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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 10-15-2006, 07:41 AM
  #4876  
Hobbsy
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Being that I'm a retardo, er retired, my time is not as valuable as his, he is a very busy man from what I understand with article deadlines, many engines to reair etc. He has a standard amount of minutes he mentions sometimes but I forget what it is. I don't heat cycle steel cylinder engines like Fox for example, I give them a rich 30 minutes and let the flying do the heat cycling as Mr. Lee does. I suspect many a Saito has been taken out of the box, mounted on a plane and flown with no break in at all.
Old 10-15-2006, 10:08 AM
  #4877  
proptop
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

One more good thing about running a tank or two thru a Saito on the test stand...

You don't have to wipe all that assembly lube residue off your plane...

Have any of you guys noticed this?
Whatever grease or assy. lube they use when putting the engines together...a lot of it comes flying out the exh. and breather nipple during the first minutes of operation.
Old 10-15-2006, 10:22 AM
  #4878  
JettPilot
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

my time is not as valuable as his, he is a very busy man from what I understand with article deadlines, many engines to reair etc.
Who has article deadlines ??? Who does this person write for ?

JettPilot

PS Sorry Artisan, did not know you were joking... Mostly this thread had gone to page two and I needed badly to revive it. I am afraid that this thread will go into obscurity without William Robinson here to keep it alive [sm=sad_smile.gif]

JettPilot
Old 10-15-2006, 01:30 PM
  #4879  
ericrcpilot
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I just wanted to say that I am a proud owner of yet another Saito. This time it is the 220GK!

This thing is great. I can't get over how big it is. I started the break-in on my test stand, and I will finish it when I get it mounted on the plane. I am glad I did the first tank on the test stand because of the vibrations while running this first tank at a very rich setting. It smoothed out greatly on the third tank when I leaned it out a little. What is the approximate HS needle setting people are getting when broken in?
Old 10-15-2006, 01:32 PM
  #4880  
Hobbsy
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Quote from N1EDM

Hobbsy,

To add my $.02 to what you are saying, I remember reading one of Clarence Lee's "Engine Clinic" columns in RCM once.

Exercise a little logic there Jett.
Old 10-15-2006, 02:09 PM
  #4881  
WMB
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Another Saito 45 report:
It now has about a 1/2 gallon through it. Put on an APC 12x5, 9200 rpm ready to fly. Has more speed and thrust than the APC 12x4 on the 4*. Idle has really smoothed out recently. I quit messing with fuel and went with Magnum YS/DZ 20/20. I can see more Saito's in my future.
MikeB
Old 10-15-2006, 03:50 PM
  #4882  
William Robison
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Guess I need to make my presence known. I’m still here and watching.

The last few posts have been mostly on break in, whether on the bench or the plane. My preference is initial running on the bench even though I didn’t say so, with the final running in on the plane. A couple reasons, the adjustments are usually easier on the bench, and the initial running has a lot of vibration that can shorten the airframe life.

Also, I just don’t get any enjoyment from bench running an engine. Once it’s running well it’s time to fly.

My favorite routine is take off, for high power setting, then the down wind leg for mid power and cooling, then to idle on final and landing. While still rolling power up again and repeat. Fly the tank out, refuel and recheck adjustments, do it all again. When the adjustments no longer need adjustment you’re finished.

If you have a stand to run the engine on, fine. If all you have is the plane, fine. Personal preference.

I’m working on a “Catch-up,” going back to Crankpin’s post on page 184. Patience, please.

Bill.
Old 10-15-2006, 04:29 PM
  #4883  
JPal101
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AMEN
Old 10-15-2006, 06:45 PM
  #4884  
RVM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

You've got a lot of reading to do!

ORIGINAL: William Robison

Guess I need to make my presence known. I’m still here and watching.

The last few posts have been mostly on break in, whether on the bench or the plane. My preference is initial running on the bench even though I didn’t say so, with the final running in on the plane. A couple reasons, the adjustments are usually easier on the bench, and the initial running has a lot of vibration that can shorten the airframe life.

Also, I just don’t get any enjoyment from bench running an engine. Once it’s running well it’s time to fly.

My favorite routine is take off, for high power setting, then the down wind leg for mid power and cooling, then to idle on final and landing. While still rolling power up again and repeat. Fly the tank out, refuel and recheck adjustments, do it all again. When the adjustments no longer need adjustment you’re finished.

If you have a stand to run the engine on, fine. If all you have is the plane, fine. Personal preference.

