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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 06-02-2006, 05:27 PM
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Bruce:

Sorry, I misread your last post. You did indeed sway crank CASE, not shaft.

That may be limited to the smaller Saitos, just checked a 72, n 91, and a 100 that I have down at the moment, none of them have the hole. It’s also possible that added drilling has been eliminated in later production. I don’t recall ever having seen it.

If it’s convenient, look at the forward end of the hole. Is it possible that it uses the swirling generated by the rotation of the cam to make a sort of centrifugal pump to make the oil circulate through the rear bearing and then through that hole back to the rear part of the crank case? Angling the hole off to the right as it goes forward would be an indication that they had this in mind. Or maybe a little ridge to the left of the hole in the cam chest. Excuse me, reverse the direction and side for the ridge, the hole would have to be under the cam.

Let me know your thoughts.

Bill.
Old 06-02-2006, 05:30 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Bruce,

I'm looking at a 100 and a old style 50 crankcase and there''s no hole at 11:00 or anywhere else around the rear bearing.

Your hole must be a casting defect?

Enjoy,

Jim
Old 06-02-2006, 05:42 PM
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Bruce:

“Self proclaimed Saito expert?” Not in my case, I just share experiences, results of investigations, and opinions clearly labeled as such.

But a lot of people want to hear my experiences, results of investigations, and opinions.

Draw your own conclusion.

>>EDIT to add: And I admit it when I make a mistake.

Bill.
Old 06-02-2006, 05:45 PM
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I would bet that the slight positive pressure in the case caused by piston blow by pushes the oil through the hole into the cam chamber and lubes the shaft and works its way to the front bearing eventually leaking out past the shield in the front bearing. There is always oil behind the drive washer and it had to come from inside the engine. I plugged the breather once just to see what would happen. The oil and blowby crap increased out the front end because it was the only way it could get out of the engine. I have been using Saito engines since they first came out. The biggest I have is the old 270. I just counted. I have 27 Saito engines including two gasoline 60's. One is a marine version. I got them when I was HShack's engine repair guy and we were the importer of Saito. Also have a couple of their steam engines.
Old 06-02-2006, 06:10 PM
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So do I and I also admit it when I make a mistake. If I have any doubts I won't say anything unless I'm sure. I used to love it when some customer would ask me a question about engines and then tell me I was wrong or argue with me after I answered him. If he didn't believe what I said, why did he ask me in the first place. I finally just quit giving advice and answering questions. Just told them that I didn't know and to read the instructions.
Old 06-02-2006, 08:11 PM
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Yup, the exact same casting flaw in three FA45's, a FA65 and three FA80T's.

Here's a piture Bill. Look close and you can see the hole just at the 11 o'clock position outside the bearing and in the cam chamber in the upper right hand corner.

There is really no way there is any kind of swirl action or pumping action in there. The oil is pushed forward by crankcase pressure.

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Old 06-02-2006, 09:18 PM
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ORIGINAL: loughbd

I have 27 Saito engines including two gasoline 60's. One is a marine version. I got them when I was HShack's engine repair guy and we were the importer of Saito.
I inquired about this claim you make of being "Hobby Shacks engine repair guy" when I last talked to Mike Greenshields a couple weeks ago. He told me that at one time HS had a short term pilot program to have local store employees repair customer engines instead of sending them to the main HS facility. He told me you were an employee at the San Diego store and that you repaired engines brought in by local customers. That you were not the main engine repair guy. Instead, it was his father.
Old 06-02-2006, 09:35 PM
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Once again I'll try. [>:] Does anyone have a manual for a Satio FA 90T that I can get through a 'pdf' format?
Dave
Old 06-02-2006, 09:37 PM
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Bruce, I took a 65 rear cover off just for you.... Guess what.... There's no oil hole to the cam box

Enjoy,

Jim
Old 06-02-2006, 10:08 PM
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Doesn't that make me a Hobby Shack repair guy??

Didn't I also say I worked at the San Diego Store??
I did it for 6 years.

I was the first of the local repair guys.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:11 PM
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Guess what? You got robbed. Mine does. I guess those are fake pictures too.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:11 PM
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The cat is out of the bag, someone is going to tell the Navy that you were moon lighting over at Hobby Shack PART-TIME in the evenings as a sales clerk.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:13 PM
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OK, not self proclaimed but they sure seem to grovel at your feet. And heaven help anyone that disagrees with you. Did you see the little hole I was talking about?
Old 06-02-2006, 10:19 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I think that we need to get back onto Saito and forget about this bickering over each others credentials.

Once again I'll try. Does anyone have a manual for a Satio FA 90T that I can get through a 'pdf' format?
Dave
Sorry dude, I don't have it. Maybe someone who is in the "know" can stop making arrows and reply to your question.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:27 PM
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Tell the Navy?? So what?? The cat is out of the bag??? The command knew. Guess what else? I worked full time at HShack. I was on permanent limited duty due to duty related injury. I was a traffic Judge for the Navy at 32nd street in San Diego. Worked two days a week. I was also full time after I retired until I was recalled to active duty. Submarine Navy. Chief Petty Officer. You better inform the Navy that a LCDR, Senior Chief, first Class Petty Officer, as well as several other military worked there. You know how many military have to moonlight (as you call it)? Most of them worked there for the great discount. Standard joke was I took my pay in engines.

When the Manager found out I was damn good repairing engines, I started repairing them at the shop rather than sending them back to Fountain Valley. That way there was no two week turn around time. I even had to repair some of the "repaired" engines that came back from Fountain Valley.

