Notices
Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

ST2300 Testing and Experimenting

Old 01-28-2006, 05:16 PM
  #1  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default ST2300 Testing and Experimenting

Today was my second day of flying the 2300. I am running a MA 18-8, turning up at 7700. I was successful in adjusting the carb to get satisfactory performance without any pumps or regulators. I then switched to an 18-6 prop, which turned over 9000 and really sounded nice. I had three flights and three dead stick landings. I would be at about 1/2 throttle and the engine would just die. One time it happened in level flight, and I was able to cut the throttle and get it going again, for a little while. I had really good smoke trail and never ran lean. I put the 18-8 back on and tweaked the needles again, just a little, and had three more flights without a hitch. I would say that had I only bought an 18-6 prop, I would think this engine is junk, but it runs really good on the 18-8. I'm burning 10% powermaster and using an F plug. I had another engine do this very thing. That was an ASP 1.08. I gave up on that engine after too many dead sticks. Anybody have any ideas as to why a lighter prop load would cause flameouts? I am baffled.[]
Old 01-28-2006, 05:38 PM
  #2  
Flyer95
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: STOCKHOLM Akersberga, SWEDEN
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Maybe the muffler is restricting the engine at those higher rpms?

Also two more things to try would be too remove the headgasket to raise the compression with the lighter load and also lean the idle needle slightly maybe about 1/16 of a turn and try again. Good luck
Old 01-28-2006, 05:52 PM
  #3  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I did pinch the exhaust nozzles closed to gain muffler pressure. Not closed, but restricted to match what the stock muffler has for backpressure. What I would like to know is what is the test for achieving the optimum back pressure? What I would do is adjust the back pressure to the point that I could still get the high needle to go full rich at full throttle. Hopefully, it would still draw well at lower rpms. Openning up the exhaust would yield more power. More power is always nice to have.
Old 01-28-2006, 06:11 PM
  #4  
carrellh
Senior Member
 
carrellh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 6,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

In the tech notes on the Tower site they mention back pressure when using non-stock mufflers
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFV80&P=0
You could put a tee fitting in the exhaust pressure line and hook up a pressure gauge to measure
Old 01-28-2006, 06:23 PM
  #5  
Flyer95
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: STOCKHOLM Akersberga, SWEDEN
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I dont think pinching the exhaust nozzles is the best way for feeding an twostroke engine. Twostroke engines needs to breathe and restricting the muffler would cause overheating and loss of power. However some engines seems to handle more backpressure than others which is good for fueldraw but on all engines the needle settings becomes more narrow, only very very small increments are needed.

Your tachometer readings are good so your muffler is probably fine. Maybe only some low end needle adjustments are needed?
Old 01-28-2006, 06:42 PM
  #6  
buzzingb
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bruce, MS
Posts: 1,516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Not24, this engine is known for this kind of behavior, that is the reason it is so cheap. I have been working with a 2300 for a year now and just recently have I gotten it halfway running. It is a power house though, at a cheap price. I find my 2300 runs best with a 17X6 apc and I have even thought of going down to a 17x4 so the engine can revup quickly. The 18X8 is propping your rpms too low even though you may have achieved better results, you aren't in the power band. My engine seemed over propped with the 18X6. I have tried ever trick in the book to get this engine running and the only thing that gave a noticeable improvemant was a home made on board glow to keep the glow plug lit in the midrange rich condition this engine has. I am running an OS #8 plug. Some people use the F plug. Like you I peened the ends of the bisson to give back pressure. Recently due to a deadstick and rought landing I lost one of the stacks and I used JB Weld and a piece of can to close that hole up. Now I only have one stack. Still runs just as well. After I play with this thing some more I may try one of the Jett carbs. I am looking for 3D type performance and I don't know if I will ever achieve this with this engine. Give me a PM if you have questions.
Old 01-28-2006, 07:56 PM
  #7  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I'd like to add that the high needle seems to be not so sensitive, while the low end needle is very sensitive.

The easiest way to match the bisson muffler to the stock one would be to open one tube fully, and plug the other completely. To save time, I compromised both tubes to a point that somewhat equals one open tube. I may be off a little bit, but I won't know till I try some test runs with different settings. I may hack the corner off the fuse and go with the stock muffler to test different props. That will remove the muffler pressure from the equation.
Old 01-28-2006, 08:23 PM
  #8  
turbo.gst
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 764
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I like APC 17 x 8 or 17 x 8n on mine. The spool up is very good. I like the Pro Zinger prop for power, but the spool up is slower. I guess it depends on your application.

turbo
Old 01-28-2006, 10:02 PM
  #9  
NM2K
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ringgold, GA
Posts: 11,488
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop


ORIGINAL: turbo.gst

I like APC 17 x 8 or 17 x 8n on mine. The spool up is very good. I like the Pro Zinger prop for power, but the spool up is slower. I guess it depends on your application.

turbo

-------------


Most of you fellows should look up the old pattern oriented G2300 articles of some years ago. You could learn a lot about the G2300.

