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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 07-29-2006, 03:37 AM
  #3951  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

No real point to this post, just thought some might like to see the FA-82a engines as delivered, and after they have been prepared for the airplane.

Couldn't stand to look at the plain metal fins.

Haw.

Bill.

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Old 07-29-2006, 04:19 AM
  #3952  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

A few notes on the new Saito engines that I just got.

There have been reports of finding the push rods wrong side up causing failure of the adjuster cups. All four were correctly positioned in this pair.

No thrust washers on the rockers, this has been reported before.

The valve clearances were all over the place, ranging from 0.002 up to 0.012 on the loosest.

Saito looks to have upgraded the bearings – the rear have plastic ball retainers instead of the stamped steel we’ve seen in the past. I don’t know what material, hope it’s polyolefin. The front bearing has a genuine seal, it’s not a shielded bearing. I didn’t pull the crank or the cam so I don’t know if it’s single or double sealed.

W8YE Jim has posted that the late FA-30 has no gasket on the cam box. As I said I didn’t pull the cam or crank, but the cam box looks really close, there may well be no gasket there. One of the engines feels like the timing gears are a little tight. We’ll see.

Bill
Old 07-29-2006, 05:01 AM
  #3953  
Blisster
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: William Robison

[b]A few notes on the new Saito engines that I just got.

There have been reports of finding the push rods wrong side up causing failure of the adjuster cups.

Does this pertain to this particular engine or are there others finding this? Maybe I should look closer at my new one, or is this something that would have shown up by now? (I have run it in for about 45 minutes)

Also, on the subject of valve gap adjustment, could you point me to the post number in the thread of the best instructions for the actual adjustment. The Saito book lacks badly in that department. And I have been busy organizing my mountain of debris all night and am exhausted and don't feel like surfing the net for it. Earlier today when I ran it with the 30% Cool Power for the first time I only checked them, not actually tried to move anything.

Do I loosen the horizontally placed screw that is the pivot point for the rocker arm. (I think they would call it the rocker arm screw) first? And I get the idea with the included little wrench on the lock-nut, but am I to assume that I then would turn the inner hex head part with the included Allen wrench to adjust the gap? Which does the adjusting, the outer with the nifty wrench or the inner with the Allen? That's what I really want to know. I would assume that if it is like the valve adjustments I have done on big stuff that the inner part would be the adjusable part and the outer the locking part but it was getting fairly dark and I didn't have my reading glasses on me so I really couldn't see much. It really wouldn't have mattered anyway, if I HAD had my glasses they would've been all covered with castor and synthetic oil!
Better get some shut-eye. We are hosting a jumbo fly-in in Tulsa this weekend and my son and I are wanting to attend. I will look forward to the responses to my bleary eyed rant. Sorry gents, but I'm a true tail dragger at the moment. Ah, but everything looks so good now and I found almost all the lost stuff!
Thanks,
Bliss
Old 07-29-2006, 07:03 AM
  #3954  
William Robison
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Bliss:

The push rod has a taper on ione end, if you can see the taper it's in correctly. See picture.

You should not loosen the rocker pivot screw, but it’s a good idea to be sure it’s tight. Be sure the screwdriver fits well when you do – I have one ground just to fit – it is an odd size.

Turn the crank in the normal direction, you’ll see the exhaust rocker open its valve, then as it closes the intake will start moving. Pull the glow plug, use a toothpick (or similar) to feel the piston position. When both valves are slightly open the piston should be at the top of its stroke. Rock the crank, check the piston position and be sure the valves are equally open with the piston at top dead center (TDC). This is, incidentally, also a good check of the cam timing after reassembly. If the cam is off as much as one tooth the piston will be off enough to notice easily.

From this TDC point with the valves both open a little turn the crank one full turn and bring the piston back to TDC. You now have the piston at the top, between the compression and power strokes. This is the position for valve adjustment on a Saito engine.

