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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 07-05-2012, 02:25 AM
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Another puzzling problem solved by the Saito gurus.
Old 07-05-2012, 04:38 AM
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Hey Ern, when in doubt, make your own. I grew up modifying farm to machinery to make it work better. I put a Ford Thunderbird 312 with 225 hp in a 1950 Ford F5 dump truck that had 85 hp. I re-worked the suspension on my Sportster so it rides better than a BMW. The thing is, if something doesn't suit you, aim high and do it yourself. It is so sad that todays youth, with a very few exceptions, can't do anything that requires more than pushing a button. My neighbors were totally amazed when I installed a new Universal Joint in my 199,000 miled 1995 F-150 and did it mostly with one arm. There is a heap of satisfaction in stuff like that.
Old 07-05-2012, 04:51 AM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Hobbsy, innovation seems a thing of the past. I too have been pulling stunts like you describe as long as I remember, (rebuilt my first car at 12 and was repairing pinball machines at 14). I think the combination of a garage full of tools and lots of time helped.

One of the oddest was to install power steering in a 1937 Mule aircraft tug, (you can spot one for a few seconds towing a PBY in the movie "Tora Tora Tora"). The original steering box was toast and horrendously expensive to rebuild. I did have to farm out plasma cutting the pump mount and welding two different pitman arms together, (cast, what fun!). The end result was gratifying and gave a good place to mount the wood steering wheel from my Mustang. The Mule is still around. I'm heading back to the airport where it's used in a few weeks and will try and remember to take a digital photo.

The result of all of that was I had a team ready to go to that ultimate tinkerers forum, "Junkyard Wars" until we found we would have had to cover travel and lodging expenses ourselves, (****?). I was pretty confident of my team, the "Autopilots".

p.s. I sure got some strange looks rolling around the airport parking lots looking under everything for a steering box with the correct geometry to fit the Mule.
Old 07-05-2012, 07:03 AM
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My wife used to wonder about stuff in my shop. It's material waiting to be made into something.
Old 07-05-2012, 08:11 AM
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Barry, I finally got the TurboHeader mounted on the 1.50, belwo are the rsults using the old stock fire hose nozzle muffler and then the newer cast muffler.

Top rpm with Mejzlik 16x8 is 8,950 that's about 150 rpm better than glow at 15%.
Picture #1 shows running about 6,000 rpm
Picture #2, shows Perry pump which I did not use. I did use a Cline regulator, I worried that the Perry would drown the plug.
Picture #3 shows serious bulge in stiff walled Sullivan tank, the fire hose nozzle muffler makes serious pressure.
Picture #4 shows tight spacing, could not install TurboHeader, yet. I gotta cypher on that a while. With the timing at 30 degrees BTC I am pleased.
Picture #5 show prop.
Idl is 1,700 with no hint of quitting.
Fuel==WildCat 15% 2/4 with ful synthetic.

With the Turbo Header installed as seen here it turned 9,250. it ran slightly ragged so one click rich made it rock steady at 9,200, same Mejzlick same fuel et al.

PS, in this picture the prop is a Graupner 15x8 three blade which it turned at 8.400 rpm. I ran about 8oz of fuel through with that prop then switched to the Mejzlick 16x8.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:22 AM
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Dave,

I like the extension you have on the muffler. Is that a rivet holding it? I hope you are feeling better.

Jim
Old 07-05-2012, 08:43 AM
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Thanks Jim, I'm still serving my sentence to lift no more than 5 lbs until Sept 4th. Impatience is running rampant but Geri watches over me like a hawk.

There are two 2/56 screws carefully ground down to not protrude onto the flow. The red line you see in the mix is the vent tube which is plumbed into the brass tube. I am very pleased with that set up, the TH makes plenty of pressure for Cline regulator. The ignition system works flawlessly as well.
Old 07-05-2012, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Guys,

I am ready to start breaking in my "older" NIB 6 year or 7 year old Saito 1.80. Any sugestions on fuel?? I gather it should be a low nitro content fuel. Also, do you guys hand flip these with a chicken stik or do any of you use a torque starte. Seems to me it would have to be a pretty large torque starter to wind over the engine. Also, I gather to run the engine on the rich side, any sugestions on when and how many tanks it should see before I began tweeking the high and low speed settings???

Thanks

Paul
Old 07-05-2012, 09:27 AM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Barry, I finally got the TurboHeader mounted on the 1.50, belwo are the rsults using the old stock fire hose nozzle muffler and then the newer cast muffler.

