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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 12-04-2005, 01:42 AM
  #976  
Kmot
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ORIGINAL: William Robison

Tom:

Using a flat jeweler’s file clean the top end of your valve stems, you’ll find they slide right in with no resistance afterward. You DO have the ridges, else they would already slide all the way freely.

Metric “C” clips? Well, the clips in the Saito aren’t really C clips, that’s just a convenient name to use. I don’t think a real C clip would work. If it fits the groove it will be too small on its OD, and probably too thin anyway.

Glad you found the air bleed post.
---------------------
Bill.
Thanks Bill.

Believe it or not, the old open rocker 40 had c-clips. When I disassembled it (remember, I am original owner and it was factory original) one of the clips shot off into outer space (which is, as you know, typical...) and the other one I held onto for dear life! Well, it was a c-clip. Yes, a regular good old fashined c-clip. Well maybe not good ol' because it is after all metric........ Anyway, it uses 2.5mm c-clips. I just happened to have a rack of HPI car c-clips in 2.5mm so when I reassembled the engine I was good to go. They fit exactly, and fill the valve spring cap perfectly. And they did not pop off when running it on the test stand.

This is not to say, however, that the old 120 I have will be the same and use a standard metric c-clip. But the point is moot, as I took your advice and ordered the new valve springs, keepers, and valves. I will however, dress the stock valve stems to verify if I had the mushroomed ends as you described.

BTW, do you happen to have an exploded diagram of the air bleed carburettor?

-Tom
Old 12-04-2005, 01:50 AM
  #977  
Ernie Misner
 
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>>> I just received my 2ed saito. FA-45. What size of prop to start with? >>>

Are the 45's older engines? In recent years, I am familiar with the 30 and then the 40.

Ernie
Old 12-04-2005, 01:52 AM
  #978  
William Robison
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Tom:

Sorry, not even a parts listing for the AB carb, much less an exploded parts view. I do have one on an engine not in service, so I suppose if you ask nicely I could take some pictures and make a composite view. But you'll have to give me a couple days - still have some customer work holding for day time occupation.

Bill.
Old 12-04-2005, 02:26 AM
  #979  
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Bill, Thank you very much for the info on the cams, Very informative, but am I reading you right, that one can set the old cams(with the straight mufflers) at a half a thousand ??????-- .0005........and how can one check to see where the cam change started ?....thanks again.........John
Old 12-04-2005, 03:07 AM
  #980  
iflynething
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Bill,

I don't want to drag on the oil thing, but how much faster will running 100% synthetic as opposes to castor or a castor/synthetic mix ruin the cams?

You really seem to know your Saitos Mr. Robinson. How did you get this much knowledge about these engines.....You are a wealth of knowledge.

~Michael~
Old 12-04-2005, 03:35 AM
  #981  
William Robison
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John:

There's no correlation between the mufflers and the cams. If the engine was delivered with a cast muffler it most likely has the ramped cam, but some that had the straight muffler had the ramped cams also. What's worse, the early "High" cam engines didn't have the quieting ramps while the later ones do. Using a dial gauge and a degree wheel you can check it.

Attachment is a picture of one quieting ramp. Vertical is lift in inches, horizontal is crank degrees of rotation.

If in doubt it's safest just to stay with the 0.002" setting.

Bill.
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Old 12-04-2005, 03:57 AM
  #982  
William Robison
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Michael:

I have a couple of very high time FA-120 engines, I've lost track of how many sets of main bearings they've had. I don't expect to be doing much bearing changing now that I've switched to ceramics, but their cams have nice polished tracks where the tappets run. They have never run with all synthetic oil.

At the same time I've pulled some down just two years old with 0.010" and more worn off the peaks of the cam lobes. Right. Run from new on all synthetic.

Castor oil has "Extreme pressure" qualities that synthetic doesn't have, this makes it a better lubricant on rubbing surfaces, and when the clearance is too wide it resists having the tappet break the oil film better than the synthetic.

I've attached a picture of the worst Saito cam I've seen. It has both electrolytic/acid damage, and damage from hammering (the bathtub shaped pit) with loose valve adjustment. Castor oil can not prevent damage from hammering, but it will slow it somewhat. The etching is largely prevented by using castor oil.

So how did I learn the engines? I've been playing with Saitos for quite a few years, and as I said in my first post in this thread I've probably taken more of them apart than a sane human would ever dream of owning. Haw.

Bill.

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Old 12-04-2005, 04:55 AM
  #983  
iflynething
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ORIGINAL: William Robison

Michael:

I have a couple of very high time FA-120 engines, I've lost track of how many sets of main bearings they've had. I don't expect to be doing much bearing changing now that I've switched to ceramics, but their cams have nice polished tracks where the tappets run. They have never run with all synthetic oil.