I’m working on a “Catch-up,” going back to Crankpin’s post on page 184. Patience, please.

Bill.
Old 10-15-2006, 08:06 PM
  #4885  
William Robison
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Robert:

A fair bit of reading, but the wtiting will take a lot longer.

Bill.
Old 10-15-2006, 10:02 PM
  #4886  
blw
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

This thread will do just fine without any more 'reviving'.....
Old 10-16-2006, 08:51 AM
  #4887  
dougwill
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Can anyone direct to the post that has step by step directions on how to change bearings? What needs to be removed before warming in over (temp)? Carb, pushrod tubes, front hub?


Thanks Bill and everyone else that makes this one of the best forums.

Doug
Old 10-16-2006, 09:30 AM
  #4888  
NM2K
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ORIGINAL: proptop

I think Artisan was saying the same thing as I'm gonna try to...

If the engine gives you good signals while doing a test run on the stand, then it should be reliable enough to put on the plane without extended test stand running...(something like that, Ed?)

Most engines, I will run maybe 1, or 2 at most, tanks through just to get a general idea of where the carb is set, and to see if there are any obvious problems with it.
I will set the needles close to where I feel they need to be...a "baseline" setting...and, sometimes I just want to hear what it's gonna sound like![8D]

A time or two, I have gone thru the trouble of installing a new, un-tested engine on an airplane, and then having difficulties with it out at the field, and had to take it back off the airplane, etc. etc...pain in the neck...
(one was a front bearing that was pissing fuel out so badly, I had to send the engine back...actually, it was a defect in the case, but I digress )

I don't believe in extended test stand running either...
IMO it's a boring, obnoxious (the noise ) waste of fuel...and it gets the neighbors p.o.'d at ya too...

---------------


You are absolutely correct, PropTop. While it may sound like I believe in running every engine for ages on the test stand, that isn't true. Thanks for giving me a chance to explain myself a bit better.

There are some engines that I have that I haven't bothered to run them on a test stand, because I am so familiar with how they run and I know that they really don't need any bench time at all. At least not so far (Enya .40CX & .45CX). I have even been known to avoid engines once I have learned about a really extensive break-in requirement.

I was trying to kid you and others JettPilot, not insult you. My apology.

I've never once seen bench running harm an engine. If I have any doubt about the engine, or am not familiar with it, I'll at least put a tank or two through the engine on the bench just to loosen it up a bit and to get the settings close.

I have seen folks encounter problems with mounting up a brand new engine, firing it up and then frying - er- flying it in a model. Does it happen a lot? No. But it does happen upon occasion.

Sometimes, when I'm in the mood, I'll select an engine from my collection, mount it up and run it, just for kicks. To me, engines are a separate hobby from flying. As is building.
Old 10-16-2006, 10:30 AM
  #4889  
RVM
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I'm one of those who enjoys running an engine on a bench. I put 48oz. of fuel through my Saito .91 before I mounted it. That's probably a bit overkill, but I enjoyed doing so and I was able to really get to know the engine (it was my first 4-stroke) while making sure I didn't damage it. Also, I tuned it so the vibration wasn't so bad. This is especially important, in my opinion, on planes with really light airframes (Funtanas, Fliton Extras/Edges etc.) where vibration tends to cause serious problems.
Old 10-16-2006, 10:38 AM
  #4890  
proptop
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I didn't feel insulted in any way, shape or form Ed...no need to apologise (thanks anyway though )

We aparently do things very much alike...

Engines like a TT .46 Pro, or the O.S.'s and a few others are so familiar, that they don't even need a tank run thru 'em on a stand...just bolt 'em on the plane and go from there.


I have a Fitzpatrick .61 that an old friend gave me (great to have friends like that, huh?!) that had a busted off needle valve.
I repaired it with help from W8YE and Hobbsy, and will be test running it soon...gonna be fun
Old 10-16-2006, 10:40 AM
  #4891  
Kmot
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Hell, I run engines on the bench just to hear them run!
Old 10-16-2006, 11:36 AM
  #4892  
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I am amazed at how well these engines run for the most part no matter how they are broken in. I have seen some severly abused yet when finally properly adjusted run well. Several of our guys are known as "too rich". After every flight they lean the engine some more. The engine complains, is adjusted and flys again. Amazing

slopoke
Old 10-17-2006, 12:06 PM
  #4893  
Gregg Uhlendorf
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I have a well broken in FA-72 that usually runs great. Recently, it began to idle very inconsistently at times with symptoms of a very rich mixture. Inspection revealed the idle stop screw had backed out, allowing the carb barrel more in/out play than usual. I reset and locktited the stop screw to allow the barrel to go just a hair past fully closed: problem solved.

