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Old 05-18-2013, 04:01 PM
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On another note; I dis-assembled the engine to really get a good look at the inards and everything looked great.

I did find that with the crankshaft installed in the main case with it's front and main bearing it spun very freely. However, when the rear case with it's intermediate and rear bearing was mounted, the crank had some resistance and did not spin freely at all.

The intermediate bearing is open cage and spins freely alone. The crank feels bound up if it is installed in the rear case alone. If you look at the picture it seems very unlikely that the crank could be bent between these two bearings. The rear bearing is sealed and seems very stiff. I think I'll try to hydraulically pop it out with a dowel and some grease as it is a blind set and see if this may be the RPM robber!


Thanks, Hobbsy forr the link to C.Lee's review and the pic.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:19 PM
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You're welcome Frets. This engine, although completely different sounds just like Dan's video in the air although it turned quite a few more rpm, turning a 14x6 just under 10,000. That Joss Stik 90 flies as if on rails. I had to unbolt the cylinders to get the TurboHeaders on there. I later installed them using the TH adapters. If you look closely you can see the dual check valves for the Cline regulator.

Thanks to w8ye the 2nd picture with the TH adapters was easy to find.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:24 PM
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ORIGINAL: FNQFLYER
Last needle, we have Aussies competing successfully in the US but none of the Yanks who have come here have yet to conquer the Mountain. End of lecture.
Well, not quite the end. I remember when Australian drag racing relied on Americans in American funny cars. I only know of one Aussie NASCAR driver but he's not really a contender for any top 10 finishes. Nice guy though. He was running about middle of the pack recently before being taken out.
Old 05-18-2013, 05:52 PM
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Touche'.. FNQ??

ps i'll be back later with a large bag of chips and a box of good ole VB
Old 05-18-2013, 09:59 PM
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Not really, Old Fart, the guy running in NASCAR is actualy winning with a Toyota Camry.  Forgot his name, legend in his own mind, won one drivers champs here and went to the US.  We also have a young guy running in opened wheelers and winning as well.  Indy cars as well.
Name me one guy (Yank) who has conquered the Mount or in fact won on any circuit in OZ.  As for Drag racing, yes we bought their funny cars, but we now send the technology back to the US, so I'll sort of concede that one.  Re the Mount and elsewhere many other than Aussies have tried and failed (Europeans excepted) but we put up heaps of successful drivers internationally in WRC, open wheels, Sports cars and Saloons.
Now that Russian copy of the BMW motor bike was called a Ulan here in OZ (maybe after the billie gang).  It was a copy of the german army despatch riders bike with an outfit attached (similar to what the germans did also)
On the Royal Enfield copy, according to my mate once you get over the porous metal in the grearbox / crank case) and you sort out the outfit you can enjoy such upgrades as disc brakes and the chicken starter.  Finally these machines are at the low end of the EU spec range.   
Old 05-18-2013, 10:03 PM
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Frets, that variation in the free running of the crank could be because one or both of the rear bearings are slightly misaligned, that is not properly seated and are probably up to 1 degree out od alignment.  On the YS 63's we race that can mean about up to 300 rpms loss.  Not drastic for a sports engine but neverless not totally right.
Old 05-19-2013, 03:21 AM
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

This is one of my favorite clips of the FA200Ti in action.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBickqgN_fM[/youtube]

The FA-180 has a healthy appetite For glow fuel; improved a bit with conversion to CDI. How does the consumption of the FA-200Ti compare, wiith or without CDI, to the FA-180?

Thanks.

Richard/Club Saito #635/FA-100, 120abc, 130T, 180
Old 05-19-2013, 03:39 AM
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You're about 10 years behind the times on both the Ural and the Royal Enfield. The Ural is now equipped with Brembo brakes, Kehin carbs, Marzocchi forks, Nippon Denzo starter and electronics, stainless exhaust and optional stainless wheels. Stiffer crankshaft. And new owners who care. All good stuff. Same with the Royal Enfield, a new unitized construction engine/tranny, electric start, etc.
Old 05-19-2013, 04:11 AM
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ORIGINAL: spaceworm


ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

This is one of my favorite clips of the FA200Ti in action.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBickqgN_fM[/youtube]

The FA-180 has a healthy appetite For glow fuel; improved a bit with conversion to CDI. How does the consumption of the FA-200Ti compare, wiith or without CDI, to the FA-180?

