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How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

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How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Old 10-03-2005, 05:57 PM
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sscherin
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Default How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

I'm getting back into the hobby after 15 years of off doing other things..

Lucky for me I never sold off my gear so I'm not starting out from scratch..

What I was wondering is how the my collection of 20+ year old motors stack up aginst todays engines..

Most of what I have are OS engines and 1 Saito 4 stroke.. From what I've been reading todays OS isn't what is used to be.

This is what I have.. Most were bought between 85 and 87..

OS FP .35 (Strap on muffler type)
OS FX .45 ABC Ringed piston (I know it's ringed I had to replace it once)
OS FS .40 4 stroke (always a great running motor)
OS FS .61 4 stroke (another good runner)
Saito .45 4 stroke (hmm say around 1987 or 88 I believe)
Supertigre .50 (Blue Head, I've never run it.. I got it used from a friend.. I have no clue how old it is)

My current plans are to run the FS .40 4 stroke or the FP .35 on the Eagle II we are building for my wife's son and the Saito .45 4 stroke on my Falcon III.

The Super Tigre .50 is on the nose of a 50's 2 channel Stearman PT-17 that was supposed to have a .35 on it..
Back in the 80's I'd converted it to 4 channel and took out all the dihedral.. It should be an evil flying plane if I ever get the guts to fly it. It's all finished and waiting in my Dad's attic back in Washington. I never got around to flying the silly thing.
Old 10-03-2005, 06:05 PM
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jlkonn
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

SS,
I've been out of the hobby for 15 to 20 years and just got flying again in August.
The ARF phenomena is what blows me away!
I came back with a UCD 60 and a Saito 100.
I had my doubts about the Saito.
When I was flying hot and heavy in the mid 80's turnaround pattern came into being. I flew a Hanson Dalotel and Enya 120. Both the original and the R120. I still have the R and a brand new in the box standard 120. I can not say enough bad about those engines. The Saito is a completley different animal. Very reliable. More power than the old Enya's ever had.
I am thinking about trying to ease back in to pattern...at least the style of flying.
Good luck!
JLK
Old 10-03-2005, 09:02 PM
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w8ye
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

At the flying field, most people, I doubt will notice your old engines.

The blue head is more like from the mid 70's

Where I fly there are old engines that show up all the time like the old ST 60's prior to the blue heads and Saito 45's and 50's. The saito is a old model 45 with the air bleed carb. They made a twin needle one later on.

Enjoy,

Jim
Old 10-03-2005, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Some 4 stroke engine can be more heavier and bigger than a modern 4 stroke engine in same size.

To example my Webra T-4 weights 2.42 lb, 1.1 hp (1980) while SC FS91AR (same as Magnum FS91) weights 1.41 lb, 1.5 hp (2005).

Modern engines are more power and lighter than older engines.

Jens Eirik

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Old 10-04-2005, 12:19 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Ssherin,



The biggest difference is in the four-strokes.

You will find the four-stroke engines that you have are significantly less powerful and less reliable, compared to current models of the same companies. Also, the exposed valve-trains are more susceptible to damage than current, enclosed setups.


More current engines have an ABN piston/sleeve set, which is more environmentally friendly (read: less costly to treat the waste) than ABC, but isn't as durable.

This 'illness' even affects a current, ring-less four-stroke...

Current engines are generally quieter, with their mufflers, than older ones.


OS FX .45 ABC Ringed piston (I know it's ringed I had to replace it once)
The FX series is from 1995... Check the [link=http://www.osengines.com/history/ostimeline16.html]OS timeline[/link] and If I am not wrong, there were never a .45, nor ringed versions. Those .45s were last FSRs and only the .91 and 1.60FX have a ringed piston.


If you still have your old R/C gear, make sure it has gold-label, 20 kHz separation (the receiver too) and replace all airborne and Tx Ni-Cd packs, before you even think of flying.
Old 10-04-2005, 01:07 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

You are in great condition with the engines you own. Why? Because you bought good engines
to begin with.

