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Old 06-08-2012, 10:30 PM
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Guess you didn't replace those o-rings with the high temp (Viton) version then and they worked okay in the head. Might not last as long though? Unexplained dead sticks at idle will be the tip off.

Thanks,

Ernie Misner
Old 06-09-2012, 08:19 AM
  #22177  
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I think that I just forgot about them. You are right about it being best to use Viton.
Old 06-10-2012, 07:26 PM
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i have a saito fg 36, this was originally on my super decathlon, engine did great, plane flew 6 times, on last flight, i put high rates, and it lost control, and i lost the bird.  i then put the fg 36 in a H9 P51 blue nose 60.  today was maiden, once plane was airborne, about 10 feet high, i laid off up elevator, and plane went down.  no damage to engine this time.  plane is toast.

looking for a plane that the fg 36 would be good in.

i have a saito gk 100, on a H9 twist 40.  this combo is great, unlimited vertical, flat spins, rolls for ever .   love that engine and plane.

i have started to work on a GP revolver 70.  and ordered the saito 125 glow engine.

i am looking for ernie for some advice.  with this engine bird combo, do you think ca hinges will work fine if i install them how you described earlier on this thread?
Old 06-11-2012, 01:11 PM
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This is off topic, but to answer orthobirds question here is a post I made a while ago on another forum:

I've used all 3 makes of hinges mentioned here over the years, (CA, Pin and Point) and here's my take.

CA hinges are by far the easiest and least expensive to install, the reason they are so common on ARF's. Unfortunately if not installed correctly, (such as too large a hinge gap and/or, more commonly, too little glue wicked in to do a full bond) then they can work loose.

They also have the problem of fatigue with repeated flexing. Yes, they can fail over time, especially if flown in cold weather

Your typical pin hinges are still my favourite. I normally go a bit overboard with both number and size since this not only makes for a good rotation axis, it stiffens up the control surface and transmits your control input better. On the larger hinges I throw away their cotter pins and fab my own pins from piano wire. Very easy to do.

The Robart hinges can also be a good option, with drilling a hole sometimes easier than a good slit for the previous two options. I found on surfaces with hard edges you also have to profile the hole for the center of the hinge as that is a square outline. What I find is the Robarts best feature is the ability to more easily offset the hinge axis to change where the pivot point occurs. The simple system has the hinge line directly between the two. If you offset it either way you change the geometry and how the surface moves. Hard to explain, but you can accomplish the same type of thing with the entire surface that you would get with a counterbalance ahead of the control surface, (the part of the elevator or rudder that is ahead of the hinge line, normally on the outer or upper portion of the surface). You can also make simulated Fowler Flaps by offsetting the hinge point below the centerline of the flap and wing. When deflected the surface travels aft and down.

With all of the above the key is to ensure all the hinges are in an absolutely straight line. Even with the CA hinges you can have problems when the surface is deflected if they are not and binding and surface flexing, the deflection of the stab or control surface if moved one way or the other, can occur. Not only will it require more energy to flex, it can eventually lead to hinge or flight surface failure over time.

The other key to a pin hinge is to properly glue only where its needed. With CA hinges this is simple as the hinge is fully seated before application and there really is no "Hinge Axis". You can use thin CA if there is a relatively tight fit to the slot and perhaps medium if not, (if too large then a CA hinge is not the best option). You need to flex the hinge while the glue is drying to help set the flexible hinge area. If you wait till the glue is fully set then it can create too much stress when first flexing and start micro cracks in the plastic that will lead to failure.

I normally take the effort on the larger hinges to individually grease the pin and pin receptacles before bonding them in to ensure no glue intrudes or bonds the area that needs to move. It is time consuming and dreary, (some may say ) but it is the only way I know to do it right.

In the past I have used epoxy, then mixing in FLOX to add structural strength and body to the epoxy, (to prevent too much flow until set), but in the last couple of planes I opted to try Gorilla Glue, mainly since the original hinge slots were gaping holes no other material would fill properly. The advantage of the GG is it expands when curing from exposure to atmospheric moisture. You just have to keep watch as it expands it does not actually push one surface away from the other. To prevent this I tape them together, held at the proper distance.

