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Old 03-14-2019, 03:49 AM
  #39376  
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Yep, and there it is Dave, a dip in the torque curve right where apc 14x6 props run on my 82s. That said, it looks like there is room for some unloading of the 14x6 in the air with a draggy airframe.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 03-14-2019 at 03:51 AM.
Old 03-14-2019, 04:17 AM
  #39377  
Jesse Open
 
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek View Post
My battery tenders do have an led that indicates when the charger goes into "battery maintenance mode" but nothing to indicate if it ever turns off completely when needed. Hmmmm
Exactly, the only way to know is with an ammeter in line. I was surprised at what I often saw when the "maintainer" was in the "float" mode. Some would do an "off cycle" of maybe 10 minutes. Seemed they would then sample voltage and ,if called for, turn on again. Problem is, that voltage varires by temperature as well as general battery health. During winter months with batteries out doors, that sample voltage is far different from a typical 70F day. Temperature compensation would help but that still ignores battery condition. Neither are likely in a mid priced charger. Yet others or malfunctioning "maintainers" would drop to a regulated, fixed voltage to "float. The resulting current would follow battery condition and temperature but there was always a current flow at some level, not good over the long periods.
Pb batteries, especially AGM tend to be more tolerant of an occasional light overcharge than a maintained "trickle" charge over an extended period.

The battery maintainers that were run through a timer that came on once/week, 1 hour at a time did well with the conditions we were under. The auto charger would terminate the high rate charge very quickly, yet the trickle could not remain on long enough to do any real damage. Even less than once/week would probably work well but I no longer simply hook them up, turn them on and walk away. Yep, timers can fail too but the reliability factor remains well improved overall. Haven't dried out a battery yet with the timed charge.

Saito content:

That Saito control line info was dandy.
Dave, can you post a link to the complete 82 test?

Last edited by Jesse Open; 03-14-2019 at 04:24 AM.
Old 03-14-2019, 04:26 AM
  #39378  
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Yes sir, that's easy: Saito FA-82a
Old 03-14-2019, 07:20 AM
  #39379  
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The reason I got the Stanley is because it is supposed to turn off, and it puts a very slight load on the battery by keeping the display lit. My previous one did not turn off, which is what killed a cell.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:10 AM
  #39380  
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Zero current, positive or negative between top offs is the best bet.
Even the type that are supposed to turn off do not always do that.

There is a very inexpensive board on eBay that will disconnect the charger from line voltage via a mechanical relay when the battery voltage comes to full charge. This is ok MOST of the time. In the event of a shorted or weak cell, the battery will never make it to full voltage. When this happens, a standard charger will just keep on charging and begin to boil off electrolyte. Bad deal. A timer as back up will terminate the charge regardless.

I never leave a battery on charge without a time out limit of some type. YRMV ,just relating what I prefer.

This board :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/XH-M601-Bat...item25eb7240cb

Is made to turn off the AC current to the charger when the battery comes up to voltage. The part I prefer to eliminate is that it automatically re-connects when the battery voltage drops. It is easy to make a latching relay initial turn on that allows for a single charge cycle without the automatic turn on feature. I can supply a schematic if there is any interest. By adding a switch you can have the one-shot or automatic feature if desired.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 03-14-2019 at 08:47 AM.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:56 AM
  #39381  
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Almost twins, 50 on the left, 56 on the right, they're looking good now.. The muffler on the 50 actually belongs to the 56.
My 310 amp NAPA garden tractor battery is on it's fifth year with a Battery tender plus on it 24 and 7 when not in use, my unmentionable's original 200 amp battery went 7 years with the last 5 having a Battery Tender Plus on it 24 and 7 when sitting in my shop. The new 4.5 years ago, 310 AGM in my unmentionable is on it's 4.5th year of Battery Tender Plus 24 and 7 care.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 03-14-2019 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Add content
Old 03-14-2019, 09:08 AM
  #39382  
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When in the car, there is always a draw on the battery for all the keep alive components. Next battery is getting a disconnect switch installed with it, charge one and done.
Old 03-14-2019, 09:34 AM
  #39383  
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post


Almost twins, 50 on the left, 56 on the right, they're looking good now.. The muffler on the 50 actually belongs to the 56.
My 310 amp NAPA garden tractor battery is on it's fifth year with a Battery tender plus on it 24 and 7 when not in use, my unmentionable's original 200 amp battery went 7 years with the last 5 having a Battery Tender Plus on it 24 and 7 when sitting in my shop. The new 4.5 years ago, 310 AGM in my unmentionable is on it's 4.5th year of Battery Tender Plus 24 and 7 care.
Nice set of almost bookends. Now all you need is matching airplanes!
Old 03-14-2019, 09:53 AM
  #39384  
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
When in the car, there is always a draw on the battery for all the keep alive components. Next battery is getting a disconnect switch installed with it, charge one and done.
Yes sir,

That is the main problem with modern vehicles. The AGM batteries work very well in long term cold storage without need for maintenance charge up to about 6 months, but only when there is no outside current being drawn.