The G2300 is not a high revving engine design. It certainly is not a 3D engine. It simply isn't ported for that kind of throttle response.

The pattern folks determined that the 18x8 was perfect for their version of pattern flying. Revving the engine any higher did not yield good results in terms of thrust generated.

In order to obtain a really crisp throttle response from this engine, it will need to be fitted with an accelerator pump, or a much smaller cfm carburetor. A 17x8 is not too small of a prop, but it is moving away from the 18x8 optimum prop.

Engines that quit after being tuned successfully on the ground have a fuel system issue, not a prop issue. The 18x6 diameter/pitch is not causing the problem. But its balance and or sympathetic resonance of the airframe may be causing fuel foaming problems. Remember, you cannot see fuel foaming problems with the model sitting on the ground. It must be checked for foaming with the model being held off of the ground by its wing tips. Even then, visually spotting fuel foaming can be tough, however the engine will let you know that something is amiss without your having to actually see foamed fuel in the fuel line.

Now, I am sure that everyone is experienced enough to be doing a fine job of static balancing their props, so I'm not insinuating that anyone is falling down on the job in this regard. However, dynamic balancing is another thing altogether. One thing that can make a difference is to true up the prop hub so that the blades of the prop track properly. How many of you do this? I don't either, but I do check for blade tracking on problematic props and then replace the prop if it is too far out. That often makes the difference.

There is nothing "wrong" with the G2300. It is now a housebrand engine and the Chinese manufacturing savings is being passed along to the consumer. It helps Tower gain consumer loyalty. It worked for me. I now own more ST engines than I have ever owned. Don't let the low price fool you into thinking that it is inferior. It is not. However, it is dated and is not the ideal choice for 3D flying in its stock form. Most two-stroke glow engines fall into the same category. If you really want to make this engine perform, spend the bucks on the Jett made parts for this engine.
Old 01-28-2006, 10:44 PM
  #10  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I would like to comment on Mr Cregger's remarks. I think he is right about this engine not being designed for the higher rpm's and crisp throttle response that is necessary for 3D. Although I have this engine on a F90, I like it fine flying as a sport plane, with the throttle stick basically left alone at around 1/2 stick. I knew before I bought this engine that it had these types of issues, so I am not disappointed at all. The plane flies about the same with either the 18-8 or the 18-6, but it pulls more like a four stroke with the higher pitch. I'm still in the break in process, so there is room for improvement. If the engine never runs any better than it does right now, I will be satisfied. However, I think I can get it better without too much trouble. I think I'll try my VP 30 pump on it anyway, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Who knows, maybe we can all learn something from this.
Old 01-28-2006, 11:06 PM
  #11  
cyclops2
 
cyclops2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Frenchtown, NJ
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Post # 7 states a touchy low speed adjment. Usually low carburator vacumm and or blunt needle tips. Your choice.------All needles MUST have a tight pressure on the threads to prevent movement.

I usually regrind most needles to sharp long points on a VERY smooth wheel.
Old 01-29-2006, 03:58 AM
  #12  
Kweasel
My Feedback: (29)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: fort worth, TX
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Lightening the load on a model engine, without changing anything else will make the mixture richer. Any time you change the load you must re-tune the carb. If the engine was smoking a lot at half throttle and died, then its probably too rich. Some engine and glow plug combinations will never fourcycle, they just stop running. Often an idle bar plug will allow an engine to run very rich and fourcycle without stopping. A K&B idle bar plug will be more forgiving of overly rich mixtures while tuning your carb. Once its correct it won't matter what you use.
Old 01-29-2006, 09:34 AM
  #13  
Cyclic Hardover
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Cyclic Hardover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Mexico,
Posts: 7,296
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I am not going to contradict Eds comments but I run this thing inverted on a 60 size P-51 with a Jett Pipe on it and 14/14 apc screaming the )(*&^ out of it for a year now and no problems. I think a large part of it is "proper adjustment". I cannot tell you how many people I run into on a regular basis who think they have their engine dialed in when it is still way off.