In my own opinion CA hinges are perfectly acceptable on smaller models with smaller surfaces and light control loads. When working on something I expect to fly hard or will encounter significant loads(I try to build it only once......crashing does not count) then I opt for pin or Robart Hinges. Once complete I can almost guarantee I will never have to touch them again. With CA hinges I regularly do a security pull check.

p.s. At the first sign of failure I will and have replaced CA hinges with pin style. In may cases the smaller hinges are almost a direct replacement with very little hinge slot work required.
Old 06-11-2012, 07:03 PM
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I like point hinges and gorilla glue too. I shoot a little water in the hinge holes with a syringe, then the glue. I also swab vaseline all over the hinge to protect it. The glue is easy to trim away after an hour if it oozes out.

There used to be a builder in the area a few years ago, and he showed me a wing and aileron that he hinged with Robarts every 2 inches or so on an aileron that was maybe 2 feet in length. It was in a huge B-17. I became a believer in the perfect smoothness in so many hinges installed.
Old 06-16-2012, 12:06 AM
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N1EDM, that's the book, I find that the engines in that book are still relavent and the data in the book can be readily translated to the newer models.  Me I like to have reference books around that way I still have room in the memory box for more important things like which mix of cola and coconut rum I have been using that day.
Seriously I collect old data like this,  have a number of books showing the tests in old magazines for Veco's Ed's etc some written by Clarence Lee and other notables.  I use these references for my O/T flyng.  Gives me the edge when looking at some U beaut rear induction rear exhaust beastie that on test wouldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding (in the applications I use them for) but that cutie rear induction side exhaust K&B 3.5cc baby is in the right model a fire breathing dragon.
Horses for courses just like the old L188c / P3C I used to work on
Old 06-17-2012, 03:23 AM
  #22182  
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new topic on saito engines:

i have a problem:

I have a Saito GK 100

last weekend, i was flying my twist, and then, all of  a sudden,
i noticed plane lost power and stalled when i had place throttle to WO.

i got dead stick, and brought plane down.

when i landed plane, i noticed the vent tubing became disconnected from muffler nipple.

I am using blue silicon tubing, that is the small diameter.

well, i thought it was a fluke thing, i reattached it,

took plane off again, and
it did it again.

2nd dead stick.
i was able to glide plane down slowly.

i went home.


yesterday,
it did it to me again 3 more times.

then, i placed a piece of tygon tubing with a zip tie.

guess what happened,

it melted off.




does anyone have any suggestions.

thanks



Old 06-17-2012, 03:28 AM
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Did you zip tie the silicon tubing?
Old 06-17-2012, 03:48 AM
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Ort, can you show us a picture of the installation? Thanks, Dave
Old 06-17-2012, 03:51 AM
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I find even good quality silicone tubing will eventually lose resiliency. This means it will lose the ability to conform to the pressure nipple and/or split. Exposure to heat simply speeds this process. With lower quality tubing this happens much quicker, (to the point supposedly "New" tubing split when trying to use it). This was removed from the package and I suspect it had been sitting on the shelf for an excessively long time.

If you can cut it back even 1/2" try again to see if it will grip better. I second Spaceworm in recommending some form of clamp to hold the tubing to the fitting. I use the spring type as you can note in this Saito 91 installation in my Skybolt.

If the plane is sitting or flying straight and level and your motor immediately quits if the pressure line pops off even with a full tank then I would start looking at the tank height. The centerline of the tank should be even with the center of the carb.
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:56 AM
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429er. the reason I asked for a picture is that I think that the tube is being whipped by the prop blast. A picture would give us more to consider. I use those Clip-its when using a Cline regulator, I've never had a line blow off without them, but you never know.
Old 06-17-2012, 04:06 AM
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here are the pics.

i never used zip tie on the silicon

i was actually out on the field, and i found the zip tie on the ground and used that.
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Old 06-17-2012, 04:08 AM
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also, i had a plastic spinner on it, that came with plane, and someone posted that the spinner may fly off

this was suggested on an earlier post.

this did not happen,
however, the spinner plate did slip behind prop, so
i removed the spinner and plate,
and i finger flip now.
Old 06-17-2012, 04:11 AM
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We can rule out the prop blast, it looks like a good hook up.
Old 06-17-2012, 04:14 AM
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well, the carb is higher than tank midline
and

i made muff stick up so the least amout of oil gets on plane.

should i change any of these?
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Old 06-17-2012, 04:16 AM
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also,
i have had about 7 tanks of fuel thru the engine

when do most of you readjust valves?
Old 06-17-2012, 04:34 AM
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Depending on the age and service on the motor I found some rules to follow. Even with a brand new motor I at least pull the covers to check valve lash. Frequently I close that up to just above .001" anyway. Once the motor has a few hours break in it's time to recheck as this is normally the highest wear time in service. After that every few months is fine for me. I average 100 flights per season on the "Bolt.