Use a feeler strip of 0.0015” thickness. Remember the valve springs aren’t as strong as the ones in your car, just get a little drag on it and tighten the lock nut. When the nut is tightened there will be an amount of thread distortion that will loosen the adjustment, after it’s tightened there should still be a slight drag on your feeler. Do both valves, douse the valve gear with after run oil and out the rocker covers back on.

Go fly.

Bill.

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:12 AM
  #3955  
gjeffers
 
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

someone should be using a little castor in that saito
Old 07-29-2006, 08:13 AM
  #3956  
mstcitabria
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Bill,
That first pic of the rocker arm is sprouting hair! You must have got your afterrun oil mixed up with some hair tonic, lol...............mstcitabria
Old 07-29-2006, 12:34 PM
  #3957  
Blisster
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I wasn't sure whether I was seeing hairs or not. I was actually hoping it wasn't steel wool! Ouch!

Hello Gary, you won't tell anyone in the other thread about the comment I made here about the (UCD) plane becoming secondary after getting the Saito. [sm=rolleyes.gif]

Thanks bill for the crystal clear instructions and for the even more clear (yet hair raising) pics. I'll check to see that the push rods are in correctly this evening, my son and I are off to the Jumbo Fly-In here today and tomorrow.

Bye now,
Bliss
Old 07-29-2006, 01:09 PM
  #3958  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

All of you should know by now that Saito engines are supplied in a "Hairy" state of tune, and any picture of a "Hairy" engine should have at least one hair in it. Haw.

But they're not as hairy as I am. Haw again.

Bliss:

You're welcome, enjoy your weeekend.

Bill.

>>EDIT - added a picture. wr.

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Old 07-29-2006, 01:32 PM
  #3959  
JPal101
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Someone tell me more about these velocity stacks you are using, would it be useful on my 72 or my 100's or 125's? if so, does anyone have the part #?
Old 07-29-2006, 03:12 PM
  #3960  
IronCross
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Bill
Were you ever in the cough drop business with your brother ? Guess I am kind of dateing myself now...
Old 07-29-2006, 03:24 PM
  #3961  
butchn
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

He Bill #331 here - got a quick question. A guy I know has a Saito 150 he wants to sell and says it is a "high cam" version. Is there a way to tell by just looking at it? I has the older brown box and the longer style muffler. Thanks
Butch
Old 07-29-2006, 06:50 PM
  #3962  
Blisster
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: JPal101

Someone tell me more about these velocity stacks you are using, would it be useful on my 72 or my 100's or 125's? if so, does anyone have the part #?


Hello JPal101, here's the scoop from Saito themselves:

http://saito-engines.info/special_tricks.html

SPECIAL TRICKS

1. Installing a velocity stack on a Saito-82a engine: A number of Saito engines are now sold without an intake velocity stack, presumably to save production costs. The addition of a velocity stack on the carb inlet helps stop some fuel spray coming out the carb when the engine is running. If you want to add a velocity stack to the Saito-82a you will need to buy the velocity stack (part number SAI50GK93) plus an O-ring. I got an O-ring from a local hardware store with dimensions 5/16” inner diameter, 7/16” diameter outside diameter. The picture at left below shows the parts; the picture below on the right shows the engine after installation. This is probably not recommended by Saito, nor for ‘klutzes’ who can not use a screw-driver without stripping the threads in the plastic back-plate. This particular intake velocity stack part should also fit the the Saito 50, 56, 65, 80, 91, 72 engines but I have not tried using it on those other engines.
My Horizon part number and price was:

"Horizon Hobby, Inc." <[email protected]>

Intake Velocity Stack-K,EE (SAI50GK93) 1 @ $6.75
$6.75
Out of stock. Item will be backordered.

Items (1)
$6.75
Shipping (Ground)
7.99
Sub-Total
$14.74


Hope it helps! Should be fairly definitive however! The back ordered stacks are said (by Horizon) to be ready to ship in mid August. One has heard an even more meaningful date which would be about 7-8 days from now by my calculations.