Revving up the engine after each adjustment, does not tell you everything.
Old 01-29-2006, 09:59 AM
  #14  
buzzingb
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bruce, MS
Posts: 1,516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Very interesting! One thing to consider is that the older version of this engine is different from the new one and some information on the net is for the old version. The pattern flyiers also use a tuned pipe on the 2300 thus allowing them to run a slightly larger prop. If you don't run a tuned pipe, you don't need the 18X8. Although the 2300 will spin the 18X8 it will be slow to revup and may even add to the mid-range problems with the extra loading. If you want to peen the end of the Bisson pitts muffler you can easily make a clamp out of wood and use a vise to clamp the muffler and hammer the ends to reduce the size of the exhaust openin. Done this way the muffler looks stock except for the opening being smaller. It will give more back pressure and you will see little or no reduction in power. One thing do with this and other engines is to remove the backplante and flush out the particles left in there from the factory. I did this and removed a considerable amount of stuff.
Old 01-29-2006, 10:42 AM
  #15  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I have read every post on this engine I could find for 3 months before buying one. I had not read anything about changing props causing flameouts. I was surprised that i picked up 1300 rpm by changing 2" in pitch. I would have guessed about half of that.

I did open the engine before running it, and found nothing wrong, including burs in the carb. I have considered all the possibilities that you have mentioned as being the culprit. I just find it very strange that one prop works so well, and a slightly different one is a disaster. Of course the engine was re-tuned for each prop. The low end should not need adjustment because there is no difference in load at low rpm's. The high end will need adjustment with different props, and that's what I did.
Old 01-29-2006, 12:46 PM
  #16  
Flyer95
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: STOCKHOLM Akersberga, SWEDEN
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

There is an overall higher load with the bigger pitch prop and the engine needs more fuel/rev. to handle the higher load. When you are lowering the load by using the 18x6 instead of the 18x8 the engine needs less fuel/rev. from idle to full throttle. So both needles needs adjustments.
Old 01-29-2006, 02:07 PM
  #17  
buzzingb
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bruce, MS
Posts: 1,516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

I don't think that the particles left in the engine would cause the engine to quit but merely reduce the life of the engine. I flushed my engine with fuel and collected the fuel in a bottle. After the fuel settled for a while I was amazed at the amount of particles I flushed out of the engine. I have heard reports that other engines will have machining particles also. It is my belief that the problems related to this engien stem from the carb as others have reported. A pump will not solve this problem.
Old 01-29-2006, 02:58 PM
  #18  
Cyclic Hardover
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
Cyclic Hardover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Mexico,
Posts: 7,296
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Exactly! It may mask it for a while but whatever is causing the problem is still their. Why is it many people think a pump will cure it all?


ORIGINAL: buzzingb

I. A pump will not solve this problem.
Old 01-29-2006, 04:07 PM
  #19  
carrellh
Senior Member
 
carrellh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Garland, TX
Posts: 6,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

ORIGINAL: Not24
Of course the engine was re-tuned for each prop. The low end should not need adjustment because there is no difference in load at low rpm's. The high end will need adjustment with different props, and that's what I did.
The low and high end needles are related, so I wouldn't totally dismiss the idea that the low end might need a slight adjustment. It is easy to do and costs nothing. If it doesn't help, at least you've eliminated another possibility.
Old 01-29-2006, 05:24 PM
  #20  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

ORIGINAL: carrellh

ORIGINAL: Not24
Of course the engine was re-tuned for each prop. The low end should not need adjustment because there is no difference in load at low rpm's. The high end will need adjustment with different props, and that's what I did.
The low and high end needles are related, so I wouldn't totally dismiss the idea that the low end might need a slight adjustment. It is easy to do and costs nothing. If it doesn't help, at least you've eliminated another possibility.
Come on people! Of course the two needles are related, and adjusting one means the other will need a little bit to be perfect. HOWEVER, when an engine runs on one prop and quits on another, just one size smaller, there is something else wrong besides a tweak on a needle valve. If that were the case, all engines would quit unless you got both needles exactly right. There is a range of adjustment where the engine should stay running, and either be rich or lean. If a needle is so sensitive as to need to be exactly perfect, then there is a problem somewhere else. It could be back pressure, fuel pressure, nitro content/compression ratio, etc. You see my point? In my opinion, backpressure on a two stroke is bad for performance. This engine requires fuel pressure to feed the carb properly. It is my theory that these two factors are in conflict with each other. In order to remove the back pressure, I will need to find another way to create fuel pressure. The pump will do that. Going to an open unrestricted muffler will keep from choking the engine, and pumping the fuel to the needle will give constant pressure in all conditions. Call me stupid, but I think it will work.
Old 01-29-2006, 08:05 PM
  #21  
NM2K
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ringgold, GA
Posts: 11,488
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop


ORIGINAL: buzzingb

Very interesting! One thing to consider is that the older version of this engine is different from the new one and some information on the net is for the old version. The pattern flyiers also use a tuned pipe on the 2300 thus allowing them to run a slightly larger prop. If you don't run a tuned pipe, you don't need the 18X8. Although the 2300 will spin the 18X8 it will be slow to revup and may even add to the mid-range problems with the extra loading. If you want to peen the end of the Bisson pitts muffler you can easily make a clamp out of wood and use a vise to clamp the muffler and hammer the ends to reduce the size of the exhaust openin. Done this way the muffler looks stock except for the opening being smaller. It will give more back pressure and you will see little or no reduction in power. One thing do with this and other engines is to remove the backplante and flush out the particles left in there from the factory. I did this and removed a considerable amount of stuff.

----------------


Other than the groove configuration in the throttle barrel, how is the old G2300 different from the new version?

At the time the G2300 was popular in pattern, the effort was to move away from tuned pipes because of their peakiness and to run mufflers. Most of the data I have seen collected in this regard utilized mufflers, not pipes.

If you richen the high speed or low speed needle, you richen the midrange too. As I explained in a previous post, utilizing too much nitro in a two-stroke glow engine will cause you to overly richen the high speed needle in an effort to retard the timing, which then can lead to a rich midrange. Reducing nitro to 5% or less puts the carb back into calibration.




Old 01-29-2006, 10:11 PM
  #22  
Not24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Not24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Does anybody think the 10% fuel could be causing detonation with the lighter loaded prop? It is my first guess, but I have no 5% fuel to test my theory. I have read that people are happy with 0% all the way up to 20%, depending on who you talk to. This has got to be the most controversial engine ever built!

As I re read some of these posts, it seems as if it is assumed that the engine is running rich in the midrange. I'm not so sure that has ever been established. Again, on a new engine, I should be able to run it good and rich in flight till I'm sure it's good and broken in without it quitting. I'm more inclined to believe that I have my exhaust a little too restricted for proper breathing. Perhaps I will play with the muffler(s) a little before tapping the backplate for the pump.
Old 01-29-2006, 10:25 PM
  #23  
buzzingb
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Bruce, MS
Posts: 1,516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

It sound like you know more than I do about 2300s. After you get this thing perfected let us know how it comes out.
Old 01-30-2006, 02:41 AM
  #24  
NM2K
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ringgold, GA
Posts: 11,488
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop


ORIGINAL: Not24

Does anybody think the 10% fuel could be causing detonation with the lighter loaded prop? It is my first guess, but I have no 5% fuel to test my theory. I have read that people are happy with 0% all the way up to 20%, depending on who you talk to. This has got to be the most controversial engine ever built!

As I re read some of these posts, it seems as if it is assumed that the engine is running rich in the midrange. I'm not so sure that has ever been established. Again, on a new engine, I should be able to run it good and rich in flight till I'm sure it's good and broken in without it quitting. I'm more inclined to believe that I have my exhaust a little too restricted for proper breathing. Perhaps I will play with the muffler(s) a little before tapping the backplate for the pump.

----------------------


I do believe in serendipity. However, most of the time when serendipity enters my life, it is of a negative nature. Kind of like when an engine quits for no apparent reason.

I have had this happen to me several times over the years. The engine quit once, causing a deadstick, then, just for kicks, after remembering the sound of the engine when it quit and ascertaining that it was not lean prior to quitting, I would fire it back up again, with needles untouched and continue to fly the rest of the day without incidence. It happens. It has happened to me several times over the decades. Why? Hellifino...

This is not to say that there wasn't a real reason for the engine to quit. I'm not much into magic, so I don't think that was it. Whatever the problem is, I hope you get back to us with the solution. I'm still leaning toward fuel foaming with the suspect prop.
Old 01-30-2006, 08:19 AM
  #25  
Flyer95
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: STOCKHOLM Akersberga, SWEDEN
Posts: 1,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: My 2300 only likes one prop

Not 24,
Did you say you had a OS108 FSR??, if so just take that OS7D carburetor and put it on your G2300 for some tests.
Then you know if your fuel, plug, muffler, compression............ is good or not.

If your engine runs bad on that carb. then you know something else is wrong.


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.