BTW, I don't recall implying or inferring ALL batteries using battery tenders fail. Just relating that I have seen quite a few that have. The AGMs I ran in my Moto Guzzi and several other mo********s as well as garden tractors etc, never saw a Battery Tender and lasted at least 10 years...

Last edited by Jesse Open; 03-14-2019 at 10:02 AM.
Old 03-14-2019, 10:19 AM
  #39385  
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Dave, I have a question about that prop/RPM list, why is it that the 11X11 turns more RPM than the 11X10,, could those numbers be mixed up, or is it that the props profiles are so different ??

Jim
Old 03-14-2019, 12:17 PM
  #39386  
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I had a friend who passed awy some time ago that had a boat docked at one of the larger recreation lakes in the state. I remember he had the bilge pump hooked up to a small lawn tractor battery with a trickle charge attached. He would be back home in the off season and never go near it for months and would come back to find the pump doing its job. The battery lasted for a good 5 to 7 years that I knew of. Poor guy had plans to retire but before he could he suffered a massive heart attack and dropped to floor dead. He use to joke he looked forward to alzheimers in his advance years because then there were no old jokes. I guess the grim reaper got the last laugh on that one.
Old 03-14-2019, 01:48 PM
  #39387  
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Crunchy, in case you haven't visited the spectreflight site here's a review for a 150s with prop/rpm data.

Saito FA-150S (2)
Old 03-14-2019, 02:34 PM
  #39388  
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Originally Posted by the Wasp View Post
Dave, I have a question about that prop/RPM list, why is it that the 11X11 turns more RPM than the 11X10,, could those numbers be mixed up, or is it that the props profiles are so different ??

Jim
My guess would be that the prop shown is a Grey Graupner, and they came in an 11 x 11, not all do, if true the Graupner would turn a hundred or so less than an APC or other. A Pro Zinger would turn a 100 or so faster. That' all guess work though, sorry.
Old 03-14-2019, 02:41 PM
  #39389  
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Originally Posted by FlyerInOKC View Post
Nice set of almost bookends. Now all you need is matching airplanes!
I have two LT 40's one of which is in Pete's favorite green although it's sort of set up for the FG 11. Thinking, thinking.
Old 03-14-2019, 05:52 PM
  #39390  
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek View Post
Something to note when looking at Torque & HP graphs above is that the 62 and 72 share the same cam gear. That cam appears to be much better suited for the 62, having a much flatter torque curve, allowing it to run a much wider range of props and achieve hp at higher rpms. Now here's the scary thing, the fa82 uses the same cam! This may explain why both of my 82s are so prop sensitive
that FA62/82 Cam (SAI6535A), is also used in the 100, no-wonder it works so good in the 62. it looks like a Cam upgrade would be vary easily done if Saito cared to do for the 100..
but I guess then people would be putting that upgraded Cam in their 82s, 72s, and 62s Haahaa

Jim

Last edited by the Wasp; 03-14-2019 at 06:05 PM.
Old 03-14-2019, 08:45 PM
  #39391  
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Default Love my Saitos

I have my share too..From 56 to 150 size..
multiple 82s and 100s and 3 72,s..Best nitro 4 stroke made..I have a few OS 4 strokes yet no comparison..Saitos are easy to rebuild and parts are available even for the old ones.
GLOW NATION!!
Old 03-14-2019, 10:11 PM
  #39392  
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek View Post
Crunchy, in case you haven't visited the spectreflight site here's a review for a 150s with prop/rpm data.

Saito FA-150S (2)
intersting read
great info
Old 03-15-2019, 12:23 AM
  #39393  
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post
I have two LT 40's one of which is in Pete's favorite green although it's sort of set up for the FG 11. Thinking, thinking.
Dave i promise to almost never say a bad word about the unmentionable if you refrain from posting a pic of the green Lt 40,unless it has a pretty gk in it maybe.Since the weather should be starting to improve over your way maybe you could re charge the battery by riding it.

Thanks for posting the hp and torque graphs guys,didn't realise that there was that much difference in the small blocks,interesting reading for the weekend.Will save me watching concrete dry while the australian formula one round dominates tv here this weekend,boring as bat poo
Old 03-15-2019, 02:36 AM
  #39394  
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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hart View Post
Dave i promise to almost never say a bad word about the unmentionable if you refrain from posting a pic of the green Lt 40,unless it has a pretty gk in it maybe.Since the weather should be starting to improve over your way maybe you could re charge the battery by riding it.