The jumbo fly in was a blast today. I will be posting a few pics on the U-Can-Do 46 thread! TONS of big birds and even more big burns! (It was about 110 on the tarmac and in full sun with winds of about 15 gusting to 25!!! I stayed in any shade I could find, thank GOs for the pop-up!

Bye now,
Bliss
Old 07-29-2006, 06:55 PM
  #3963  
RVM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

That's pretty sweet!


ORIGINAL: JettPilot


ORIGINAL: William Robison

JP:

A little more information, please. First, why do you want to fly a FA-56 powered plane for 45 minutes without landing?


Bill.
[/b]
If you watch the video in the link below, you will understand why I want to fly for so long without landing . I am building a smaller version of what you see in the video, powered by the Saito 56. My typical flight is an hour with the setup in the video, I hope that with a Velocity stack and filter I can get almost as long with the smaller plane and the .56

http://media.putfile.com/RCVideoCrossCountryFlying

JettPilot
Old 07-29-2006, 07:08 PM
  #3964  
RVM
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Actually flew my Saito .91 today. It had 48oz. of fuel through it on a bench, but I'd never tached it then. Just let it run rich per Saitos instructions at a quick idle. Before flying it today, however, it peaked at about 9400 RPM. Before the second flight it peaked around 9480 RPM. I backed it down and flew it at around 9000-9100 RPM. Transition was flawless. Goes from idle to full as quick as the servo can move and it didn't stutter or cough or anything. I haven't adjusted the low-end needle.

Anyway, I just wanted to see what you folks here thought of those numbers. Will it get any better with a bit more fuel or is this engine pretty well broken in? I tell you one thing, I'd never used an engine larger than an old school Supertigre .61 with an APC 12x9. This is A LOT more thrust and I was not expecting it.

Saito .91
Peak 9480 RPM on a Hangar 9 tachometer.
20% nitro, 15% oil (12% synthetic, 3ish% castor) homebrew.
APC 14x7 prop, no spinner.
Whatever my altitude here in Starkville, MS. is.

I think I'm going to order the Fromeco TNC tach. I don't really like this Hangar9 tach much. I had to hold it like 2" from the prop to get a consistent reading.
Old 07-29-2006, 07:16 PM
  #3965  
Blisster
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

My only concern is oil content. Saito says 20% minimum, I have heard 18% but 15% oil is a bit light isn't it? What do I know?! My 82 LOVES 30% nitro/22 oil is all I know! It spanks!![sm=spinnyeyes.gif](Cool Power heli fuel straight from the bottle)

Bliss
Old 07-29-2006, 07:20 PM
  #3966  
RVM
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I broke the .91 in on 12% full synthetic. The guy who made my fuel has been running Saitos on 20% nitro, 12% full synthetic for years and years with no problems of any kind. In fact most of the people in his club use it with no problems. I added the 3% castor (Klotz BeNOL) myself for a little extra protection and safety. I hate the goo and the varnishing on the engine, but I hate rusty bearings and seized rods a lot more. Since I'm new to 4-strokes, I figure I'll err on the side of safety. Besides, to my surprise, pure castor oil is a very pretty, very deep red color, and adding it to the fuel turned it from yellowish brown to a really nice rose color. That and it smells great.
Old 07-29-2006, 07:40 PM
  #3967  
Blisster
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I agree, I've always had a passion for the smell of castor oil and nitro methane coming from the business end of an R/C motor myself!!![sm=tongue.gif]
Old 07-29-2006, 08:37 PM
  #3968  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

>>> When the nut is tightened there will be an amount of thread distortion that will loosen the adjustment, after it’s tightened there should still be a slight drag on your feeler. >>>

Bill, do you mind if I add that when finished and the feeler guage is removed, it is good "insurance" to wiggle the rocker arm and verify that you did indeed wind up with a little clearance?

Thanks,

Ernie
Old 07-29-2006, 10:57 PM
  #3969  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Catch-up time again.

