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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 04-29-2013, 07:21 PM
  #24751  
blw
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The Flying King does well with an 80.
Old 04-30-2013, 02:51 AM
  #24752  
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Thanks Dan, I would like to have one for a Bruce Tharpe Super Plying King future project. Although I should finish my current Flying King for a Saito .80.
The rush to gas has made these engine more affordable.

Right now Horizon will ship a new FA450R3D for $1099. I am working on a deal for a nice used FA450R3D engine. The prices have dropped for used examples as well.

If you get one consider going to CDI. IMO Saito should have offered CDI for this engine in the 1st place.

As thirsty as the 450s are, the CDI will pay for itself in short order.
Old 04-30-2013, 05:07 AM
  #24753  
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dan, is that the gasoline one or the real one? I guess I could look myself.
We know what you really meant.
Old 04-30-2013, 05:16 AM
  #24754  
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At more than a litre a flight you won't get many arguments here
Old 04-30-2013, 05:36 AM
  #24755  
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ORIGINAL: Old Fart

At more than a litre a flight you won't get many arguments here
When you throttle back a methanol CDI version to the same power output of the gasoline engine, there will be a far less gap in fuel usage.

Don't forget that when nitro is eliminated, F/A ratios drop even further if fuel economy is more important than power output.

A properly set up methanol CDI engine of similar displacenment W/some nitro can make up to 40% more HP than a CDI/gas version. EG: My FA180HC CDI BBC engine makes 3.5HP W/15% Cool power fuel while the FG30 makes 2.5HP. If I tip the bottle to 30% nitro HP output jumps to 4 HP (8850 RPM W/an 18X8 prop)

It will also be interesting to see how the FG84 engines cope W/high ambient temperatures since they will run much hotter than methanol fueled engines.

I've been doing this since 1997, so it's nothing new to me.

I'm waiting for some fuel consumption testing before I commit to a 32oz tank in my TF GS FW190.

32oz should give @ least 15 minutes WOT run time. 24oz might be enough for reasonable flight times when not running WOT all the time.
Old 05-01-2013, 05:55 AM
  #24756  
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Jay, from what you're saying I gather that the .91 does not have an idle speed adjustment screw holding the barrel open. This is an .80 carb with the idle speed adjustment screw.

Made a discovery this morning. With the throttle lever off the barrel, it will travel from full open to full closed and not leave any gap. What does happen is that the end of the barrel where the step down is for the idle screw and lever mounting goes in past the edge of the carb body at full closed. I then mounted the lever all the way onto the step down in the full open position as it had been before. As I closed the throttle I found that the lever arm housing made contact with the carb body and that was what had been limiting the travel and not the slot and stud as I had thought. I repositioned the lever out away from the end of the barrel and it now travels from full open to full closed. I looked at another Saito carb and noticed that the end of barrel is flush with the carb body at full closed rather than indented like this one. I had swapped lever arms with another Saito 91 that I sent in for service so maybe there is a different design on the original one.

Mystery solved anyway.

Jaybird
Old 05-01-2013, 07:24 AM
  #24757  
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ORIGINAL: Jaybird

ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Jay, from what you're saying I gather that the .91 does not have an idle speed adjustment screw holding the barrel open. This is an .80 carb with the idle speed adjustment screw.

Made a discovery this morning. With the throttle lever off the barrel, it will travel from full open to full closed and not leave any gap. What does happen is that the end of the barrel where the step down is for the idle screw and lever mounting goes in past the edge of the carb body at full closed. I then mounted the lever all the way onto the step down in the full open position as it had been before. As I closed the throttle I found that the lever arm housing made contact with the carb body and that was what had been limiting the travel and not the slot and stud as I had thought. I repositioned the lever out away from the end of the barrel and it now travels from full open to full closed. I looked at another Saito carb and noticed that the end of barrel is flush with the carb body at full closed rather than indented like this one. I had swapped lever arms with another Saito 91 that I sent in for service so maybe there is a different design on the original one.

Mystery solved anyway.

Jaybird
Just mount the throttle lever flush when the barrel is in the fully closed position.

It is held in place by a set screw so I would not think that having it fully seated would not be manditory.