Thanks.

Richard/Club Saito #635/FA-100, 120abc, 130T, 180
I've been waiting for a trigger magnet ring. Although the prop hub is the same diameter as an FA120.150/180. it is about 1/4" shorther. C&H recently converted an FA200Ti to CDI so they now have the proper magnet rings so I will soon be able to test.

I was hoping that the FA200Ti would compare favorably to the FA180 in power. It is actually rated @ 3 HP, a bit mire than the FA180, but alas, the RPM #s I am seeing are more along the lines of 2 HP.

My stock FA180 on GI spins the Dynathrust 18 x 8 @ 8000 on a good day. The RPM #s I'm seeing for the FA200Ti are around 8000 RPM W/a 16 X 8 propeller.

I'll soon find out W/my own tests.
Old 05-19-2013, 06:29 AM
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I have ordered a complete bearing set as the cost for four wasn't a whole lot more than for just the rear two. I'm thinking that the resistance in the rear case could easily rob me of 10% of performance as the resistance multiplies with increased rpm.

Once the bearings are replaced I'm going to run it with my scale exhausts and then with the stock exhaust stacks to see if that is also any factor.

The consumption works out to 10oz in @6 min at WOT; so just under the planning expectation of 1oz per cubic inch.
Old 05-19-2013, 07:12 AM
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ORIGINAL: frets24

I have ordered a complete bearing set as the cost for four wasn't a whole lot more than for just the rear two. I'm thinking that the resistance in the rear case could easily rob me of 10% of performance as the resistance multiplies with increased rpm.

Once the bearings are replaced I'm going to run it with my scale exhausts and then with the stock exhaust stacks to see if that is also any factor.

The consumption works out to 10oz in @6 min at WOT; so just under the planning expectation of 1oz per cubic inch.
Put CDI on that engine & fuel consumption will drop to 8oz @ 6 minutes & power output will increase by 5-6% W/about 400 RPM lower reliable idle speed.

It's a simple twin cylinder module set-up as the firing order is 360°.
Old 05-19-2013, 09:46 AM
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Seriously considering that, though I'm really getting into a critical wieght stage. If I can put all of the CDI gear and battery in the cowl it may be a good option.

I was under the impression that gassers yielded a lower output per Cu.In.? Also with the scale exhaust I'm not sure that the significantly higher EGT would bode well for the fiberglass fuselage at the stack outlets.
Old 05-19-2013, 10:40 AM
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ORIGINAL: frets24

Seriously considering that, though I'm really getting into a critical wieght stage. If I can put all of the CDI gear and battery in the cowl it may be a good option.

I was under the impression that gassers yielded a lower output per Cu.In.? Also with the scale exhaust I'm not sure that the significantly higher EGT would bode well for the fiberglass fuselage at the stack outlets.

You will save the weight of the CDI by the reduced fuel amount you need to carry. You can get the a bit more flight time of a 24oz tank on GI W/a 20oz tank on CDI. That will save you 4oz flying weight, more than a CDI system weighs. If you are going to carry OBG there won't be any difference in wieght as the maodule weighs just a few ozs & the battery pack will be needed anyway even if you go OBG.

20oz will give you 15 minutes flight time on CDI according to your test for GI & a 20% better fuel economy for CDI. 24oz of fuel load on GI will get you just under 14.5 minutes @ 10oz per 6 minutes.

I will weigh the twin cylinder module I bought for my FA200Ti & post it later.
Old 05-19-2013, 12:44 PM
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

ORIGINAL: frets24

Seriously considering that, though I'm really getting into a critical wieght stage. If I can put all of the CDI gear and battery in the cowl it may be a good option.

I was under the impression that gassers yielded a lower output per Cu.In.? Also with the scale exhaust I'm not sure that the significantly higher EGT would bode well for the fiberglass fuselage at the stack outlets.

