Notices
Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 01-08-2019, 05:23 AM
  #38476  
Jesse Open
 
Jesse Open's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: 30 Miles North of Canada Border
Posts: 3,791
Received 92 Likes on 84 Posts
Default

Lubriplate® is Zinc and Lithium soaps based.
Works but, in the case of cam lube, mostly solids that, like moly, get flung off quickly and wind up trapped in the oil filter on full size. It is well used on the rod and main bearings. Just a little is all it takes to help lube during the initial startup of a fresh set of plain bearings.

The Saito 300 Dave runs is a single carb version. A real beast of an engine yet very docile handling. Daves initially had a lock up problem from an earlier bearing replacement. The bearings had been cold fitted and failed to fully seat. Once we seated the bearings, it became a real sweet beast indeed. Another, rarer version, the 270 shows up at times at real deal prices.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 01-08-2019 at 05:28 AM.
Old 01-08-2019, 06:45 AM
  #38477  
acdii
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Capron, IL
Posts: 10,000
Received 97 Likes on 88 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Jesse Open
Moly is not real friendly with ring seating. I have seen people use it as a ring assembly lube with unhappy outcomes . I one case, a Triumph 500 , the engine pumped oil badly . After a 300 mile attempt at break in, I pulled the top end, flushed the moly. De-glazed the cylinder and rings. Problem solved.

With flat tappet full size gas engines ZDDP , a zinc phosphate additive is used to fortify engine oil. It imparts an extreme pressure barrier protection superior to plain synthetic or mineral oils . Makes a huge difference in the wear rate. In the case of our small engines, castor plays the same role. Just as with the ZDDP , it does not take a huge percentage to gain the benefit. IF you desire a bit of added protection , you may care to use a bit of castor for assembly. Also, about 2 to 4% castor can add a good margin of protection without the varnish associated often with full castor oil. You can just use the castor for breakin if you like. Not chisled in stone that you must use the break in oil forever! Klotz adds castor oil to their standard synthetic oil and rates a 20% improvement in the anti-wear quality of the oil.

I use 2% to 4% castor with the remainder being synthetic. Works well.
This is so true. Never use a moly based lubricant when installing pistons in a fresh engine. It is great for an assembly lube for bearings, but never where you want friction such as ring seating. Once an engine is broken in though, it is a great way to lube it, until it falls out of suspension, after that it just lays in the bottom of the pan. On the new Saito, I just put a few drops of Klotz in it before first run. After running I use engine fogger from Napa and just squirt it into the crank vent with the piston at bdc, and can get plenty in after three squirts and a few spins. Haven't had one gum up even after sitting a few years. I have even put a squirt in the carb to keep it from sticking.

BTW the stuff I used to use is no longer available.

Last edited by acdii; 01-08-2019 at 06:58 AM.
Old 01-08-2019, 12:33 PM
  #38478  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

thank you Garry for the info about LL-5 and ZDDP..



Pete buddy,, you asked, here you go, I think the Gasser sounds better,

Jim





Last edited by the Wasp; 01-08-2019 at 12:40 PM.
Old 01-08-2019, 06:43 PM
  #38479  
Glowgeek
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,622
Received 65 Likes on 65 Posts
Default 82A Update

Got the parts in for my keeboshed 82a today, sans the rod. I must say I'm not happy with the new cam, the gear teeth are .0015" eccentric to the cam pin bore. That forced the use of a standard cam housing gasket so I am unable to improve on the factory gear lash. Bummer.

I lobbed the thing together and ran Dave's break in procedure. Tweaking needles tomorrow and I'll see if it's going to be a keeper.

Also, I'm not pleased at all with the 2rs front bearing from rcbearings this time around. ATF after run oil leaks right through it. I guess I won't be able to count on the factory grease in this one.