At the same time I've pulled some down just two years old with 0.010" and more worn off the peaks of the cam lobes. Right. Run from new on all synthetic.

Castor oil has "Extreme pressure" qualities that synthetic doesn't have, this makes it a better lubricant on rubbing surfaces, and when the clearance is too wide it resists having the tappet break the oil film better than the synthetic.

I've attached a picture of the worst Saito cam I've seen. It has both electrolytic/acid damage, and damage from hammering (the bathtub shaped pit) with loose valve adjustment. Castor oil can not prevent damage from hammering, but it will slow it somewhat. The etching is largely prevented by using castor oil.

So how did I learn the engines? I've been playing with Saitos for quite a few years, and as I said in my first post in this thread I've probably taken more of them apart than a sane human would ever dream of owning. Haw.

Bill.


Alright, well thanks for the information. Sorry I mispelled your name, supposed to be Mr. Robison. Sorry bout that.

Anyways, wow 0.010". That's a huge gap, I mean for an engine that's usually running a 0.002 gap.

Should I switch back to castor (back to the brand of Bryon?).What about ceramic bearings. I have thought about this for a while, and would like to put them in all my engines.

Obviously the main advantage is wear, any other advantages.

Again, thanks for the information, I really appreciate that.


~Michael~
Old 12-04-2005, 12:30 PM
  #984  
William Robison
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Michael:

I am not a fan of Byron fuels, they mix by weight rather than volume so their percentages aren't the same as percentages in other brands. I stay with Morgan fuels, the "Omega" 15% nitro is my fuel of choice.

Don't run 100% castor, three to four percent of the total fuel volume is enough, keep at least 18% of the total as oil, 20% is better.

You can run higher nitro content if you wish, I don't think the added power and fuel consumption are worth the added cost, but that's up to you. Some are running 30% and are as happy as they can be. Your choice.

I'm now getting all my bearings from http://www.rc-bearings.com/ also known as RC-BEARINGS. Paul is good people, he sells ceramic sets at the price Boca charges for stainless. If you just want cheap Paul also sells OEM bearings at prices that will meet your local bearing supply house.

Bill.
Old 12-04-2005, 12:37 PM
  #985  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I can second Bill's recommendation of Paul.
I am rebuilding some 2 strokes that have sat around for the 20 years I was out of the hobby.
Bill put me on to Paul and I have bought 3 sets of front and rear bearings from him for an old Kraft .61 and a couple out of production O.S. engines.
He's a great guy to deal with!
JLK
Old 12-04-2005, 12:50 PM
  #986  
johnS555
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Bill One last thing to clear my mind up, if I check with a dial indicator and know the cam does not have a ramp, is it safe to set the rockers at .0005 ......Thank you very much, and I will get out of your hair...... John
Old 12-04-2005, 01:51 PM
  #987  
iflynething
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ORIGINAL: William Robison

Michael:

I am not a fan of Byron fuels, they mix by weight rather than volume so their percentages aren't the same as percentages in other brands. I stay with Morgan fuels, the "Omega" 15% nitro is my fuel of choice.

Don't run 100% castor, three to four percent of the total fuel volume is enough, keep at least 18% of the total as oil, 20% is better.

You can run higher nitro content if you wish, I don't think the added power and fuel consumption are worth the added cost, but that's up to you. Some are running 30% and are as happy as they can be. Your choice.

I'm now getting all my bearings from http://www.rc-bearings.com/ also known as RC-BEARINGS. Paul is good people, he sells ceramic sets at the price Boca charges for stainless. If you just want cheap Paul also sells OEM bearings at prices that will meet your local bearing supply house.

Bill.
WOW, thank you for your help. Very great prices from Paul on his site. I checked that out.

Do ceramics run any better, i.e. smoother, or anything. I personally have had no experience with them, and haven't really got that much information so, I don't know.

As for fuel, my next gallon, I will run some Omega 15% fuel and see how that runs. Really the only reason I switched to 100% synthetic was because castor is a too big of a mess on my helicoper. It gets everywhere, all over, especially on the skis and boom.

I will definately go back for a while and see how I like everything.

Thank you for your help, Mr. Robison!

~Michael~
Old 12-04-2005, 02:39 PM
  #988  
William Robison
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JohnS:

If you examined the chart I posted, you'll see the ramp is flat only for 3 degrees, and that's crank angle, just 1.5 degrees on the cam. Without using a degree wheel with the dial gauge it's almost impossible to see.