You will save the weight of the CDI by the reduced fuel amount you need to carry. You can get the a bit more flight time of a 24oz tank on GI W/a 20oz tank on CDI. That will save you 4oz flying weight, more than a CDI system weighs. If you are going to carry OBG there won't be any difference in wieght as the maodule weighs just a few ozs & the battery pack will be needed anyway even if you go OBG.

20oz will give you 15 minutes flight time on CDI according to your test for GI & a 20% better fuel economy for CDI. 24oz of fuel load on GI will get you just under 14.5 minutes @ 10oz per 6 minutes.

I will weigh the twin cylinder module I bought for my FA200Ti & post it later.

I am confused what GI means. Are you talking about CD ignition using glow fuel, or gas fuel? OBG means onboard glow power, right?

Thanks
Old 05-19-2013, 12:58 PM
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ORIGINAL: FNQFLYER

Not really, Old Fart, the guy running in NASCAR is actualy winning with a Toyota Camry. Forgot his name, legend in his own mind, won one drivers champs here and went to the US. We also have a young guy running in opened wheelers and winning as well. Indy cars as well.
Name me one guy (Yank) who has conquered the Mount or in fact won on any circuit in OZ. As for Drag racing, yes we bought their funny cars, but we now send the technology back to the US, so I'll sort of concede that one. Re the Mount and elsewhere many other than Aussies have tried and failed (Europeans excepted) but we put up heaps of successful drivers internationally in WRC, open wheels, Sports cars and Saloons.
Now that Russian copy of the BMW motor bike was called a Ulan here in OZ (maybe after the billie gang). It was a copy of the german army despatch riders bike with an outfit attached (similar to what the germans did also)
On the Royal Enfield copy, according to my mate once you get over the porous metal in the grearbox / crank case) and you sort out the outfit you can enjoy such upgrades as disc brakes and the chicken starter. Finally these machines are at the low end of the EU spec range.
Marcos Ambrose. I was tuned in to racing later last night and there he was doing some charity for a little kid. Makes you like the guy no matter who he is.

You can't get into the nationality thing with racing or you will end up looking silly no matter where you are from, or what you are bragging about. I'm 60, so I remember when Europe ruled Formula racing for years. You can break that down to an Italian vs British fight. Then Ford came along with GTs and Cobras. Ditto for motorcycles all over the world. When I was old enough to get my first bike you got no respect unless you had a Kawasaki as they were blistering fast at the time. Those were the two stroke days. Racing is racing. That's all it is. Who cares if it is straight line, left turns, or if no Aussie has ever won Top Fuel or The Rock. Well....let me back up and admit that I don't consider the Rally format as real racing.....

Whew, good thing we didn't mention women racers!
Old 05-19-2013, 01:52 PM
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ORIGINAL: spaceworm


ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

ORIGINAL: frets24

Seriously considering that, though I'm really getting into a critical wieght stage. If I can put all of the CDI gear and battery in the cowl it may be a good option.

I was under the impression that gassers yielded a lower output per Cu.In.? Also with the scale exhaust I'm not sure that the significantly higher EGT would bode well for the fiberglass fuselage at the stack outlets.

You will save the weight of the CDI by the reduced fuel amount you need to carry. You can get the a bit more flight time of a 24oz tank on GI W/a 20oz tank on CDI. That will save you 4oz flying weight, more than a CDI system weighs. If you are going to carry OBG there won't be any difference in wieght as the maodule weighs just a few ozs & the battery pack will be needed anyway even if you go OBG.

20oz will give you 15 minutes flight time on CDI according to your test for GI & a 20% better fuel economy for CDI. 24oz of fuel load on GI will get you just under 14.5 minutes @ 10oz per 6 minutes.

I will weigh the twin cylinder module I bought for my FA200Ti & post it later.

I am confused what GI means. Are you talking about CD ignition using glow fuel, or gas fuel? OBG means onboard glow power, right?

Thanks
GI = Glow Ignition just as CDI = Capacitive Discharge Ignition
Old 05-19-2013, 02:54 PM
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Thank you Spaceworm for asking the question that I was going to ask and SrT150 for the clarification.