BTW, the new cam has .0007 less lift than the og cam, manufacturing tolerance I'm sure. Otherwise the base circle of the new and old cams are identical and the int and exhaust are symmetrical. The duration and/or overlap may be different between the new and og cams but I didn't take the time to plot the profiles.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 01-08-2019 at 07:14 PM.
Old 01-09-2019, 02:47 AM
  #38480  
Hobbsy
My Feedback: (102)
 
Hobbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Default

ARO runs through all front bearings, whether in two minutes or or several hours it will get through.
Old 01-09-2019, 02:55 AM
  #38481  
Rudolph Hart
 
Rudolph Hart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,383
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Dave that engine is not in it's sweet spot needle wise and the guy is too quick on the needle,i like the pop up in the top right corner of the vid about 3/4 of the way through,another dave?

Jim thanks the guy in the first vid has a well tuned engine.
Old 01-09-2019, 03:21 AM
  #38482  
Hobbsy
My Feedback: (102)
 
Hobbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Rudolph Hart
Dave that engine is not in it's sweet spot needle wise and the guy is too quick on the needle,i like the pop up in the top right corner of the vid about 3/4 of the way through,another dave?

Jim thanks the guy in the first vid has a well tuned engine.

Hey Pete. I'm halfway through my 16 oz coffee. Actually he goes by David, he's dmrcflyr2 here. I loaned him my little 30 a while back and he did a video of it.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 01-09-2019 at 03:34 AM.
Old 01-09-2019, 10:01 AM
  #38483  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Rudolph Hart
Dave that engine is not in it's sweet spot needle wise and the guy is too quick on the needle,i like the pop up in the top right corner of the vid about 3/4 of the way through,another dave?

Jim thanks the guy in the first vid has a well tuned engine.
Pete, that first engine does sound better, more like that Gasser I saw on YT last night, and you got to love those 2 big Carbs setting there LOL

how about the sound of the 300 in that GP 1/3 Pitts flying by

Jim
Old 01-09-2019, 10:06 AM
  #38484  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Hey Dave, LOL go back and look at the white and blue Robin 2160 I posted just above, it looks like it's engine is not level, I wonder what's that about

Jim
Old 01-09-2019, 11:46 AM
  #38485  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Glowgeek, I must say thank you, in all my years I have never heard the word "eccentric" used in such a way, I have known the word, to be used for such as, to describe "Mr, Howell" , but not in the way you have used it today.,,, LOL I guess I have to get a round more LOL

"eccentric" can be used to describe a Saito engine over all, such as> the same size Saito having a more "eccentric" Cam, will turn a larger prop faster than that OS will.

yes profile is everything in a Cam, if the Base Circle is ground smaller the Lift may need to be ground smaller too, I had my best friend come to me once, he had 2 Chevy SB Cams, he asked me why the stock Pickup Truck Cam had more lift than his new Street Performance Cam had, I simply told him he was measuring it wrong, he was measuring the full diameter of the Cam, NOT the lift, so I told him the Base Circle on the Truck Cam was larger because it is a Stock Production Cam, as he could see. after the new Cam was installed he was very happy,,,,,,,,,,,,, but we won't talk (much) about the fact that he happened to get 2 of the rods swapped and that he had the wrong 350 flywheel on his 400, and that engine burned up rather quickly, like LOL only in 6 weeks LOL,,, LOL LOL the thing is, he told me he knew he had 1 Rod on the wrong Bearing Journal, it took him a while to understand the fact that if he had 1 Rod on the wrong Journal then he had to have 2 Rods on the wrong Journals,, LOL I tell you, I got a lot of crazy funny stories !! he was a bull of a man, he worked in an Automotive Spring shop, he would replace 18 Wheeler Springs weekly, after his engine burned up he bought a 400 crate engine and put his performance Cam in it, he then lifted his truck very high and mounted 40 inch Super Swampers on it, he never got to drive it because very soon after that his wife took the truck in a divorce, it's all 100% true, the poor guy.

now, you know I had to bring up Saito here didn't you LOL

Jim
Saitio Engines: are the eccentrically mechanical engines
Old 01-09-2019, 01:00 PM
  #38486  
Hobbsy
My Feedback: (102)
 
Hobbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by the Wasp
Hey Dave, LOL go back and look at the white and blue Robin 2160 I posted just above, it looks like it's engine is not level, I wonder what's that about

Jim
Yes it does, not much but noticeable.
Old 01-09-2019, 01:10 PM
  #38487  
Hobbsy
My Feedback: (102)
 
Hobbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Walther
Any out there?