Immediately after reseting the idle stop screw, the engine began to exhibit another problem. When coming down to idle the RPMs stay high (~4000 RPM) for way longer than normal, then gradually slow to the idle RPM (~2000 RPM). This will happen even with a slight blip of throttle which makes taxiing and landing a bit more challenging. Any idea what could be causing this?
Otherwise the engine runs and transitions well. The HS needle is set at 500 RPM rich of peak (10000 RPM). The LS needle is set by leaning till engine quits on transition then just rich enough for good transition.

Gregg
Old 10-17-2006, 12:23 PM
  #4894  
w8ye
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When the idle starts fast and then slows down I always thought was caused by a rich idle setting?
Old 10-17-2006, 01:28 PM
  #4895  
scratchonly
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Are you sure the barrel slot screw is not catching on the slot? This may just happen when the engine is hot I have found you can't remove all of the slop (play) without causing problems. When I have problems I always go back to my previous move.
Old 10-17-2006, 01:36 PM
  #4896  
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Bill: I passed on that 1.00 I asked you about. I think it too had a bent crank. hah!

Are the ceramics going into my .91 lighter than the stock stainless steel? Just wondering if there are any other benefits besides longevity. I did a search on the forums and found some who claim lots of benefits and some who claim none whatsoever.

I have a friend whose 1.00 won't transition well no matter what. The high speed is about 250-300 rpm rich, and the lowspeed is either too rich, or too lean. On transition it either gurgles or quits. It has a couple of gallons of 15% through it, and was broken in correctly. Other than this is runs really well, with a good idle at about 2100 with a 15x6 APC. It has a new OS-F plug. Also, it won't hold a steady RPM at full throttle, making it difficult to set the highspeed needle. Any inputs?
Old 10-17-2006, 04:32 PM
  #4897  
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ORIGINAL: RVM

Bill: I passed on that 1.00 I asked you about. I think it too had a bent crank. hah!

Are the ceramics going into my .91 lighter than the stock stainless steel? Just wondering if there are any other benefits besides longevity. I did a search on the forums and found some who claim lots of benefits and some who claim none whatsoever.

I have a friend whose 1.00 won't transition well no matter what. The high speed is about 250-300 rpm rich, and the lowspeed is either too rich, or too lean. On transition it either gurgles or quits. It has a couple of gallons of 15% through it, and was broken in correctly. Other than this is runs really well, with a good idle at about 2100 with a 15x6 APC. It has a new OS-F plug. Also, it won't hold a steady RPM at full throttle, making it difficult to set the highspeed needle. Any inputs?

-----------


No glow engine holds an absolutely steady rpm at high throttle. How much variation is acceptable? That is another matter.

See if your friend can borrow another friend's carb for the Saito 1.00, just for test purposes. That might tell you something.

The type of fuel can make a difference too. Don't rely upon just one sample of any glow plug for making judgements of engine performance. They can vary quite a bit, especially if they have been in operation before. Good luck to you and your friend.
Old 10-17-2006, 09:47 PM
  #4898  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Jim, when my .72 started having backplate problems it sometimes held RPMs too long as one of the first symptoms. Maybe Gregg's engine is starting to run too lean and just hasn't really shown it too much yet. I don't know why mine would do like Gregg's, but my guess is that I was unwittingly chasing the needle settings as the engine started to run leaner and leaner with the air leak at the manifold. Just a guess. Before I knew about the .72 problem, my engine would do things that made no sense at all. Remember how much it aggravated us?
Old 10-17-2006, 09:50 PM
  #4899  
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I remember we chased the needle settings all over the place until you changed the back plate.
Old 10-17-2006, 11:03 PM
  #4900  
Gregg Uhlendorf
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I have the new improved backplate on the 72. After some dead sticks and chasing the tuning all over the place, I noticed a chunk of o-ring hanging out of the joint at the head. The replacement did not last long; and I read about the backplate in this thread (Thanks to all). That seems to have eliminated the o-ring eatiing issue. Having been bitten before, the manifold seal was the first thing I checked when things started acting up again.

I just checked the throttle and linkage for smooth operation. It's good when cold. I'll try Scratchonly's advice and repeat that check while hot. If that checks out, I'll see if I can lean out the low mixture some. The servo is solid at the idle position too.

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