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Old 10-18-2019, 04:47 AM
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Default Saito fA50 new Boca Bearings Rough

An interesting thing happened with Crunchy's FA50. I installed new Boca bearings and they felt rough at tdc with every rotation, notchy even. Removed the bearings and checked them for smoothness on a glass table top and they felt fine. Checked the case for debris or any anomaly that may have caused distortion of the outer bearing race, nothing that I could see. Reinstalled the bearings and the results were the same, rough.

Called Boca and spoke to Mike their engineer, described my installation technique, he approved and new bearings are on the way.

The only thing that seemed a little strange during bearing installation was the pressure required to install the rear bearing with the case heated to 350įf, it was definitely somewhat tighter than normal. I'm used to having the bearings slide into heated cases quite easily. Boca's engineer stated that the bore for the bearing may be undersized causing the outer bearing race to deform. We'll see when the new bearings arrive.
Old 10-18-2019, 01:44 PM
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Default FA45 to FA45s conversion.

As I mentioned in an earlier post my FA45 must be an earlier MKII because swapping out the cam with an FA50 cam is not as easy as described by posters on some other threads. As can be seen in the photos there are a few snags.

The 50 uses taller tappets and therefore has taller tappet tubes and as a result uses shorter push rods and pushrod covers. The 50 cam has a wider gear and therefore a wider opening in the cam box. The 50's cam lobes are taller so saito elected to insert the tappet tubes flush with the roof of the cam box whereas the tappet tubes on the 45 protrude inside the cambox and interfere with the 50 cam.

If this had been a later FA45 MKII the conversion to an FA45S would have consisted of nothing more than a cam swap.

Below, FA45 on left, Crunchy's FA50 on right



Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-18-2019 at 02:23 PM.
Old 10-18-2019, 01:55 PM
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Very similar situation exists with the non-mushroom fathead 120 tappet and the later big block. The cam house on the later big block have an internal counterbore in the roof to clear the tappet mushroom head. They also have the tall tappet guides. The cam profiles are different as well.
Old 10-18-2019, 02:15 PM
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Good info Gary.

As I have no capable machines or inclination to widen the cam slot in the FA45 cam box or fabricate and install longer tappet tubes I guess I'll have to find an fa45S or 50 cam box and pushrods. The Pushrod covers can be shortened easily and the lower seals can be made from heatshrink tubing right quick so no problem there.

I have not been able to find the compression ratios for either the 45S or the 50. The C/R for the 45 MKII is 7.2:1 .I want to say that Saito probably did not increase the C/R when upgrading the 45 to the 45S but you never know, they may have. I'll CC Crunchy's 50 when I get it together and see where it's at for C/R seeing as it has a similar displacement, similar combustion chamber and uses the same cam as a 45S.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-18-2019 at 03:22 PM.
Old 10-18-2019, 03:32 PM
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You want to talk about making a mistake
i put a old 45 cam in a 56. The darn thing ran like it was a half throttle. Took me two summerís of dinking around for the light bulb to come on that was overhauling 845 and my 56 at the same time. So somewhere I have 45 that runs really good. And I put the proper cam back in the 56.
Old 10-18-2019, 04:03 PM
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I measured the gear width on a Saito 80 and an original 45 Mk 2 @ 3.0mm nominal. The cam axle centerline on the 45 is 4.25mm from the bottom face of the housing. The centerline on the 80 is only 3.05mm.

The interference between cam lobe and lifter bushing was present on one housing and should be easily remedied by relieving the lifter bush that extended slightly into the cam housing.I was able to put the Saito 80 cam into the relieved housing and it spins freely. The 45 lifter is 10mm oal and the 80 is 14mm.

With a little digging, I was able to come up with a newin package Saito 45-50 carb body assembly. No barrel but that should be the same as a 50-56-62 barrel.
Old 10-18-2019, 04:09 PM
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BTW

The push rod tips are removable if you are careful. You may then trim the end to the needed length and re-fit the tip. I like to use a bit of red Loctite and heat to about 200f . With the close fit it holds like silver solder. (Almost)

Sorry, this pertains to my comments earlier about the Saito 120 and other big blocks.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 10-19-2019 at 05:24 AM.
Old 10-18-2019, 04:19 PM
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The pushrods are hollow with tips inserted at both ends? How would I go about removing one end to trim the pushrod?

Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-18-2019 at 04:27 PM.
Old 10-18-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jesse Open
BTW

The push rod tips are removable if you are careful. You may then trim the end to the needed length and re-fit the tip. I like to use a bit of red Loctite and heat to about 200f . With the close fit it holds like silver solder. (Almost)

Lonnie ,
Saw you comment.

I am not an engine collector in the least. They come to me broken, I fix them and they move on to new homes sooner or later or get moved in and out of planes. I have my original open rocker 30 from 1979 and a couple other "keepers" Aside from the 30 I have ten Saito engines presently in planes that see regular use. One YS 120 in a Chipmunk.

I do likewise with ham radio gear, motorcycles, guitars and amplifiers, hi-fi gear.

Here is the part very few can grasp; I don't do this to make money. Perhaps you haven't noticed?
I rarely break even, more often trading for another needy engine. This is a part of the hobby, perhaps one that gets little appreciation.

Most of the "unhappy" engines sitting in those boxes were in very bad shape or in various states of disrepair when they arrived. They are now ready to take once again to tha air and bring satisfaction for years to come.
I will send your stuff out tomorrow, have fun.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 10-18-2019 at 05:57 PM.
Old 10-18-2019, 11:28 PM
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Dave i checked a website in the eastern states and an fa100 engine lists at 432.00 but out of stock. Don't know why so cheap now, i have three fa82's the last of which i bought at the local lhs six years ago and cost me 485.00. Our dollar is weak against yours now compared to back then so it's anybodies guess. The fa182 and fa200r3 are still listed at the same price i bought them at way back then.