Here's one: https://www.horizonhobby.com/flex-mu...z-p-sai300t782 You could get two of these and use both pressure taps or block one. This all hinges on the 270 having 14 MM exhaust. I suspect it does.

Here is a test: http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Eng...20FA-270T.html

Last edited by Hobbsy; 01-09-2019 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Add content
Old 01-09-2019, 01:36 PM
  #38488  
Glowgeek
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,622
Received 65 Likes on 65 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by the Wasp
Glowgeek, I must say thank you, in all my years I have never heard the word "eccentric" used in such a way, I have known the word, to be used for such as, to describe "Mr, Howell" , but not in the way you have used it today.,,, LOL I guess I have to get a round more LOL

"eccentric" can be used to describe a Saito engine over all, such as> the same size Saito having a more "eccentric" Cam, will turn a larger prop faster than that OS will.

yes profile is everything in a Cam, if the Base Circle is ground smaller the Lift may need to be ground smaller too, I had my best friend come to me once, he had 2 Chevy SB Cams, he asked me why the stock Pickup Truck Cam had more lift than his new Street Performance Cam had, I simply told him he was measuring it wrong, he was measuring the full diameter of the Cam, NOT the lift, so I told him the Base Circle on the Truck Cam was larger because it is a Stock Production Cam, as he could see. after the new Cam was installed he was very happy,,,,,,,,,,,,, but we won't talk (much) about the fact that he happened to get 2 of the rods swapped and that he had the wrong 350 flywheel on his 400, and that engine burned up rather quickly, like LOL only in 6 weeks LOL,,, LOL LOL the thing is, he told me he knew he had 1 Rod on the wrong Bearing Journal, it took him a while to understand the fact that if he had 1 Rod on the wrong Journal then he had to have 2 Rods on the wrong Journals,, LOL I tell you, I got a lot of crazy funny stories !! he was a bull of a man, he worked in an Automotive Spring shop, he would replace 18 Wheeler Springs weekly, after his engine burned up he bought a 400 crate engine and put his performance Cam in it, he then lifted his truck very high and mounted 40 inch Super Swampers on it, he never got to drive it because very soon after that his wife took the truck in a divorce, it's all 100% true, the poor guy.

now, you know I had to bring up Saito here didn't you LOL

Jim
Saitio Engines: are the eccentrically mechanical engines

lol, great story Jim and your sense of humor is alive and well.
Old 01-09-2019, 01:55 PM
  #38489  
Glowgeek
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,622
Received 65 Likes on 65 Posts
Default

So I did some needle tweaking on the 82 with the new cam and lifters today and got it to peak at 9700 but it was not steady so I richened it up some and listened for a while. It would climb to 9600 then down to 9400 and blow more smoke, then back up to 9600 momentarily and then drop rpm again, sometimes down to 9300 and smoke heavily. What the heck? It must be fueling or glow plug I thought. The tank and lines checked good so I tried a new plug, No go so I thoroughly cleaned and rebuilt the carb and checked for leaks. Same thing, what the heck?! Turns out the darned intake valve is leaking again, intermittently! AAAAAAARRRRRRG!!!! I'm sorry, I just don't get how that can happen. Back when I swapped intake and exhaust valves the leak did not follow the valve, it still leaked at the intake port until I gave it a light lapping with polishing compound. Apparently that only stopped the leak until I ran the engine? Whaaaat? The valve is not sticking and the lash is set to .002" on the money. The valve springs feel equally strong and I don't see any cracks in cylinder casting either. I am all out of ideas.