IC:

The Robison Brothers, my father and uncles, were never in the cough drop business. That was the Smith Brothers. The Robisons were in more lucrative fields, thank you.

butchn:

Easy to tell apart. The push rod tubes go all the way down flush to the top of the cam box with the older cam, the “High” cam has the tappet guides sticking out the top. See picture. High cam type is on the right. With the high cam you can still see the lump about half way up, or you can just slide the rubbers up and look at the guides.

Bliss:

In re the stack - Not intending sour grapes, but a lot of the info on that site has appeared after it was posted here. One thing they still don’t tell you is to use the Bru-Line fine mesh air filter – when set properly your fuel consumption will go down, endurance will increase, and you plane will stay a lot cleaner.

I don’t think I’ve ever run a Saito on 20% oil, but I’ve always used a castor blend too.
RVM:

Your FA-91 numbers look good. Enjoy.

You can run the Saito engines on pure synthetic and have good engine life, but you’ll have better life, a lot lower cam and tappet wear, using a castor blend in your fuel. This has been proven, but the synthetic boys are in denial.

Ernie:

You are more than welcome to mention the “Wiggle” check. But with 0.0015” clearance it can be hard to tell it’s there. Play with it when you know it’s adjusted correctly, you’ll learn the feel.

Bill.

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Old 07-29-2006, 11:10 PM
  #3970  
rlmcnii
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

RVM,

WR did not mention this, but if you have not adjusted your LS needle at all and it is still at its new setting, it is time to start adjusting! You will probably be able to lean it out quite a bit. Your fuel-burn rate will decrease drastically. Saitos run very well with the LS set way too rich...they just make a lot os smoke and burn a lot of fuel doing so.

Lean it until the engine won't transition, or won't transition smoothly from idle. When you get it lean enough to make it hesitate coming out of idle, enrich about 1/8 of a turn and try again. Get it just rich enough to transition and no more.

N.B. Adjust the LS needle ONLY after the HS has been set. It sounds as if you have the HS set pretty well.

Enjoy your .91.
Old 07-29-2006, 11:14 PM
  #3971  
JPal101
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I feel like my question is being ignored, I have 5 Saitos, that should be enough for a little respect
Old 07-29-2006, 11:19 PM
  #3972  
JPal101
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

My apologies, blisster did ans. my question
Old 07-29-2006, 11:20 PM
  #3973  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

JPal101, Blisster did a pretty good job of answering your velocity stack question on the previous page with this post: Post #: 3823 (I type too slow.)
Old 07-29-2006, 11:23 PM
  #3974  
RVM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Yeah it does poop out a lot of smoke and oil. From the amount I cleaned off today I was thinking that it might be rich, but I never thought the low end would make that much difference.

I'll mess with the HS a bit more tomorrow. I was hoping to peak around 9700 or so with that 14x7, but it may not happen.

What about the "pinch" method for setting the LS needle? Pinch the fuel line, if it revs up a bit, it's too rich, and do this until it doesn't change the revs. That's what I've read to do anyway.


ORIGINAL: rlmcnii

RVM,

WR did not mention this, but if you have not adjusted your LS needle at all and it is still at its new setting, it is time to start adjusting! You will probably be able to lean it out quite a bit. Your fuel-burn rate will decrease drastically. Saitos run very well with the LS set way too rich...they just make a lot os smoke and burn a lot of fuel doing so.

Lean it until the engine won't transition, or won't transition smoothly from idle. When you get it lean enough to make it hesitate coming out of idle, enrich about 1/8 of a turn and try again. Get it just rich enough to transition and no more.

N.B. Adjust the LS needle ONLY after the HS has been set. It sounds as if you have the HS set pretty well.

Enjoy your .91.
Old 07-30-2006, 12:17 AM
  #3975  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

JPal:

I was in process of making a reply to your stack question when Bliss made his post, I decided more wasn’t needed at the time so I dropped it.

RVM:

Your engine will continue to make a big mess until you lean the LS, as rlmcnii implied. Once it’s leaned out it will still make a mess, just not as much. Unless you use a stack and an air filter.

Maybe BLW will post his experience – he became a believer.

Bill.

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