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Old 03-20-2013, 06:30 AM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Hey OF, how about this for a group hug?
AWWW!!! That's Cute
Old 03-20-2013, 06:35 AM
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ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Lets have a group hug just about anything is smoother than my 220!

What is the fuel consumpsion rate of the FA220 @ WOT?
Old 03-20-2013, 06:45 AM
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Thanks Hart, I take the engines off of the planes every winter, so they were available for the, (photo op). They are from sort of right to left,
An early 1991 high compression 1.50S
Early high compression .80 from maybe the early 80s.
A .65 from the blue and white box era
A .62 that's about 3 years old
An FA .40 age uncertain
An early .30 that Bill Robison borrowed for his Saito notes and for a joke he painted/colorized the cylinder black.
Old 03-20-2013, 06:56 AM
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Jim, we had discussed the high compression Saito a while back on the phone, here are part of the specs in a 1987 Clarence Lee engine test.



January 1987 R/C Modeler
Vol. 24 - No. 1 - Pg. 218
Site Sponsor: R/C Modeler
Product Review

SAITO FA-80

By
Clarenece Lee



SPECIFICATIONS

Type: Single cylinder, 4-stroke cycle, air cooled, glow ignition
Bore: 27.0mm (1.063")
Stroke: 22.8mm (.898")
Displacement: 13.06cc (.799 cu. In.)
Compression ratio: 15.5:1
Weight: 19.5 oz. (with muffler)
Rpm range: 2,000 - 11,500
Manufacturer: Saito Seisakusho, Ltd., Chiba Prefecture, Japan
U.S. Importer: United Model Distributors, Wheeling, Illinois
Old 03-20-2013, 08:45 AM
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Hi Guys,<div>
</div><div> Sorry for the repeat on this question... I have found plenty of people posting the question, but too many pages to find a direct answer.</div><div>
</div><div>I have a brand new FA-100 GK, going with OS-F, PM 20/20 fuel, and putting her in a Revolver 70"...she should have some giddy-up!  Anyway, I would like to use, b/c of the cowl, a Slimline Pitts Muffler w/ engine in a side-mount.... my questions are:</div><div>
</div><div>1.  Does anyone have some real results of using this muffler on a FA-100 (or other) that shows any loss/increase in RPM's, if any??</div><div>2.  Any suggestions on engine break-in other than the OEM instructions?</div><div>3.  Any setup conditions or gotcha's that I should be aware or looking out for?  Tips/techniques??</div><div>
</div><div>Thank you in advance for your help &amp; understanding.</div><div>
</div><div>Don</div>
Old 03-20-2013, 09:51 AM
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I have a Kelep exhaust ($100) that I used on my Hanger 9 Spitfire. I was usedwith my Saito FG17 and it cam be used on a Saito 100. If anyone is interested let me know.


108buzz

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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VictoryRoll, I have been using Slimlines on both the 100 and 125 and find no discernible drop in power. You may find them a bit louder due to the double outlet, but if you orient the plane so the outlet from a stock exhaust is facing towards you the sound levels should be close. Only thing I have seen lately is a change to a different O-ring compound at the mounting flange to better handle the hot exhaust gasses. If you use identical torque to the stock exhaust tube it should not come loose, but I have seen where the muffler can pivot a bit. ensure you have clearance to anything critical and keep watch for the first few runs to see if it moves.

If this is your first Saito be advised they have the nasty habit of coming to a complete and instant stop if run lean, (with a good chance even their safety lock setup will eject with the prop). For safety ensure NO person is within the prop danger arc, basically anywhere in line or ahead of the prop disc, when throttle is advance off idle. It is also a good idea to point the aircraft in a direction avoiding risk to property, as well. After a few tankfuls during the manufacturers recommended break in you may want to open the rocker covers to recheck the valve lash. I found once settled in that only needed to be done again once per season.

As with any new engine, it's always a good idea to have a few extra plugs as wear particles inevitably created when the engine wears in can kill them.

On a final note, cowled motors need adequate cooling airflow to avoid overheating. I found on my first Satio 91 there were no problems for the dozen or so uncowled setup flights, but it overheated immediately with it installed. I had to mod the cowl to direct airflow identical to what we use in real aircraft. Never had a recurrence in over 300 subsequent flights. I've since used the same technique on all my cowled Saitos with good results.
Old 03-20-2013, 12:38 PM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