Either that, or use a "safe file" to set back the "step" on the throttle arm barrel.
Old 05-01-2013, 08:05 AM
  #24758  
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Yes, it's a set screw that holds it on and with a gap behind it, it will work. The carb body is what it makes contact with in the fully closed position so it would either be that end of the aluminum body that would have to be filed or the back of the lever arm.

Thanks for the help!

Jaybird
Old 05-01-2013, 08:51 AM
  #24759  
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ORIGINAL: Jaybird

Yes, it's a set screw that holds it on and with a gap behind it, it will work. The carb body is what it makes contact with in the fully closed position so it would either be that end of the aluminum body that would have to be filed or the back of the lever arm.

Thanks for the help!

Jaybird
If it were me I would work on the throttle lever barrel.

A "safe file" (file that has teeth removed from one side) would allow you to modify (deepen) the step on the barrel easily in a few minutes time.

It sounds like it's the throttle lever that is at fault so it would not make sense to modify the carburetor body.
Old 05-01-2013, 09:18 AM
  #24760  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Agreed. And again, I've swapped out engines to send one in for service and swapped lever arms in the process. When the original engine gets back this lever arm may work fine without modification on the original carb.

All is good now!

Jaybird
Old 05-07-2013, 06:19 AM
  #24761  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Hi All,

I purchased a used FA-100. I'm having trouble with the idle and need to know what the factory position for the needle is.

In the manual for this size engine it calls for "the face of the screw to be FLUSH with the throttle arm housing".

I know there are two type of throttle arms. One metal (which I have on my 220) and plastic which I have on this 100.

I have a note in my manual, that I jotted down awhile ago, that the needle should be 1/16" IN from the surface of the plastic throttle arm housing.

Can someone verify which starting position is correct.

At the present time my low needle is 1/16" in from the plastic arm surface. The engine starts fine and has good high speed, but the idle flucuates.

In other words, once started each time I go from high speed to low the idle seems to change and will not stay constant.

At this point I have....

1. Checked the valve adjustment. It's good.

2. removed the high needle and cleaned it.

3. Replaced the fuel lines to make sure there was no obstructions.

So I now think I need to concentrate on the low needle adjustment.

Two questions...

1. Can the low needle be removed like the high needle so I can clean and check for debris.

2. What is the proper position for the low needle screw head in relation to the PLASTIC throttle arm.

Thanks

Tom
Old 05-07-2013, 09:18 AM
  #24762  
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Hi Hobbsy

(Referring to your experiments of using Clines on several engines may I ask some advice / opinion)

What do you think: Will a straight pipe of let's say 9mm inside diameter generate enough pressure for the Cline system in case no muffler is being used? I want to try straight pipe with my Saito / Laser engines as the noise isn't an issue in where I fly and extra power never hurts. Besides can a Saito be too load at all?

So free flowing straight pipe, the pressure nipple mounted at 1-1,5 inch from the cylinder head and the checkvalve + plumbing as described in the Cline instructions? Could it work bearing in mind the Cline system is said to need 2-12 psi pressure in the tank?

See the attched picture to help with the orientation on what I mean by straight pipe


thanks & regards Artto
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:45 AM
  #24763  
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dan, Wild Bill actually liked and endorsed my method of doing it.
I advocate a combination of the methods. Limiting RPM while maximizing cylinder pressure W/short WOT bursts W/a rich needle setting.

Rings seat best under mderate cylinder pressure so some short busts of WOT best facilitate that. I do not bring revs up to max or stay @ WOT more than for a few seconds. I have used that method on air cooled motorcycle engines as well as water cooled automotive engines & of course my Saitos. The key is to maximize cylinder pressure while keeping stress (high RPM) to a minimum. Most of my Saito engines that are broken in thus develope HP levels @ or sligtly above Saito spec's. (if they are ever run on glow ignition to check power output, some are run on CDI from the start)

I do not ''peak'' the HSN mixture until there is some time on the engine as doing so would require maximum RPM.. So as far as the RPM levels during break-in we are (somewhat) in agreement.

SrTele,

I'll be running in my rebuilt FA-125a this weekend:

What do you think about the fuel?