Rant over, lol

Lonnie

Last edited by Glowgeek; 01-09-2019 at 03:42 PM.
Old 01-09-2019, 06:53 PM
  #38490  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Glowgeek
lol, great story Jim and your sense of humor is alive and well.
thank you Lonnie, I have many more stories about him, maybe I will type one out tomorrow or this week end.


Jim

Last edited by the Wasp; 01-09-2019 at 06:56 PM.
Old 01-09-2019, 07:20 PM
  #38491  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Lonnie,, you swapped the valve, so we don't feel it's the valve,, did you replace the valve springs ?? I can't remember,,

I asked because> once a valve spring floats (rather do to over revving or just because it is old), then every time it floats again it will start floating every time at a lower and lower RPM, so if a spring first floated at 11,000 the then the next time it will float at a lower RPM, and the next time, and next time lower and lower,, and you will have no idea how long it has been going on because the engine was in the air,
you never know what size prop the original owner used on it, he could have been over revving it a long time

can you replace the spring ?

or, it really could be that the Valve Guide is warn and the valve is vibrating at that RPM, that would also allow the valve cavity to suck air and or oil threw the Guide into the cylinder, note that those valves were very ugly before you cleaned them

Jim

Last edited by the Wasp; 01-09-2019 at 07:26 PM. Reason: sorry for the edits, some times I screw up, that's what my wife tells me, and the cat too
Old 01-10-2019, 04:06 AM
  #38492  
Glowgeek
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,622
Received 65 Likes on 65 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by the Wasp
Lonnie,, you swapped the valve, so we don't feel it's the valve,, did you replace the valve springs ?? I can't remember,,

I asked because> once a valve spring floats (rather do to over revving or just because it is old), then every time it floats again it will start floating every time at a lower and lower RPM, so if a spring first floated at 11,000 the then the next time it will float at a lower RPM, and the next time, and next time lower and lower,, and you will have no idea how long it has been going on because the engine was in the air,
you never know what size prop the original owner used on it, he could have been over revving it a long time

can you replace the spring ?

or, it really could be that the Valve Guide is warn and the valve is vibrating at that RPM, that would also allow the valve cavity to suck air and or oil threw the Guide into the cylinder, note that those valves were very ugly before you cleaned them

Jim
Thanks Jim. I suppose it could be weak springs causing fluctuations at 9700 rpm. I have never read or heard of saito springs going weak but I've not read them all. Has this happened to others? I have way older model saitos than this 82 that run 10050 static with no issues using the original springs. Just saying.

This appeared to be a low hour engine, everything looked pretty clean inside and out. So was the P51 it was mounted on. The cylinder walls indicate low hours as well ie many areas that still have remnants of cross hatch honing. It had a 15x6 wood prop on it when purchased, I assumed that's what caused the crank pin/con rod problem ie most likely overloaded. The wood prop appeared new with only one set of prop drive washer impressions, those matched. True, no way to know if it had a smaller prop on it at some point so it could have been over revved. The valves feel nice and snug in their guides, almost undetectable side play so I'm not leaning towards the guides as an issue.

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention yesterday: When coming off idle to full throttle it doesn't always reach the same peak. Sometimes it revs straight up to 9700, sometimes only to 9300-9400 with more smoke. When it only revs to 9300-9400 sometimes it will clear out and rev on up to 9700 but most of the time it just sits there smoking like crazy. Valve float could definitely cause those symptoms eg weak springs but my known intermittent leaky intake valve problem could too. Doubtful that new springs would fix the valve leak imo. I'm in a quandary. More money, more money!! Lol. I have half a mind to sell the money pit and buy a new 82.