Top rpm with Mejzlik 16x8 is 8,950 that's about 150 rpm better than glow at 15%.
Picture #1 shows running about 6,000 rpm
Picture #2, shows Perry pump which I did not use. I did use a Cline regulator, I worried that the Perry would drown the plug.
Picture #3 shows serious bulge in stiff walled Sullivan tank, the fire hose nozzle muffler makes serious pressure.
Picture #4 shows tight spacing, could not install TurboHeader, yet. I gotta cypher on that a while. With the timing at 30 degrees BTC I am pleased.
Picture #5 show prop.
Idl is 1,700 with no hint of quitting.
Fuel==WildCat 15% 2/4 with ful synthetic.

With the Turbo Header installed as seen here it turned 9,250. it ran slightly ragged so one click rich made it rock steady at 9,200, same Mejzlick same fuel et al.

PS, in this picture the prop is a Graupner 15x8 three blade which it turned at 8.400 rpm. I ran about 8oz of fuel through with that prop then switched to the Mejzlick 16x8.

So you picked up 400 RPM all things equal except for the Turboheader muffler?

I haven't seen any lowest dependable idle RPM. after the switch to EI.

What were your results in that respect?
Old 07-05-2012, 09:27 AM
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Paul, Saito says the engine is ready to fly after 40 minutes, the most important minutes is the first ten whcih should at 4,000 or less with the throttle at 1/4 to 1/3 open, then the Saito instruction are very vague so I invented my own program.

10 minutes @ 4,000
10 minutes @ 5,000
10 minutes @ 6,000
refill tank
10 minutes @ 7,000 with bursts to full throttle.

Peak HS needle at and leave it at peak setting and procede to set LS needle by leaning it 1/8th turn at a time. CHecking transition and top rpm after every other change, it sounds complicated but is a piece of cake. When leaning the LS needle keep reducing the throttle opening as the idle improves
Old 07-05-2012, 10:29 AM
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Dave,

Is the vent fitting at an angle in the brass tube? That should create a vacuum to pull the excess oil out.

Jim
Old 07-05-2012, 12:48 PM
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Jim, it is at an acute angle as shown, the Perry pump has since been removed and replaced with a Cline Regulator, a far superior piece of equipment.

SR, the latest idle rpm is 1,500 for timed three minutes, Iposted 1,700 above but have improved it a little using the DA 18x6 helped too I think..
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Old 07-05-2012, 01:00 PM
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Dave,

That is a cool set up with good numbers.

Jim
Old 07-05-2012, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Paul, Saito says the engine is ready to fly after 40 minutes, the most important minutes is the first ten whcih should at 4,000 or less with the throttle at 1/4 to 1/3 open, then the Saito instruction are very vague so I invented my own program.

10 minutes @ 4,000
10 minutes @ 5,000
10 minutes @ 6,000
refill tank
10 minutes @ 7,000 with bursts to full throttle.

Peak HS needle at and leave it at peak setting and procede to set LS needle by leaning it 1/8th turn at a time. CHecking transition and top rpm after every other change, it sounds complicated but is a piece of cake. When leaning the LS needle keep reducing the throttle opening as the idle improves

My 200Ti manual says the 1st run should be run @ WOT using the HS needle (initial setting @ 5 turns out) to adjust maximun RPM to 4500 RPM for 5 seconds, then richen up more to reduce RPM (unspecified) for 45 seconds, then return to 4500 RPM for 5 seconds, richen up for reduced RPM for 45 seconds, etc, repeating this for one tankfull. (again unspecified) Always W/WOT using the HS needle to adjust maximum RPM

After that, do not exceed 8000 RPM for several tankfulls. (again unspecified) After that, adjust HS needle for "maximum performance".

Rather ambiguous if you ask me. I think I will employ your above time table,
10 minutes @ 4,000
10 minutes @ 5,000
10 minutes @ 6,000
utilizing the HS needle for maximum RPM adjustment @ WOT of + 500 RPM then return to the table RPM for 45 seconds, etc. Then run for several (8oz) tankfulls @ various (throttle regulated) RPM up to 8000 RPM, again using the HS needle for maximum RPM adjustment @ WOT. I'll use an 16 X 8 Zinger prop for break in.
Old 07-05-2012, 01:34 PM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Jim, it is at an acute angle as shown, the Perry pump has since been removed and replaced with a Cline Regulator, a far superior piece of equipment.

SR, the latest idle rpm is 1,500 for timed three minutes, Iposted 1,700 above but have improved it a little using the DA 18x6 helped too I think..