I'v been thinking of a a running-in mix of 20% castor + 10% nitro for the first 40 minutes ( 4 tanks or so) on very rich needle setting to keeps temps down & ensure very good lubrication & film strength

Then change of fuel to 17% good quality synthetic + 10% nitro and flying the model up in the air with needles still richer than normal for the first 4-5 tanks

Then setting the needles, both HS and LS to regular setting, i.e. from peak to -300-500rpm and LS to produce good transition (was it now such that with FA-125a you start with the LS needle flush with the lever?)


How does this sound?




Old 05-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #24764  
SrTelemaster150
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

ORIGINAL: AeroFinn


ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dan, Wild Bill actually liked and endorsed my method of doing it.
I advocate a combination of the methods. Limiting RPM while maximizing cylinder pressure W/short WOT bursts W/a rich needle setting.

Rings seat best under mderate cylinder pressure so some short busts of WOT best facilitate that. I do not bring revs up to max or stay @ WOT more than for a few seconds. I have used that method on air cooled motorcycle engines as well as water cooled automotive engines & of course my Saitos. The key is to maximize cylinder pressure while keeping stress (high RPM) to a minimum. Most of my Saito engines that are broken in thus develope HP levels @ or sligtly above Saito spec's. (if they are ever run on glow ignition to check power output, some are run on CDI from the start)

I do not ''peak'' the HSN mixture until there is some time on the engine as doing so would require maximum RPM.. So as far as the RPM levels during break-in we are (somewhat) in agreement.

SrTele,

I'll be running in my rebuilt FA-125a this weekend:

What do you think about the fuel?

I'v been thinking of a a running-in mix of 20% castor + 10% nitro for the first 40 minutes ( 4 tanks or so) on very rich needle setting to keeps temps down & ensure very good lubrication & film strength

Then change of fuel to 17% good quality synthetic + 10% nitro and flying the model up in the air with needles still richer than normal for the first 4-5 tanks

Then setting the needles, both HS and LS to regular setting, i.e. from peak to -300-500rpm and LS to produce good transition (was it now such that with FA-125a you start with the LS needle flush with the lever?)


How does this sound?




Too much lube & a grossly over rich mixture defeats the purpose of break-in & can glaze the cylinder walls.

I would jut use whatever fuel you will fly with & I am NOT a fan of castor oil in Saito engines. Your 17% syn 10% nitro mix sound fine to me. Make sure you are using an appropriate propeller. Maybe a 15 x 8 or 16 X 6?

Set your mixture (factory recommmended start up) rich for the 1st few minutes but then lean it out a bit but not peak. Just open the throttle to WOT & observe the RPM W/O running it WOT for more than a few seconds. If you can't hit 4000 RPM on a short burst of WOT you are too rich!

As you get time on the engine (2nd tank) increase WOT duration a few seconds at a time to make sure you are not running so rich that it won't rev. You sould see about 75% of what you think would be peak or you are too rich. It's OK to bring te revs up, but cut the throttle after each short burst. DO NOT run WOT for very long until you have "sneaked up" on maximum RPM after several tanks of fuel.

After 40 mnutes you can peak it & back off as you described.
Old 05-08-2013, 04:10 AM
  #24765  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Leave the lsn rich at factory settings and lean the hsn first,do the lsn needle afterwards
Old 05-08-2013, 04:12 AM
  #24766  
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Yes i'm interested too.
Old 05-08-2013, 08:33 AM
  #24767  
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Actually, you can eliminate all the frustration by doing this,
10 minutes at 4,000 rpm at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle,
10 minutes at 5,000 rpm,
10 minutes at 6,000 rpm
10 minutes at 7,000 rpm

Shut down and refill tank,
Re-start, warm up, set HS needle at absolute peak,
Lean LS needle in 1/8th turn increments reducing throttle opening as engine idles faster from improved fuel mixture,
Check idle and transition after every other LS needle change, when you reach best idle and transition reduce peak rpm by 300 rpm rich. This will have taken up 40 to 50 minutes, go fly, your needle settings will change very little if at all from these settings.