If we are talking glow fuel w/ spark ignition then the higher ExhaustGasTemp of gasoline is no longer a factor. I wasn't planning on OnBoardGlo as this twin seems to be as reliable as any single. The CDI GlowFuel Ignition is truely begining to pique my intrest.

Just curious as to why a spark ignition on glow fuel would yield more power than a full time energized glow plug? Also, why the consumption would be less? It seems that means one would be running a leaner mixture and that would mean hotter with less lube to my understanding. I am not trying to be controversial, but I am a glutton for information and SrT150 seems a reliable and knowledgeable source.

Or maybe I am completely confused here!![&:] (doesn't take much these days!)
Old 05-19-2013, 03:08 PM
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Back in the day(69)my favourite scary bike was an H1A triple with drum brakes though i had the 750 as well.I'm not arguing with anyone else that was brave enough to ride them
Old 05-19-2013, 03:59 PM
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Dan, I can see what you're saying about the gnition providing more accurate and consistent timing. So far I have not achieved that close enough for a gain. When I can afford Adrian's sensor mount and adjustable ring I can try different timings with ease. With my home made one I have to make a new one each time.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:21 PM
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I have a saito 82, golden knight mounted inverted in a Kyosho Flip.  The tank centerline is 1/2 to 3/4 an inch above the spraybar. NO pump, NO regulator, NO onboard glow. With well over 100 flights I've had 2 deadsticks, both in a row before I figured out that the pick-up line in the tank fell off the brass tubing. I always said I would never own an engine other than O.S but now, when it comes to 4-strokes at least, I don't think I want to own anything other that a SAITO!!!!  Did I mention it will idle at.....well, real slow(don't own a tach) through a tank of gas without ever loading up (too much). So slowly that people comment on it regularly. </p>
Old 05-19-2013, 04:31 PM
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You have your LS needle adjusted very well to have both a great idle and god economy. The LS needle is the secret to a great engine.
Old 05-19-2013, 04:41 PM
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ORIGINAL: frets24

Thank you Spaceworm for asking the question that I was going to ask and SrT150 for the clarification.

If we are talking glow fuel w/ spark ignition then the higher ExhaustGasTemp of gasoline is no longer a factor. I wasn't planning on OnBoardGlo as this twin seems to be as reliable as any single. The CDI GlowFuel Ignition is truely begining to pique my intrest.

Just curious as to why a spark ignition on glow fuel would yield more power than a full time energized glow plug? Also, why the consumption would be less? It seems that means one would be running a leaner mixture and that would mean hotter with less lube to my understanding. I am not trying to be controversial, but I am a glutton for information and SrT150 seems a reliable and knowledgeable source.

Or maybe I am completely confused here!![&:] (doesn't take much these days!)
The reason that CDI yields more power than GI is that CDI is a timed spark event. The engine can be tuned very precisely for maximum HP. W/GI your spark timing will vary W/the A/F mixture, nitro content, lube content, ambient temperature, barometric pressure, relative humudity or any atmosphereic condition. W/CDI the spark & therefore the ignition occurs @ precisley the same time every time. The spark curve can also be calibrated for the RPM range.

Yes the engine runs leaner W CDI because you are burning all of the A/F mixture & it can safely run leaner because the A/F mixture will not change the ignition timing as W/GI. Yes it runs a bit hotter, but not nearly as hot as the same engine burning gasoline. The methanol fuel cools the intake charge so the engine runs cooler.

As far as less lubrication due to the leaner running conditions?

Bear in mind that you no longer have a volitile ignition timing issue as W/GI. You will not need the added insurance of eccessive lubrication to keep the ignition timing in line or protect from lean conditions that play havoc W/GI. In fact, it is general concensis that lube content can be reduced to 10% or perhaps even slightly less when running CDI W/glow fuel.

I ran the equivelent of a 55 gallon drum or more of 15% Cool Power glow fuel through my FA150 that was run on CDI. After a crash, the engine was left in an unheated shed for 14 years W/fuel still in the tank. Aside from some corrossion (not as bad as some would have you believe given the lack of castor oil in the fuel) there was no abnormal wear on the engine when I tore it down to build my High compression stroker 180 on the 150 case. I could have cleaned it up, installed a new set of bearings & had a perfectly fine FA150. W/the exception of the smaller valves, I reused all of the valve train including the cam. The cam is perhaps the most wear prone part in a Saito engine due to poor oiling. If the lower volume of oil due to the leaner HSN settings where to have had any detrimental affects, it would have shown up on the cam.