Thanks for posting the hp and torque graphs guys,didn't realise that there was that much difference in the small blocks,interesting reading for the weekend.Will save me watching concrete dry while the australian formula one round dominates tv here this weekend,boring as bat poo
Sounds like the Aussie equal to US NASCAR "racing"..
Old 03-15-2019, 02:44 AM
  #39395  
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At least at Nascar events I can see who's who on the track and who's leading the race. Formula 1 is so fast I couldn't see anything. Yes, boring as watching grass grow.
Old 03-15-2019, 03:18 AM
  #39396  
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Originally Posted by the Wasp View Post
that FA62/82 Cam (SAI6535A), is also used in the 100, no-wonder it works so good in the 62. it looks like a Cam upgrade would be vary easily done if Saito cared to do for the 100..
but I guess then people would be putting that upgraded Cam in their 82s, 72s, and 62s Haahaa

Jim
Interesting Jim, that art # fits all these engines:
Saito Engines Cam Gear, Right: G-K,DD,EE,AS,BM,BN,BV,BS,CA SAI6535A is compatible with SAIE056B, SAIE062A, SAIE062ACL, SAIE062AGK, SAIE065, SAIE072B, SAIE072BGK, SAIE072CL, SAIE072GK, SAIE082A, SAIE082B, SAIE082BGK, SAIE091S, SAIE091SGK, SAIE100, SAIE100GK, SAIE115, SAIE115GK, SAIE125A, SAIE125AGK, SAIE170R3, SAIE182TD, SAIE200R3, SAIEG11, SAIEG14B, SAIEG14C, SAIEG17, SAIEG20, SAIEG21, SAIEG33R3, SAIEG60R3

I put one of them in the 50 I reassembled yesterday and when I snugged the cam cover down the crank was difficult to turn. I added a second gasket, no more problem. I need to think this through. As my grandson would say, sumpings wong.
Old 03-15-2019, 03:34 AM
  #39397  
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post
Interesting Jim, that part # fits all these engines:
Saito Engines Cam Gear, Right: G-K,DD,EE,AS,BM,BN,BV,BS,CA SAI6535A is compatible with SAIE056B, SAIE062A, SAIE062ACL, SAIE062AGK, SAIE065, SAIE072B, SAIE072BGK, SAIE072CL, SAIE072GK, SAIE082A, SAIE082B, SAIE082BGK, SAIE091S, SAIE091SGK, SAIE100, SAIE100GK, SAIE115, SAIE115GK, SAIE125A, SAIE125AGK, SAIE170R3, SAIE182TD, SAIE200R3, SAIEG11, SAIEG14B, SAIEG14C, SAIEG17, SAIEG20, SAIEG21, SAIEG33R3, SAIEG60R3

I put one of them in the 50 I reassembled yesterday and when I snugged the cam cover down the crank was difficult to turn. I added a second gasket, no more problem. I need to think this through. As my grandson would say, sumpings wong.

The 50 uses the same crankshaft pinion, cam gear housing and case size as the 56 so yeah, it should have worked fine. Strange.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 03-15-2019 at 03:49 AM.
Old 03-15-2019, 03:44 AM
  #39398  
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Some info says that Sai5035 is the correct cam for the 50. I dunno.

Also, it appears that the big block engines have about 20 degrees less overlap than the 56 sized blocks, as in 70 degrees overlap for the 150 and 90 degrees for the 56. Not very many of the testers measured it.

This cam will fit the old 40: https://www.horizonhobby.com/cam-gea...iijjkk-sai5035 Jim's part number will not.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 03-15-2019 at 03:48 AM.
Old 03-15-2019, 03:56 AM
  #39399  
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post
Some info says that Sai5035 is the correct cam for the 50. I dunno.

Also, it appears that the big block engines have about 20 degrees less overlap than the 56 sized blocks, as in 70 degrees overlap for the 150 and 90 degrees for the 56. Not very many of the testers measured it.

This cam will fit the old 40: https://www.horizonhobby.com/cam-gea...iijjkk-sai5035 Jim's part number will not.
Maybe the surface for the cam gear housing was milled slightly lower for the 50 than for the 56 thru 100 cases. The cams are different but shimming the cam gear housing should work fine.
Old 03-15-2019, 04:30 AM
  #39400  
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Dave, I recall seeing a pic of a twin you rebuilt about a year or less ago. The numbers on the cams you used were the wrong parts as well. I do forget which engine but I asked and few times about the discrepency and got no response. IIRC you may not have run that one yet.

The "maybe" question could be answered by measurements, The crank centerline to cam housing face measurements between engines compared. The gear measurements are better made by measuring over gaging wires placed between the gear teeth . This is called "DOP for "Dimension Over Pins" Simple outside diameter measurements can be misleading.
You probably have it solved, just some tips regarding info gathering to verify the real differences.

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