This is the second reference I have seen to a Bluehead ST .50. I've been in and out of the hobby
over the years, so there are periods of engines that I know nothing about.

I had/have a Bluehead G60 and I used to own an ST S40 with a bluehead, but I've never heard of
a Bluehead .50 by ST. Could you post a picture of this for me? I would really appreciate it.

Watch running too much nitro in those older engines. The new engines, just about all of them, can tolerate
10 to 15% nitro in the hot summer heat without a problem. The older ST engines could not.

Ed Cregger





ORIGINAL: sscherin

I'm getting back into the hobby after 15 years of off doing other things..

Lucky for me I never sold off my gear so I'm not starting out from scratch..

What I was wondering is how the my collection of 20+ year old motors stack up aginst todays engines..

Most of what I have are OS engines and 1 Saito 4 stroke.. From what I've been reading todays OS isn't what is used to be.

This is what I have.. Most were bought between 85 and 87..

OS FP .35 (Strap on muffler type)
OS FX .45 ABC Ringed piston (I know it's ringed I had to replace it once)
OS FS .40 4 stroke (always a great running motor)
OS FS .61 4 stroke (another good runner)
Saito .45 4 stroke (hmm say around 1987 or 88 I believe)
Supertigre .50 (Blue Head, I've never run it.. I got it used from a friend.. I have no clue how old it is)

My current plans are to run the FS .40 4 stroke or the FP .35 on the Eagle II we are building for my wife's son and the Saito .45 4 stroke on my Falcon III.

The Super Tigre .50 is on the nose of a 50's 2 channel Stearman PT-17 that was supposed to have a .35 on it..
Back in the 80's I'd converted it to 4 channel and took out all the dihedral.. It should be an evil flying plane if I ever get the guts to fly it. It's all finished and waiting in my Dad's attic back in Washington. I never got around to flying the silly thing.
Old 10-04-2005, 05:08 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

I'm another one who was out of the hobby for a while and got back into it. In the past year I've used my 1980s vintage OS .25 FSR, .25F ABC and Saito FA-45 (probably the same model you have). I also picked up an OS .32 FSR that's on a plane that I fly nearly every time I go to the field. All are just as reliable now as they were then, and are more reliable than many of the newer engines I see at the field. I say check each one out and fly them.
Old 10-04-2005, 05:15 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon

The biggest difference is in the four-strokes.

You will find the four-stroke engines that you have are significantly less powerful and less reliable, compared to current models of the same companies. Also, the exposed valve-trains are more susceptible to damage than current, enclosed setups.
Dar, the 1980s wasn't that long ago. I know OS made some exposed rocker 4 strokes in the 80s, but they also had valve covers on many (most) of their models. I do agree that the new 4 strokes have way more power, but I've found that my old Saito (which has valve covers) is every bit as reliable as the new ones.
Old 10-04-2005, 06:15 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Chuck,


You are probably right about this, but somehow my mindset was on the exposed rocker models.
Some Enya four-stroke engines were like that too, I believe.

Changing the glow-plug to a four-stroke type, in those older engines, can vastly improve their reliability.
Old 10-04-2005, 06:25 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon

Chuck,


You are probably right about this, but somehow my mindset was on the exposed rocker models.
Some Enya four-stroke engines were like that too, I believe.

Changing the glow-plug to a four-stroke type, in those older engines, can vastly improve their reliability.
Yup, when I got my Saito out of the box it had been stored in for 15+ years, an OS F plug went in it.
Old 10-04-2005, 07:47 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

OS still makes the FS40 and its still the same. They don't sell the FS61 in the USA anymore but I see pictures of them in other countries and they look like the FS40.

Enjoy,

Jim
Old 10-04-2005, 09:33 AM
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sscherin
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Wow that OS timeline is great!
I had a few of my engines wrong.

You were right.. the .45 is an FSR ABC..

It's the 1980 Model

Click for Larger Image

The .35 is much older than I suspected..