Now a few words about the HSN settings W/CDI.

Common & probably the wisest method of setting the HSN on an engine W/GI is to peak the engine RPM & back off 200-300 RPM from peak. This is insurance that is well deserved because any change in atmospheric conditions can affect ignition timing & that can further upset the need for a specific A/F ratio. (mixture) Since we have removed that variable W/CDI we no longer need to "back off 200-300 RPM from peak. What you will find is that when you reach peak RPM W/CDI there will be a considerable range where the HSN no longer affects RPM. What you want to do is S-L-O-W-L-Y go as far as you can (leaning) until the engine faulters (goes lean) or you reach a point where the needle has been turned in several clicks (1/4 turn perhaps) W/O any change in peak RPM. Do this a few clicks @ a time allowing the engine to catch up W/each adjusment. When you have reached either condition, start backing up (richer) until the engine again faulters from being too rich, then lean it out a few ckicks until you just regain peak RPM. Now, you will be runing just on the rich side of your peak power A/F ratio.

Setting your LSN is similar to GI except you should be able to lean out the LSN W/O danger of kickback so you can proceed W/a little less apprehension as you lean out the LSN. Set your LSN as lean as it will go while still allowing smooth trasition. If the engine stumbles & then accelerates, it is too rich. When you reach the too lean LSN setting, the engine will stal when you open the throttle. Open up the LSN until you again achieve smooth transition W/O stumbling. Go back & briefly revisit your HSN settings after tweaking the LSN.

I got a chance to weigh my C&H twin module. It wieght 4oz on my dietary scale so the net weight gain will be nil if you go W/4 liquid oz less fuel load.

Here is a thread that will show yu step by stepm how to set up your C&H CDI system. since the FA200T1 is an even firingtwin, it will be identical as far as set-up.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1774802

Below is a picture of my brandy new C&H twin engine module. It is slated for my very own FA200t1.

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Old 05-19-2013, 05:13 PM
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dan, I can see what you're saying about the gnition providing more accurate and consistent timing. So far I have not achieved that close enough for a gain. When I can afford Adrian's sensor mount and adjustable ring I can try different timings with ease. With my home made one I have to make a new one each time.
Every engine I have converted got 200-300 RPM more @ peak. Some, like my FA150 responded @ 28° BTC W/150 more RPM, I expect it to yield more as W/E-85 in that engine there was a 300 RPM increase from 28° to 35° timing advance. That is when I accidentally discovered the power boost from aggressive timing advance settings, I fully expect the FA150 to gain @ least 300 RPM when the timing is advanced tom 35° BTDC. That should put it squarely in the range of what an FA180 will do W/GI.

My FA91S yielded nothing in power increase when I converted it W/the timomg @ 28° BTC.

Advancing the timing to 35° gained 200 RPM.

You must be willing to be aggressive W/the ingnition timing as well as the HSN settings.

As I pointed out in my previous post, there is no need to back off in RPM from the peak setting. Just go to the rich side of peak. There will be perhaps 1/4 turn or more @ peak HP where the HSN does not affect RPM. Just go to the rich side. of that range

If you tune properly it you should get a substantial increase in RPM.
Old 05-19-2013, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

As I posted in my previous post, here is a step by step how - to for setting up a Saito single or even firing twin. (FA60T, FA90TS, FA300T, FA100Ti, FA200T1)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1774802

Soon I will be exploring the world of 3 cylinder radials.

If any of you are not comfortable W/doing this yourself, I will set up & tune a Saito single or even firing twin W/a C&H (or similar set screw applied trigger magnet ring) CDI system for $25, you pay for the shipping to & from.

Singles & small twins will fit into a Priority Mail box so shipping will be minimal. You can have the ignition sent directly to me.
Old 05-19-2013, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

SrT150,

That was a great explanation. I could very quickly become a fan of CDI and glow fuel...sounds like you have become a true believer in it already.

Thanks for the link as well

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