Lonnie can you post a pic of those boca bearings, are they ceramic?

Gary many thanks for passing on repaired parts to other people, it's a great spirit to have and i hope it gives you a lot of joy
ps are the pushrod tubes threaded all the way through or just at the tips?
Old 10-18-2019, 11:34 PM
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Wishing all you saito nuts a chilled out weekend
Old 10-19-2019, 02:20 AM
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Gary, I think we all here agree that what you're doing for the hobby is very much appreciated. Like you I enjoy reviving lonely engines of all types and putting them back to their intended use. Nothing wrong with being a collector either. We all enjoy some aspects of our hobbies more than others. My attraction to RC modeling is hands down watching an old dolled up revived engine fly by screaming for joy, so much so that I often refer to my planes as "The silver one with the Saito 62", or "The orange one with the Saito 82". Club members often critique my airframes pointing out wrinkled covering, scratched canopies, chipped paint, fuel residue in the hinge lines and the like. I usually respond with something like, "Yeah, but it purrs like a kitten and runs like a scalded dog" which is many times followed by thier silence..............perfect. Then I mumble "Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time"

Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-19-2019 at 02:38 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 02:24 AM
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Pete, the bearings are Boca # ENK-075 economy bearings for an fa50, nothing fancy.
Old 10-19-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Glowgeek
Pete, the bearings are Boca # ENK-075 economy bearings for an fa50, nothing fancy.

Those are the bearings I use exclusively, I am sure that bearing would have been fine after reaching operating temperature for a minute or two. I think the bearings settle in during the first warm up. Yesterday I discovered that I have been making a mistake. When I first installed one of those ENK-75's, in a 50, it was perfectly smooth, then I sprayed Lithium grease into it, then it was gritty feeling, I sprayed the Lithium grease out of it with NAPA Brakleen, re-lubed with Corrosion X and it's perfectly smooth again. Me wonders what's up with that. I thought the Lithium would be a good thing for the first minutes, maybe not.

PS, the 82 crank is still not here, it's the 9th day after it shipped. Everything else from Macgregor come on the 4th day.
Old 10-19-2019, 03:45 AM
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If the bearings had exhibited a tiny bit of resistance at some point during crank rotation I may have run it but it (front or rear, not sure which) had 3 distinct notches near tdc. Too risky, especially with someone elses engine.


Have you gone back to the Hobbyplastics site to see if the 82 crank is on backorder? That happened to me once at Horizon; someone bought the last pair of tappets right before my order processed through.

PS, the tips of the straws on spray lube cans are notorious for picking up all forms of dust and debris.

Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-19-2019 at 04:27 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 03:58 AM
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Gary, Pete and I would like to know more about how to remove the pushrod tips. Are they press fit or threaded?

Also, how would I dress up the bottom of a tappet? On a lathe? , which begs the question, how to chuck it up perfectly straight. Maybe drill a light press fit hole in some aluminum round stock, heat it and insert the tappet for machining? Or maybe drill a slip fit hole in steel round stock and use a grub screw to secure the tappet?

Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-19-2019 at 04:01 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 04:26 AM
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I donít me to step on toes but i think he might have been referring to the 120-180. Push rods. They use a holo tube with a hardened tip insert. The small rods are solid. I believe one of us cut one. To see if they could make one.
Old 10-19-2019, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Captcrunch44
I donít me to step on toes but i think he might have been referring to the 120-180. Push rods. They use a holo tube with a hardened tip insert. The small rods are solid. I believe one of us cut one. To see if they could make one.
Aah Ok, thanks.
Old 10-19-2019, 05:36 AM
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Saito 120 Fathead. Repaired exhaust port, replaced valve guides. Late style cam and new lifters. Fresh bearings and rings. Somebody got a good deal for $70
Originally Posted by Captcrunch44
I donít me to step on toes but i think he might have been referring to the 120-180. Push rods. They use a holo tube with a hardened tip insert. The small rods are solid. I believe one of us cut one. To see if they could make one.

Thank you Captain , That is correct. I mis-spoke earlier. The big block are tubular, the little ones are solid. I had mentioned the fathead 120 earlier. I had shortened the pushrods on a fathead to fit later style lifters.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 10-19-2019 at 05:46 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 05:45 AM
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Could I interest anyone in a trade of these two mufflers, a 50/56 original and a 120/180 muffler with their pipes, for a pair of 82 sized rocker covers. Thanks

The big one has a visible pliers mark on each end, not real deep.
Old 10-19-2019, 07:18 AM
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These are interesting


http://www.espritmodel.com/saito-roc...sai150s49.aspx.


Last edited by Glowgeek; 10-19-2019 at 07:32 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 08:13 AM
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I have a pair here. I can take them out of the factory plastic bag and wrap them in a towel before mailing them
Don't really need the mufflers, already have more mufflers than Planes to fly them on! Or boxes to put them in The valve covers are yours . Just need your address again.
Old 10-19-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Could I interest anyone in a trade of these two mufflers, a 50/56 original and a 120/180 muffler with their pipes, for a pair of 82 sized rocker covers. Thanks

The big one has a visible pliers mark on each end, not real deep.
sure I will take them do you want the valve coverís with or without the engine

Last edited by Captcrunch44; 10-19-2019 at 08:21 AM.
Old 10-19-2019, 08:29 AM
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Gary is sending me the rocker covers on the house, so you get the mufflers on the house. How's that for everybody paying it forward. I'll see if I still have your address.
Old 10-19-2019, 08:34 AM
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As long as everyone is happy.
I sure am😁

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