Your initial timing advance 0f 30* BTDC W/15% nitro fuel might be a bit more than needed. It probably is not hurting your maximum output RPM, but IME, there is several degrees of advance that yield no benifit or detrimint to WOT RPM. By retarding the advance to the least amount that does not reduce WOT RPM, you should see significant improvement in reduced idle speed dependability.

I got down to a rock steady 1400 RPM in m standard compression FA150 on 15% Cool Power & hand starting is "so easy, a cavemman could do it"..

I would suggest that you mark your trigger magnet ring & experiment W/retarding the timing 2* @ a time until you find the minimum advance that will still maintain maximum WOT performance. You will then have the optimum setting for both high speed & idle performance.
Old 07-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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Thanks SR, I'll check that out.
Old 07-05-2012, 02:40 PM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Thanks SR, I'll check that out.

Once you learn how versitile EI is, you'll love it.

You won't need a high mAh battery pack eiother. A 750 mAh Nmh will last for many flights & a quick charge every now & then between flights will keep you flying until your fuel supply runs out for the day.

I set up a switch/charge port just tike one would use for the Rx battery.

I used to run a gallon of 15% Cool Power a week through my FA150 on C&H EI.
Old 07-05-2012, 02:54 PM
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When running any Saito the factory recommends WOT with rpm being adjusted by the HS needle controlling the richness of the mixture, at SAM 84 we follow this procedure and have no trouble at all.   Additionally once the first couple of tanks (about 20oz total) are trough the engine I try to do the rest of the running in in the air using a model like a "floater" type trainer.  Round and around boring but beneficial to the engine as as Gen said the engine will tell you when it is run in some take longer than others but done gently they last a long time and the process is well worth the end result.
Re modern youth, my accountant son has realised that "doing stuff" like oil changes, brake pads etc saves money. only problem is that he shares my old workshop with his tin brother.  And now they can't agree on which way to go (rally or oval) with the 240Z they are restoring to race, but I guess one will survive and direct the operation  
Old 07-05-2012, 04:24 PM
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A couple of those "cherry bomb" looking mufflers as in photo 1 look like they would fit my Saito 300 twin, rather than the straight pipes they come with, I wonder if there's anything critical about those flex pipes because I have thought about experimenting with something more trick.
Old 07-05-2012, 05:45 PM
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Flex pipes look good, but they have a reputation for cracking.
Old 07-05-2012, 07:22 PM
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My m,anuals all say to start the breaking process with the throttle 1/4 to 1/4 open and 4,000 rpm for 10 minutes. Not full throttle.
Old 07-05-2012, 09:27 PM
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First flight of my H9 Fokker DVII with the FA80 went very well. What a great engine and combo. I think I'm falling in love with 4 strokes and Saito in particular.

RJ
Old 07-06-2012, 04:02 AM
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ORIGINAL: blw

Flex pipes look good, but they have a reputation for cracking.
Haven't they also been seen to REDUCE performance a bit?
Old 07-06-2012, 04:26 AM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Rowdyjoe, welcome to the world of 4-strokes. If like me that put well over 25 years in this hobby before firing up his first, you'll wonder what took so long.

True about Saitos. Kind of makes sense when you realize they ONLY build 4-strokes.
Old 07-06-2012, 05:39 AM
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ORIGINAL: a70eliminator

A couple of those ''cherry bomb'' looking mufflers as in photo 1 look like they would fit my Saito 300 twin, rather than the straight pipes they come with, I wonder if there's anything critical about those flex pipes because I have thought about experimenting with something more trick.

There's no real advantage to the flex pipes other than making exhuast routing in a cowl easier



ORIGINAL: blw

Flex pipes look good, but they have a reputation for cracking.
You have to make sure they are mounted securely W/little extending beyond the mount. On my 300 TTDP I added a secondary stabilizing bracket that secured bith pipes to each other.

I had about 2" extending beyond the bracket & a harmonic set up in the pipes @ certain RPM & I could see the ends of the pipes shaking. The stabilizing bracket cured that problem.

On a single cylinder or single crank throw twin it is going to take some engineering to reduce ANY flex on the end to as near zero as possible.

If you see any flex @ all, the pipe will most likely crack & they are about $40 a pop! On my FA150 I silver soldered a brass cartridge case to the flex pipe after it broke off right beyond the mount.

Also make sure you bend the flex pipes so that they lay in the mount naturally. If you "pull" the pipe into position W/the mount it WILL crack.

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