H-man, those are Cline regulators, I just did that having a little fun however it worked really well. As an experiment I placed the fuel tank as far as I could at the back end of the bench and it didn't change a thing. The Cline regulator is relatively unheralded product that will cure any kind of tank placement problem. Its not adjustable so there is no learning curve beyond reading the instruction.
Aside from the material susceptible to damage when exposed to gasoline, could something like the Cline fuel regulator be used for small gasoline engines instead of a pumper carb like the Walbro or Saitos gas carbs?
Old 03-20-2013, 12:48 PM
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They surely can, in fact I visited with Jim Cline at Joe Nall a few years ago and he said the diaphragm would actually last longer when used with gasoline or Diesel fuel. The body is fine with glow or Diesel. He said that the diaphragm should be changed yearly on glow fuel.
Old 03-20-2013, 01:33 PM
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@Cougar: Wow... that was a GREAT reply! And, yes, I am a newbie Saito user . I have actually had the Saito 100 for about 3 years, sitting on the shelf, getting 6 mos. Mystery Oil/Castor Oil home brew mix in all available places w/o removal of valve covers, et al.)
That info was perfect and so greatly appreciated. I will probably start with the OEM muffler and see what it does for RPM's, and then the Slimline afterward for comparison, but I just needed to know if I am chasing a broken path to best operation in changing out the OEM to the Slimline Pitts.

You have been SOoooo helpful, esp. with the <u>critical warning</u> that you expressed which is positively enormous. I would hate to lose my intenstines on an engine stop and flying prop ! That was huge... THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!! I will be running it sloppy rich until she breaks in... I am not in a hurry and like doing things slowly AND correctly.

Again, Cougar, I greatly appreciate your help, understanding and knowledge.

Don<br type="_moz" />
Old 03-20-2013, 01:45 PM
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Don, the sloppy rich is only for the very important first 10 minutes
I have ritual I use for every Saito and it has produced 30 some perfect break in jobs, not all mine of course.

10 minutes at 4,000 with the throttle at 1/4 to 1/3 open
10 minutes at 5,000
10 minutes at 6,000, refuel and set HS needle at about 3 urns
10 minutes at 7,000 with short runs to full throttle
At the 40 minute mark set HS needle at full peak and leave it there while setting the LS needle, leaning it 1/8th turn at a time. Follow the improved idle by closing the throttle more and more as the idle improves. Check transition and idle after every other LS needle change. This sounds complicated and involved but becomes a no brainer after your second or third Saito.
Old 03-20-2013, 02:32 PM
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Hobbsy, I have seen and read many of your entries here in RCU and I have to first thank you for taking the time to help me with my process for a good, correct, and proven break-in process.

I have only been a 2-stroke engine user up to this point and as such I am a bit nervous about anything that is new. My tendencies are to always read, read, and then read some more on a topic or product, however, the 'ol 80/20 rule applies in any new endeavor and reading enough info (80%) that you have a good foundation, and then I sometimes go that extra 20% and spend it not only learning more than I need to know, but also start to question my original thoughts, process or methods, lol.... typical engineer (EE), huh?

It is so great to have people like yourself, Cougar429, and many others that I meet on RCU, and get valuable insight into the what's, when's, where's, why's and how's... again I appreciate everyone's help and their highly respected knowledge.

Thank you for that break-in method... I will be employing in a week or so (the weather has been terrible here in Boston area. I love the sound of a Saito and am so looking forward to having this engine in my Revolver 70" and her on her maiden (as I stand directing her with my "kness-a-knockin'" !


Again, thank you.

Don
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: VictoryRoll

Hi Guys,<div>
</div><div> Sorry for the repeat on this question... I have found plenty of people posting the question, but too many pages to find a direct answer.</div><div>
</div><div>I have a brand new FA-100 GK, going with OS-F, PM 20/20 fuel, and putting her in a Revolver 70''...she should have some giddy-up! Anyway, I would like to use, b/c of the cowl, a Slimline Pitts Muffler w/ engine in a side-mount.... my questions are:</div><div>
</div><div>1. Does anyone have some real results of using this muffler on a FA-100 (or other) that shows any loss/increase in RPM's, if any??</div><div>2. Any suggestions on engine break-in other than the OEM instructions?</div><div>3. Any setup conditions or gotcha's that I should be aware or looking out for? Tips/techniques??</div><div>
</div><div>Thank you in advance for your help & understanding.</div><div>
</div><div>Don</div>
Have you looked at the turboheader mufflers??they are smaller and much lighter than oem from saito.I hav'nt put a tach on my engine before or after fitting but others have and report gaining rpm as well.
Old 03-20-2013, 05:29 PM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Hey OF, how about this for a group hug?
Good for a big belly laugh
Old 03-20-2013, 05:34 PM
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Lets have a group hug just about anything is smoother than my 220!