The initial 10 minutes at 4,000 is for 10 minutes max, beyond that you are running the engine too slow and too cold to do any breaking in.
Using this regimen any Saito will hold compression like an ABC engine.
Aerofinn,

I've always had real good luck using Hobbsy' breakin procedure.
John
Old 05-08-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Ok Thanks SrTele

Btw I managed to install a Saito FA-91 carb spring into the FA-125a carb. Had to dremel / grind the carb barrel to make room for the spring, though!

Thanks for the hint again. The carb feels good when rotating the barrel but only experience will tell if the modification is worth the fuss. I'll report on the matter as soon as I have run the engine.

Artto
Old 05-08-2013, 12:19 PM
  #24769  
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Thanks John

I'll report how it went once I'v completed the running-in
Old 05-08-2013, 12:54 PM
  #24770  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Artto,

Did you install a new ring? If not, I would run the first tank like any normal engine on the bench for a few minutes and listen to how it runs. Let it get good and warmed up. Run it like you would when flying. I wouldn't worry about WOT runs unless you have a new ring that needs to wear in. You may have pointed this out earlier and I didn't see it.

I use castor in everything. There's no reason to not use it and plenty of reasons why you should.
Old 05-08-2013, 01:05 PM
  #24771  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

blw, you say there are plenty of reasons to use castor in Saitos, could you please tell me why.  I always try to follow manufacturers recommendations in all my engines only varying those specs when developing an engine for competition.
Here in OZ the Saito paperwork is very specific re oil type and quantity.  With the modern engines castor is specifically not recommended and its updates state that castor is ok but not recommended for the older engines specifically the 65 and 50 (both engines I use in sports and competition)  
Old 05-08-2013, 02:50 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I run 3 to 5% castor in my fuel mix just in case i have a lean run,it's paid off a few times and castor will form a protective coating over bearings etc in between running the engine.Synthetic won't do that very well.
Old 05-08-2013, 03:37 PM
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Old Fart, I have found that if any methanol / nitro mix is left in the crankcase and protection the castor is virtually non existant.  I used to run castor in the 50 and the 65 and had no problems except for glazing and sticky valves if the engine is left for a while.  With synthetic no problems, lean runs are of no real concern, in fact with engines going into storage we run the engines with a no nitro mix and lean run them to tank run out and then fill the crankcase with ATF.
Any way horses for courses and what suites is what you do.  I have just put forward some points on "supplied fuel" for O/Timers to the MAAA rules committee and the need for total synthetic mixes (as per OS and Saito data to hand) to accomodate the needs of the modern breed of engines from both these manufacturers.
BTB I am relocating to the SE corner of QLD next month.  Family reasons and the only good thing is that the "old firm" will be back in business big time and we are looking at pylon racing (Golden Era) the O/Timer events and Vintage A & B team race (control line).  Going to be interesting to see how these real big Saitos go once we breath on them a little.  I'll be flying at Calvert.  Article on the field in latest Airborne  (Gratton something, great field and great guys go there)
Old 05-08-2013, 03:48 PM
  #24774  
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ORIGINAL: tacx

Hi All,

I purchased a used FA-100. I'm having trouble with the idle and need to know what the factory position for the needle is.

In the manual for this size engine it calls for ''the face of the screw to be FLUSH with the throttle arm housing''.

I know there are two type of throttle arms. One metal (which I have on my 220) and plastic which I have on this 100.

I have a note in my manual, that I jotted down awhile ago, that the needle should be 1/16'' IN from the surface of the plastic throttle arm housing.

Can someone verify which starting position is correct.

At the present time my low needle is 1/16'' in from the plastic arm surface. The engine starts fine and has good high speed, but the idle flucuates.

In other words, once started each time I go from high speed to low the idle seems to change and will not stay constant.

At this point I have....

1. Checked the valve adjustment. It's good.

2. removed the high needle and cleaned it.

3. Replaced the fuel lines to make sure there was no obstructions.

So I now think I need to concentrate on the low needle adjustment.

Two questions...

1. Can the low needle be removed like the high needle so I can clean and check for debris.

2. What is the proper position for the low needle screw head in relation to the PLASTIC throttle arm.

Thanks

Tom

Anyone???
Old 05-08-2013, 04:27 PM
  #24775  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Just picked up another Saito today. Now I have a 72, 150S, 325R5, FG36 and now a 90 Twin. I do like Saito's.

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