1964 S35RC although ours has the remote needle valve kit they releaed in the late 80's.



The .61 is the 1983 Model FS-61



The .40 is the 1986 FS-40S




I'll try and get some pic sof the ST .50 but it's back in Washington so it could be awhile.

The Saito is an FA-45.. I'll have pics of that tonight.
Old 10-04-2005, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

The old OS FS40 and new OS FS40 are inside parts same, but not camscaft and bolt for rocker arm. Outside of the engine are difference design.

Dar Zeelon: and less reliable
Dar..
The old 4 stroke engine are reliable with modern glowplug, but the major problem glowplug for 4 stroke was not allways available in first period.. you know why we had extra battery + microswitch to keep warm in idling.

Jens Eirik
Old 10-04-2005, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Jens,

Original: Jens Eirik

Dar..
The old 4 stroke engine are reliable with modern glowplug, but the major problem glowplug for 4 stroke was not always available in first period.
I wrote exactly that, in my post #9...


Besides, I don't think even the Surpass and the Surpass II engines can exchange all their parts, with one another.

The pre-Surpass, probably even less, although some sizes may share bore and stroke specifications.

Even bearings are of different sizes (Old .40FS and Surpass II are the same, but the Surpass has a different size front bearing.).

Also, see the OS time-line; some engines had the camshaft in the front and others in the rear. I am sure that you don't think they can all interchange parts with current all-front-cam series engines.

The newer carburettors (I have my doubts about the FL's) work better too.
Old 10-04-2005, 01:08 PM
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DarZeelon
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Sscherin,


Correction:

OS does have a ringed piston .46 and it is the .46FX-H.

There is also an OS engine with a true chromium ABC piston and sleeve. It is the .46VX-DF.
The bigger .91VR-DF, on the other hand, is just another ABN engine, although it is labeled ABC (Haven't we seen this before?).
Old 10-04-2005, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

The main reason that the modern engines are, on the average, much better than the older ones is that now CAD is pretty predominant which lets even the newer start up units make as precise a part as the old established concerns with the skilled craftsmen could. Engine quality is much more consistant now and even the least expensive ones compare favorably with the old established companies. Of course there has been minor but consistant improvement in materials and techniques but that is available to all. In general, the newer engines are quite superior to the older ones.
Old 10-04-2005, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?


ORIGINAL: DarZeelon


Even bearings are of different sizes (Old .40FS and Surpass II are the same, but the Surpass has a different size front bearing.).
Dar..

I has both engines and there is not difference sizes in both bearings front and back.
In old OS FS are the cam gearwheel thicker and the valve lifter are more away from each other than the new FS40. Also the old camshaft can not go in the new crankcase cause thick gearwheel and will hit lifter if installed. The new cam shaft can go in the old crankcase and it is same length in both old and new crankcase.

But there are a bit difference horsepower, in older FS40 are 0.5 hp while the new FS40 are 0.6 hp, i think it is a difference timing or compression ratio in old and new. Carburator are same in both old and new.

Jens Eirik
Old 10-04-2005, 02:07 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

The older ST's that I have run seem to appreciate a reasonable percentage of castor oil. May not be true for all, but my observation was that the .35 in particular runs noticably better on say 50/50 syn/cas than on lower amounts of castor. It's not a high time engine either.

Mike D.
Old 10-04-2005, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?


ORIGINAL: Motorboy

Dar..

I has both engines and there is not difference sizes in both bearings front and back.Jens Eirik
Jens,


I was talking about three engines: The old .40FS, the Surpass and the Surpass II.

The first and the last have a 9x17x5 mm front bearing, while the Surpass has an 8x19x6 mm front bearing.
The crankshaft is obviously also different.

I don't have any of these engines, so my observation is based only on catalogs. I could be mistaken.

The rear bearing is the same for all for sure.