Try th 1/2 thousandth clearance. If you get a performance increase stay with it. No gain, it's pretty quick to go back to 0.002" lash.
------------------------
Michael:

New precision steel bearings and new ceramics are equally smooth. After ten hours the steel bearings are starting to get loose, after 30 hours the steel bearings are due for replacement. The ceramics, after 30 hours, still feel like new.

OK everybody, OK! I know the steel bearings will often run 100 hours, 'specially if you get them with the polycarbonate retainers. But to get that life you have to run the engine dry every time, use after run oil religiously, and castor oil is needed in the fuel.

Finally, if you drive your helicopter like any sane and rational rotor head, the oil only gets on the skid. If you jerk it about doing fancy maneuvers and (heaven forbid) inverted flight with a fling-wing, the oil will indeed be everywhere. It's you fault though, not the oil's. Haw.

Bill.
Old 12-04-2005, 07:08 PM
  #989  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


ORIGINAL: William Robison

Tom:

Sorry, not even a parts listing for the AB carb, much less an exploded parts view. I do have one on an engine not in service, so I suppose if you ask nicely I could take some pictures and make a composite view.

Bill.
Umm, how about like this: Pretty please, with whip cream and a cherry on top?

Or, Gee whiz Mr. Robison, it sure would be swell if you could do that for me!

Or, If you were a girl, I'd give you a big hug for doing that!

lol...
Old 12-04-2005, 07:38 PM
  #990  
iflynething
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ORIGINAL: William Robison

JohnS:

If you examined the chart I posted, you'll see the ramp is flat only for 3 degrees, and that's crank angle, just 1.5 degrees on the cam. Without using a degree wheel with the dial gauge it's almost impossible to see.

Try th 1/2 thousandth clearance. If you get a performance increase stay with it. No gain, it's pretty quick to go back to 0.002" lash.
------------------------
Michael:

New precision steel bearings and new ceramics are equally smooth. After ten hours the steel bearings are starting to get loose, after 30 hours the steel bearings are due for replacement. The ceramics, after 30 hours, still feel like new.

OK everybody, OK! I know the steel bearings will often run 100 hours, 'specially if you get them with the polycarbonate retainers. But to get that life you have to run the engine dry every time, use after run oil religiously, and castor oil is needed in the fuel.

Finally, if you drive your helicopter like any sane and rational rotor head, the oil only gets on the skid. If you jerk it about doing fancy maneuvers and (heaven forbid) inverted flight with a fling-wing, the oil will indeed be everywhere. It's you fault though, not the oil's. Haw.

Bill.
Hmm. I fly my helicopter just fine. Mostly the crap just gets on the skids, like you said it should. But, just residue gets on the other places. I didn't mean oil, just a film of the sorts on servos and the frame (if I'm flying without a canopy) and on the boom and everything back there.

Thanks, and I will try Omega next gallon and see what I think

~Michael~
Old 12-04-2005, 08:30 PM
  #991  
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ORIGINAL: William Robison

Tom:

Using a flat jeweler’s file clean the top end of your valve stems, you’ll find they slide right in with no resistance afterward. You DO have the ridges, else they would already slide all the way freely.


Bill.
Yup. Just did that. And you were right of course. They now slide in freely.

Thanks,
-Tom
Old 12-04-2005, 08:42 PM
  #992  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Tom
You may have missed my question.
What is the difference of a FA-45 from a FA-45 mkII

Thanks

Gene
Old 12-04-2005, 09:25 PM
  #993  
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Hi everybody I went to an auction and came home with an extra 300s with a Saito fa 100t mounted on it, every thing was pretty grimy, took a roll of paper towels to clean the airframe. The plane has not had any radio it at any time, so it was new, after I got the saito out and cleaned the out side of it up. I decided to pull the back plate,guess what? The engine has never been ran. So now I am the proud owner of a saito twin, not gonna tell you what I paid for it though.




Bob36
Old 12-05-2005, 01:05 AM
  #994  
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Gene, are you addressing me? If so, I do not know the answer.

My guess would be something like a different cam or carb.

-Tom
Old 12-05-2005, 01:16 AM
  #995  
mtnmnstr
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I'm sorry Tom I got you and Bill mixed up. I'm just sittting here confused. So many kits to build. Work is just taking up too much building time.
Old 12-05-2005, 08:41 AM
  #996  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: bob36

I am the proud owner of a saito twin, not gonna tell you what I paid for it though.

Bob36
Appreciate your not telling Bob... Just make me/us feel worse
Old 12-07-2005, 10:46 PM
  #997  
JAkridge
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Whats the best aftermarket muffler to switch to for a Saito 180 ? And is the flex hose good use ? And do they have a pressure outlet. ?