What is the fuel consumpsion rate of the FA220 @ WOT?
On the test bench last year i had a 24oz tank behind the engine.At wot i could watch the level go down
Old 03-20-2013, 06:22 PM
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ORIGINAL: Old Fart


ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Lets have a group hug just about anything is smoother than my 220!

What is the fuel consumpsion rate of the FA220 @ WOT?
On the test bench last year i had a 24oz tank behind the engine.At wot i could watch the level go down
WOW, maybe that's why they discontinued it.

I know that on glow ignition, an FA180 is pretty thirsty compared to a 150, but once I put CDI on the 180, the fuel consumpsion was about the same as the 150 on glow ignition.
Old 03-21-2013, 04:11 AM
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Engine break in procedure from "The Complete Saito Notes by Bill Robison" http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5843082

Break in of a fresh engine

A piston ring is seated in the first few seconds of engine running after its installation. This holds from the smallest to the largest of ringed engines, and is dependent on cylinder pressure to force the ring against the bore. Therefore, the initial running should be done at a high power setting.

My way is to allow the engine a few seconds to come up in temperature, then I immediately peak the mixture at full throttle, then right back to idle. For the first few minutes of running the engine goes to full throttle for about five seconds, then back to a rich idle for twenty. This gives me the high cylinder pressure to seat the ring while at full, and then at idle more oil is spread on the working parts.

After these first few minutes I'll go back to full and get about 800 rich drop, then lean the idle a bit but not all the way, and put the engine in a plane. Over the next hour or two I'll slowly lean the idle, and bring the HS closer to peak. After a couple hours total time the engine is all ready for extended high power, and I've been able to fly the fuel through the engine instead of oiling the grass at my house. Or not oiling the grass as much as many do.
Old 03-21-2013, 04:28 AM
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Dan, Wild Bill actually liked and endorsed my method of doing it.
Old 03-21-2013, 06:05 AM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dan, Wild Bill actually liked and endorsed my method of doing it.
I advocate a combination of the methods. Limiting RPM while maximizing cylinder pressure W/short WOT bursts W/a rich needle setting.

Rings seat best under mderate cylinder pressure so some short busts of WOT best facilitate that. I do not bring revs up to max or stay @ WOT more than for a few seconds. I have used that method on air cooled motorcycle engines as well as water cooled automotive engines & of course my Saitos. The key is to maximize cylinder pressure while keeping stress (high RPM) to a minimum. Most of my Saito engines that are broken in thus develope HP levels @ or sligtly above Saito spec's. (if they are ever run on glow ignition to check power output, some are run on CDI from the start)

I do not "peak" the HSN mixture until there is some time on the engine as doing so would require maximum RPM.. So as far as the RPM levels during break-in we are (somewhat) in agreement.

Old 03-21-2013, 09:25 AM
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@108buzz: Thanks for that info &amp; pic... it does look like one awesome exhaust for that Spitfire. I'll check it out too.

@Old Fart: Yes, I read about them too... I will probably buy one of the turbo's just to see how it performs in the plane and on the tach. Initially I am trying to get her up &amp; running smooth, but I imagine that when I am getting ansy for an uptick in performance, I will try it out. Thanks !

@Hobbsy &amp; @ SrTele: Ok, you're getting me confused... (which is not that difficult these days) Should I go @Hobbsy's or Mr. Robison's or a mix of the two break-in method's (which I would need some direction with)???


Thanks for your help,

Don
Old 03-21-2013, 10:38 AM
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Wm. Robison liked my method because it was simple, easy to keep track of, and repeatable and eliminates confusion. I came with up with it because the Horizon method explains the first 10 minutes and then leaves you hanging. It eliminates using "various methods". Saito considers the engine ready to use in 40 minutes.
Old 03-21-2013, 10:44 AM
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I agree with the elimination of various methods... that is a surefire way to disaster if you ask me.
Thanks Hobbsy, much appreciated.

Don
Old 03-21-2013, 11:05 AM
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Don, one thing you will find is that about halfway through the 2nd or 3rd 10 minutes run the engine will gain 200 to 500 rpm as it loosens up and ring seals better etc. I just let it do it because freer and easier is what we're after.
Old 03-21-2013, 11:09 AM
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I am about to attempt setting the valve lash on my Saito FA82 for the first time. I have done it on other brands and old cars. From what I read, .002" is the setting? That means .002" passes the gap, but nothing thicker?

Anything else I should look out for? Thanks.
Old 03-21-2013, 11:20 AM
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I use .004 because that's what the Saito guage is but others use .002 just fine. I use the no drag but touching method and it has served me well.

Here is a 1991 Saito 1.50 cylinder I busted, "ham fisted" about 3 years ago, their cylinders are really high quality. No wear marks after all those years.
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