Old 10-04-2005, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

You mean CNC, I think.
Old 10-04-2005, 04:00 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon

The bigger .91VR-DF, on the other hand, is just another ABN engine, although it is labeled ABC (Haven't we seen this before?).
Sorry, no. the O.S. Max .91 VR-DF is true ABC construction.

http://www.osengines.com/engines/ductedfan.html

Old 10-04-2005, 06:15 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

Sorry, Bax.


From the Tower web site, here is the [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBZ02&P=RF]link for the engine[/link].

...And the [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCJ65&P=Z]link for the piston/cylinder set[/link].

See the tech dept notes: "The plating is actually Nickle but is still being labeled ABC not ABN.".

If they are wrong, I will stand corrected, but from the appearance of the sleeve, I don't think they (or I) are.

Just for appearance, here is the [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCJ46&P=Z]link for the same, for the VX-DF engine[/link].
Old 10-04-2005, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
If they are wrong, I will stand corrected, but from the appearance of the sleeve, I don't think they (or I) are.
I don't know who is right or wrong, but this would not be the first time Tower has messed up on OS engine info. For example, try to find the O.S. .21 RG-M or O.S. .21 RG-MX marine engines engines by going through the Engine and Accessories page here: http://www.towerhobbies.com/listings/cat-cat-g.html . Don't cheat and search, try to find them through the engine links.

Bax, if you're reading, I've notified Tower about this issue a couple times but they don't seem to care. Perhaps they'll listen to you.
Old 10-04-2005, 09:25 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

sscherin, I'm also returning to R/C after having been away since 1992. Most of my engines are at least that old:

SF-40 ABC
FS-40S (see pic)
FP-15, 20 and 35

I have the 40 Surpass on the stand after taking it apart and cleaning it good. The Marvel Mystery Oil had it pretty well seized up. I plan to run it this week for the first time in 13yrs. I'm sure it's fine. The OS forum rep - Bax - told the engine is unchanged. All current parts will fit it.

I used to rely on the OS name. I felt if I bought one I'd be ok. But reading this forum makes me wonder. The Taiwanese/Chinese and Eastern European engines seem to get much praise here.

jlkonn, I, too, am amazed at the current ARF trend. Fewer and fewer buider's kits on the market. I scratchbuild from plans, so as long as plans and balsa are available I don't worry. The designing/modeling aspect was once central to the hobby, just think of all those magazines: MODEL Builder, Flying MODELS, R/C MODELER, MODEL Aviation, American MODELER, MODEL Airplane News. Sorry, I'll step down.

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Old 10-04-2005, 09:51 PM
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Default RE: How to todays Engines compare to 20 years ago?

sscherin,
Similar to you, I decided to return to the hobby after a 18 year break. I also thought that I would use all my old engines (OS90FS, Enya60X, OS40FSR, Enya 40TV, Enya 45, Enya 35, Enya 19X, TT 15, Taipan 1.5) as a means to keep the costs down and just to rekindle the relationships with these marvelous old engines. I went as far as to think that I would build a few of the old kits I had. Well, the first thing I discovered is that the cost of modeling has not kept up with inflation, it's so much cheaper (relatively speaking) than it was 18 years ago. Also, 18 years ago I was a high school kid earning my money part-time and now it's just that much easier to buy new stuff. The progress in ARF is fantastic for those of us with less time than enthusiasm. The new brood of radios just blow you away when you look at reliability and features for such a low price. Some of the brands of new engines may not appear that cheap but the progress made by other brands (Thunder Tiger, Magnum etc.) has really brought their quality to a good standard - and they're relatively cheap. Now I've sold most of the old engines at good prices, bought a heap of new stuff and now I enjoy this hobby more than I ever did. If you're going to use your old radio gear I'd suggest that you replace all the nicads and have the system serviced and certified. Recommissioning your old engines will be a lot of fun and don't forget to buy fuel with Castor oil in it, the older engines will be happy and you'll love the smell.
Glad to see another past R/Cer pick up from where they let go. Hope you get a real kick out modern R/C.
Cheers RTD

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