Saddened,

Lonnie

Last edited by Glowgeek; 01-10-2019 at 04:38 AM.
Old 01-10-2019, 05:34 AM
  #38493  
Jesse Open
 
Jesse Open's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: 30 Miles North of Canada Border
Posts: 3,791
Received 92 Likes on 84 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Glowgeek
. I'm in a quandary. More money, more money!! Lol. I have half a mind to sell the money pit and buy a new 82.

Saddened,

Lonnie
Hmmmmm,
Sounds familiar
Old 01-10-2019, 09:50 AM
  #38494  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default


Lonnie, I sure do understand that money thing, after replacing the bearings in my OS 61FX I had found running it on the bench, that it also needed a new liner and piston, and a new liner and piston from a shop is $115, I saw a new set sold on RCG for $40, well I looked on Tower's site and found that 115 price. I just thought "my God, with what little power that engine put's out, made the engine well-not worth that price" so I bought a new HP 61 to replace it, the HP was $125 more than the OS liner and piston, but man, is this engine well worth the difference, note that the price of the HP was raised $60 after I ordered it LOL, see my HP.

sorry Pete, but I just had to have the 2-stroke my friend.

going back to your 82, if it's not the springs, I still have to wonder if that Valve Seat in the head is too thin where it faces the exhaust valve

see my link, the springs are only $9, but it's shipping that will kill you
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...3A-ab-saie082b

Jim

Last edited by the Wasp; 01-10-2019 at 09:58 AM. Reason: boy did I screw up this time, but it's because I am in such a good mood
Old 01-10-2019, 10:29 AM
  #38495  
Jesse Open
 
Jesse Open's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: 30 Miles North of Canada Border
Posts: 3,791
Received 92 Likes on 84 Posts
Default

Lapping of valves is a thin balance. Better underdone than overdone!
If anything, the seats after the lapping job should not have narrowed. If overdone ( very common) the harder surface will cut a ditch into the mating area. We saw this quite often in the shop when following up some backyard valve jobs.

Not saying "likely" yet it remains possible.
Old 01-10-2019, 12:09 PM
  #38496  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

Gary, I agree, I have done some valve seating, I only point that seat out because I have never seen one uneven like that

Jim
Old 01-10-2019, 03:24 PM
  #38497  
Glowgeek
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,622
Received 65 Likes on 65 Posts
Default Saito 82 Update

I ran the 82 again today. To my surprise (not really) the intake valve wasn't leaking before the start up but did start leaking once up to running temp. I let it sit for a few hours and the leaking stopped. I started it up and no leaking even when up to temp (again, not surprised). I have found the perfect fix, I put a new fa82 on order. That said, I feel like giving it one more shot so I threw in a set of springs on the engine order. I really don't think the springs will fix it but what the heck, shipping was free and Jim told me to. Lol, just kidding Jim.

Hey, thanks to all here who contributed, I really appreciate your expertise and patience.
Old 01-10-2019, 07:49 PM
  #38498  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

so it leaks when it gets hot ! did you check this when the engine was shut off, I mean, if the engine is hot and not running and you turn it over by hand and the valve leaks I would think the spring is not the problem here, so this brings me back to the Seat


thanks to all here who contributed, I really appreciate your expertise and patience.
hey, I got patience but no expertise, but your welcome anyways
Jim
Old 01-10-2019, 07:58 PM
  #38499  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 5,394
Likes: 0
Received 41 Likes on 39 Posts
Default

I put a new fa82 on order
man, some guy just sold a Saito 90 Twin on RC Groups for $200, he didn't say if it was new or used, but it had been started

Jim

Last edited by the Wasp; 01-10-2019 at 08:06 PM.
Old 01-11-2019, 01:55 AM
  #38500  
Rudolph Hart
 
Rudolph Hart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,383
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by the Wasp
man, some guy just sold a Saito 90 Twin on RC Groups for $200, he didn't say if it was new or used, but it had been started

Jim
Jim i'll have a wild guess and say it's a used engine seeing how the guy said it's been started,just helpin out

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.