Thanks for any ideas.
Old 12-08-2005, 11:09 AM
  #998  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

This is one loooong forum. I'm new here and have a couple of Saito 100s, and a 91.
Presently one of the 100s needs bearings, bad! It has excellent compression, but it is hammering.
I have tinkered with engines, but have never changed bearings in a 100. I looked around this forum for some tips, but have decided it may take forever to find what I need, HELP!
Can anyone offer some tips on how to do the job, and advise as to what kind of bearings I should replace with.

Thank You,

otterrc
Old 12-08-2005, 11:18 AM
  #999  
quint-rcu
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Some time back someone gave me the name and address of a fellow who would replace ring and bearings on Saitos. I believe he was in TX or AZ, but can not find the name after Katrina hit us. I want to do this on a .72 and don't want to send it back to Horizon. Anybody know of this fellow?

thanks,
quint
Old 12-08-2005, 11:25 AM
  #1000  
William Robison
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Otter:

The only hard part is pulling the prop drive. With the engine in your hand go to your local auto supply house, they may well have loaner tools, including a puller that will do the job. Just pop it free while you're there.

Back home? Pull the rocker covers, take the rocker pivot pins out along with the rockers and push rods. There will be either plastic or steel thrust washers on the inner side of the rockers. No mistake, the load pushes them to the center. Keep the intake and exhaust parts separate, put them back where they came out.

Pull the carb, intake pipe, and the back plate. Now remove the four screws holding the cylinder. Rock it a little to break it free. Turn the crank toward TDC as you lift the cylinder a little more, when the skirt of the cylinder is above the crank case move it to the rear to disconnect the con rod. Unless there's a problem in the top end do not take the piston out of the cylinder. Note the push rod tubes and their seals will come with the cylinder. Set the assembly aside.

At this point the crank will slide out the rear. But putting it back in and getting the cam in time is a bear, so pull the cam housing before you pop the crank. Try not to damage the gasket, its thickness sets the mesh of the timing gears.

Make sure the new bearings will slide on the crank shaft. If they will not, use some oil and 600 grit paper to polish it until the bearings do slide on. Clean it up, slide the rear bearing on and leave it. If the front bearing has rubber seals, pop either one out. If it has the metal shields, leave them both in.

With nothing left in the case but the bearings, put it in the oven at 250 degrees for 20 minutes or so. Then, protecting your hands, a dowel can be used to push the front bearing out, and a sharp rap on some hard wood will make the rear bearing fall out.

While the case is still hot, slide the crank and rear bearing in, slide the front bearing on, then push the shaft in while pushing the front bearing in at the same time. This uses one to guide the other, you wont get one cocked. Oh yes. The front bearing seal. If you took one out, the open side goes to the case. If you had the metal shields, either way is fine.

Reassemble in reverse order.

Notes on assembly: Cam timing has been covered too many times to repeat it here, search on "Saito" and "Cam" - you'll find several of my posts about it, including how to check timing after assembly. Use a very light smear of RTV on the joint between the cylinder and case, same on the back plate. Don't forget the push rod tubes when you mount the cylinder. Sliding the lower seals about 1/3 of the way up the tube will make it easier to locate them. Looking at the push rods you will see one end is rounded, the other is tapered before the rounded end. The tapered end goes to the top.

With the crank case and installed crank shaft mounted in your test stand, or lightly clamped in a vise, turn the cam to get the timing mark straight down, then use your X-Acto knife with a #11 blade to hold the gear, the blade against the gasket face, and set the assembly into the crank case. Check the timing, if OK continue with the assembly of the engine.

Check the timing? How? Easy. Get your push rods out, remembering to keep the exhaust and intake separate. Now while the engine is still on the stand/in the vise, set the push rods into the tappets. Use your left index finger to push the inlet rod in, and your left middle finger to push the exhaust rod. With your right hand turn the crank in its normal direction of rotation. After about 1/2 turn you will feel your middle finger (exhaust) being pushed up, then as you complete one full turn your middle finger will be going back down and the index finger will be pushed up. The crank should have the crank pin at the top, centered in the opening for the cylinder mounting. Rock the crank, you'll feel your two fingers going up and down one opposite the other - as one rises the other will fall. The center point with both fingers equally displaced should be with the crank pin in its center position. This is exactly the same as observing the valve rocker movement with the engine completely assembled, you're just doing it without having the rockers installed. Sorry, I don't have any pictures of this procedure. If wanted/desired I can shoot some, but I'll have to pull an engine apart to do it.

Bill.

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