Ask John about the little red box and the Dr. is in sign.

Oh by the way my first day at HShack I was in uniform. I worked many times in uniform.

What are you?? One of those Michael Moore military haters?
Old 06-02-2006, 10:27 PM
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ORIGINAL: solafein

I think that we need to get back onto Saito and forget about this bickering over each others credentials.

Once again I'll try. Does anyone have a manual for a Satio FA 90T that I can get through a 'pdf' format?
Dave
Sorry dude, I don't have it. Maybe someone who is in the "know" can stop making arrows and reply to your question.
i agree, this is getting very un-interesting very fast
Old 06-02-2006, 10:33 PM
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Bruce:

Yes, I saw the hole. But I can’t see any greater pressure differential from the rear to the front of the hole than there would be from the rear to the front of the rear bearing. Since the vent is in the rear cover obviously there is some restriction in the vent or no oil would ever go to the front of the engine. Having a shielded front bearing gives the leakage to allow the flow which a sealed bearing would not allow. This would leave only the leakage past the tappets to give any differential at all. With the newer design having the vent in the front of the case we do have the difference, and the flow.

I just followed W8YE’s lead and pulled an FA-80 cover, no hole. Could well be as I said before, early engines only.

Bill.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:35 PM
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I have a set of instructions for a 90T. PM me your address and I'll mail you a copy.
Old 06-02-2006, 10:39 PM
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Bruce:

ORIGINAL: loughbd

I have a set of instructions for a 90T...
Thanks.

Bill.

Old 06-02-2006, 10:42 PM
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Failure to clear the engine after defeuling causes rusty bearings whether you use castor or not. I've torn down a few myself. Mostly I see a crud buildup from castor.
Old 06-02-2006, 11:10 PM
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I think the major factor here is that methanol attracts water. Whether you use 100% synthetic, a castor blend or 100% castor, you have to get the fuel out if you want to prevent rust. You are correct on that Parkerm. The use of castor in our fuel is better left to the Fuels forum where they insist on beating it untill there is nothing left.
Old 06-03-2006, 12:35 AM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

The interesting thing about the "methanol attracts water so the type of oil doesn't matter" argument is that 4-strokes seem to suffer more from bearing-rust than 2-strokes -- yet there should be *no* methanol in the crankcase of a 4-stroke but *plenty* in the crankcase of a 2-stroke.

So why don't the 2-stroker's bearings rust more than the 4-strokers if water-sodden methanol is the cause?

In regards to castor/synth, castor *does* leave a little residue -- a brown film that (to the untrained eye) can be mistaken for rust. However, this film is *highly* protective of metals, acting as an effective moisture barrier and thus actually prevents rust.

I'm not an evangalist for castor oil -- but I do use it (in small percentages) in all my engines (and in larger percentages in my bushed engines) because I appreciate that a castor-blend has some benefits over all-synth.

Yes, on a 4-stroke, castor will contribute to fouling of the exhaust valve but with the levels needed (4% or so) to provide useful protection against rust and lean-runs, that fouling is a *very* slow process. Quite frankly I'd rather tear down my engine once every three or four years to clean the exhaust valve than have to replace the bearings every season (as some folks do).

And, for what it's worth, an update on my synth/castor experiment...

The sheet of steel onto which I placed several drops of castor/methanol, synth/methanol, raw castor and raw synth shows the following to be true:

1. synthetic oil significantly (but not completely) protects plain steel from rusting in a moist environment.

2. castor oil appears to provide complete protection (at least for the duration of this test so far)

3. castor oil has no tendency to absorb water and when condensation forms, it sits on top of the castor film as small droplets.

4. synthetic oil appears to allow water to mix with it, even when present as a thin film. This mixing process turns the film cloudy and results in pin-points of rust on the metal below.

The sheet of steel is now significantly rusted except for the four patches where the oil and oil/meth was applied. The synth and synth/methanol patches are noticeably dappled with small rust spots beneeath the oil film (to about 20% coverage) while the castor and castor/methanol areas are still bright and shiny.

Conclusion: excluding the effects of combustion byproducts (which I will test next), both synth and castor provide a degree of rust protection -- whether in their raw state or when applied as a 1:4 mix with methanol. The rust protection provided by castor is significantly higher than that provided by synth however.

Bottom line: if you run castor, the use of after-run oil is not as critical as if you run pure-synth.

Next I plan to collect the oil from the vent pipe on my Saitos (castor blend), and the exhaust residue from the mufflers on a couple of my 2-strokes (which I'm prepared to run on straight synth for the experiment). This oil will be applied to a new sheet of cleaned and degreased steel which will then be exposed to moisture and variable temperatures (to below dew point). This should indicate whether there are combustion byproducts which contribute significantly to the bearing corrosion some people experience.
Old 06-03-2006, 10:42 AM
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It is an early 45. It has the bolt on head. The pressure differential would be between the outside of the front bearing and the crankcase. Not much but it would be there.

Four cycles tend to rust because of the blow by products left in the crankcase. Two cycles are always having a clean fuel charge purging any blow by products.

That one reason YS 4 cycles don't rust as much. The incoming charge flows through the crankcase.

Two cycle bearings do rust.
Old 06-03-2006, 12:10 PM
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Xjet: fantastic experiment. Thanks for taking the time, and posting your results. [sm=thumbup.gif]
Old 06-03-2006, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

XJet:

Ditto to Kmot. Very interesting.

Bill.

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