You are limited to how high you will be able to lift the tank and keep some form of insulation. If the tank contact the airframe you can get fuel foaming and create another problem while trying to solve this one. From what I can see in the pics it appears you are using a thin walled tube. If clamping is not successful look at replacing the vent line with a good quality thick wall tubing.

Can you lower the motor mount centerline and retain ground clearance?

Although the angle is a bit extreme, the exhaust orientation should not cause any direct issues other than at the end of a run any remaining oil will drain back to the motor.

p.s. I also found silicone tubing can come with different amounts of flexibility. That thin wall option I brought up earlier came out to haunt me a while ago. When resurrecting a Seamaster after a 20+ year hiatus I found one little quirk that took months to find. Anything over 1/2 throttle had the motor starve for fuel. I cleaned the carb and every fuel system component exterior to the tank several times and in the most extreme I finally pulled the Fox 50BB and swapped in an OS 55AX. Nice engine and gads of power, but the problem remained. I finally traced it to that flexible tubing. During the rebuild I had installed that on the tank clunk line and found the vent line pressure at anything over half throttle caused it to collapse. Replaced that line with less flexible thick walled line and it is now a rocket.
Old 06-17-2012, 01:03 PM
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I have a Saito FA120 that needs new bearings and I noticed there are a few 120 engines. I was looking for the engine code is this one an "L" code? This will be my first time replacing bearings.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:17 PM
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Ok, I have a question for the wise Saito fellows. I have a 100 mounted inverted, no matter how I fill the tank I always manage to flood it.<div>It wouldn't start for nothing until I take the plug off and dry it. Is there a special glow plug that prevents this? How can I fill the tank without flooding the engine short of inverting the plane in the stand? HELPPPPP</div>
Old 06-17-2012, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Your tank is mounted too high compared to the carb. Tank centerline should be even with and on the same plane with the carb centerline. If it's close, you can place a loop in the fuel pick up tubing going to the carb so that the apex of the loop is above the tank.

Bob
Old 06-17-2012, 06:15 PM
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Here's a diagram.

Bob
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:16 PM
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Thx Bob. I'll try that
Old 06-17-2012, 06:44 PM
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smkrcflyer, the standard 120 is coded "LL". The front bearing is R6-ZZ and the larger rear bearing is MR6902-ZZ. The ZZ denotes metal shielding on both bearing faces.

NOTE: RS or 2RS denotes rubber seals. Not to be used for this app.

Since I modded my 91 for a front vent line I want flow through the rear bearing so remove both shields. DO NOT opt for an unshielded bearing as a replacement for either front or rear as they are thinner and will not space the crank correctly.


p.s. Don't forget to order a full gasket set and it may be prudent to wait till disassembly to check the cam and lifter faces for wear. Not the best option to reinstall them if that is the case and they are relatively inexpensive items.
Old 06-17-2012, 08:15 PM
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*
Hi lopflyers,

I'm not sure that will solve your problem. Anyslight increase in pressure in the tank as you are filling will force fuel through the clunk to the carby. This can occur even if the tank is vented via the muffler line.

Because the engine is inverted, the fuel can only go one way: straight to the inlet valve. The only way to avoid that is to vent the carby fuel line while you are filling up. If your engine is exposed, just pop the tube off the carby nipple while you are filling. If it's in a cowl, you will need a 2 way valve in the line to isolate the carby and divert any fuel overboard.

Or if you can get at the fuel line from underneath, use an in-line nipple, or even a short piece of metal tube, that you can pull the silicon tube off while filling the tank. Hope all that make sense...

Regards, RossG
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ORIGINAL: lopflyers

Thx Bob. I'll try that
Old 06-18-2012, 02:57 AM
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Hey Thanks all</p>

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