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K&B .65 Sportster

Old 12-02-2007, 08:26 AM
  #26  
NM2K
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

I was flying a Florio Stunt Wagon back when folks first began to seriously fly competition fun flies. It was powered by an OS .32F-H swinging an 11x4 Rev-Up wood prop at nearly 12K rpm. Later, just for kicks, I swapped in the K&B .28 Sportster. Just as expected, it flew the Stunt Wagon, but was severely much less power than that generated by the OS .32F-H. Fortunately, the mounting bolt and crankcase width were identical, so back to the OS I went. Still, it did fly the model in normal fashion. The Webra .32 engines in my area were a bit stronger than the OS if you went with a toothpick prop, but the OS clobbered them when running the 11x4 wood Rev-Up props.

I had two K&B .28 Sportsters at the time and neither would run reliably with a prop other than the 9x4 MAS prop. Even a Graupner 10x4 nylon was too much of a load. They would overheat and quit in flight, but they did scream when running the 9x4 and were as reliable as an anvil.

I didn't convert mine to Diesel operation because neither had a bushing equipped crankcase. I couldn't see spending as much money on a conversion head, or more, than the engine cost me originally ($43). If I had the bushing equipped engines, I would have bought the conversion head in a heartbeat.

I did Dieselize the OS.32F-H. It ran well, but I couldn't put up with the stink and the power/throttling wasn't as good as when running on glow.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-02-2007, 09:45 AM
  #27  
bigdaddy
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Fine aluminum particles released during break-in process kills the plug element. See D.B. Mathews comments in 5/2000 Flying for Fun pg 79 5/2000 issue of Model Aviation.
He suggests breaking in the engine with the plug removed, lots of oil, and turning the engine at 1,000rpm for 30 minutes via a lathe. Cheers bigdaddy
Old 12-02-2007, 09:55 AM
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

A good reason to take out the break in plug once you think you are past the initial process.
Old 12-02-2007, 01:52 PM
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NM2K
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster


ORIGINAL: bigdaddy

Fine aluminum particles released during break-in process kills the plug element. See D.B. Mathews comments in 5/2000 Flying for Fun pg 79 5/2000 issue of Model Aviation.
He suggests breaking in the engine with the plug removed, lots of oil, and turning the engine at 1,000rpm for 30 minutes via a lathe. Cheers bigdaddy

-------------


This used to be a hot subject of debate in the model mags, many, many years ago.

The conclusion back then was that you could not obtain the same effect from spinning an engine backwards or forwards as you could from running the engine. The connecting rods of engines spun by electric motor were "worn in" in a useless direction since no pressure from the piston was applied to the connecting rod.

My .28's received about an hours worth of running each on the bench, but were still breaking-in in the air for quite a while after their first flights. I'm convinced that using fuel with all castor lube would have sped things up considerably, but this is only a hypothesis.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-02-2007, 06:25 PM
  #30  
JollyPopper
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

OK, I still want to get this thing running reliably. Looking through the muffler port, I don't see any ring on the piston. Therefore, am I to assume it should be broken in the same way an ABC/ABN engine is--running flat out just a tad rich (I haven't been able to get it to WOT yet because it quits) .. Or should it be slobbering rich as a ringed engine would be? Also, my postal scale is getting this thing at 20.1 oz. with the muffler on it. Is this in the ball park or is my scale lying to me? BTW, I was looking for numbers somewhere to identify what series it is since someone mentioned above that they had part no 5800. I can't find any identifying numbers anywhere on it. Any ideas why that is?
Old 12-02-2007, 06:29 PM
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w8ye
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

The K&B 65 Sportster was a unique engine. It is not ringed. But it is not exactly ABC either.

You need to run it a little rich until it loosens up?
Old 12-02-2007, 06:32 PM
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Bob Paris
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Hi guys...
I really like K & B engines. I've flown them for many years and I have many built up by C. Lee. I have run all the Sportster engines with good experience, and I have five Sportster .45's. I also have one K & B 1.00 aero engine.

I've one Sportster .45 that runs better the any racing .40 I've ever ran up against, and was so powerful...it truly surprised me...and K & B too...for they asked for me to send them the engine back for inspection...and I did. It still runs like its on fire and a good 1500 rpm faster then any other .45 sportster I have.

I found it takes time to break in the engines...and I do take my time to do this. Usually a good hour or longer. I use an all castor nitro fuel when I run them, and I use 20 to 22% oil in my fuel. For some reason these engines seem to like castor oil and I add oil to get 20% or a bit more in my fuel. I never use less then 18% castor oil.

The .65 seems to love larger props...and I wouldn't use any prop on this engine smaller then a 13 x 6. I have run three .65's over the years, and a have lots of good to say about my experience with these engines. Yes...they operate a bit different...but once you know what they need to run well, run like a dream.

I was trully surprised at the power of the K & B .48 and Twister .60 . I love my K & B .61 and though I've rebuilt it three times in the past 30 years, it still runs great, rock solid and with the Perry carb w/PDP...will idle so low, you have to see it to believe it. Mr. C. Lee builds/rebuilds my K & B engines, and after he does his magic...all my engines run like a fine Swiss watch.

Soft landings always,
Bobby of Maui
Old 12-03-2007, 08:15 AM
  #33  
dennis
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

If your 45 runs better then some special motors then you have one of the first series.They were reviewed in RC Report back in the day when they first appeared and that comment was made repeatedly. Their motor was also sent into K&B for evaluation. It was one of the few times that a further review was published and that included a few [hop up] additions with the main piece being a pipe. As I remember it the RPM as truly respectable.
They must have dumbed it down in the next and subsequent production runs.
Intererstingly I have 2 of the 45's for years and have never fired up either of them. It was really quite a large motor for a 45 at the time.
Dennis
Old 12-03-2007, 11:44 AM
  #34  
Bob Paris
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Hi Dennis,
I have a K & B Sportster .45 in a kit built Slow Poke and it has been in this model for over three years. I have no idea how many gallons of fuel I have run through this engine...and it still has good power. Yes, I agree it is a bit larger then most engines its size, but for the price, power and ease of use-a no brainer for me. I know a lot of guys kind of give these engines a bad rap, but I have nothing but good to say about them.

You can also call K & B any day you want, and get a warm body to talk to. Try to do this with most engines today that are made in China or Japan.

Also I was very suprised at the power output of the K & B Twister .61. I have this engine in a Hanger 9 Ultra Sport .40...and what a match. This engine is not only light, but swings a 13 x 6 with authority, and is light in weight. The model balanced with out any tail weight, and it has great vertical perfomance.

Soft Landings always,
Bobby of Maui
Old 12-03-2007, 02:56 PM
  #35  
dennis
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Hi Bob,
yes the twist 61 is a very good engine so is the ABC 40 if you have one. We did some testing on the K&B40 abc with a diesel head when they came out and were suprised to see it turn an 11/7 at 13,200 rpm. K&B has always made a very good motor performance wise, just sometimes that their execution of the engine was a little off.But I've used them from the early 50's till the present day with no real issues.
Dennis
Old 12-03-2007, 03:28 PM
  #36  
jessiej
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

I recall reading a construction article for a R/C assist Simplex. The author/builder had used a Sportster .20 with quite a large prop anw ran it at surprisningly low RPM. I can't rember the particulars (par for the course for me) and am out of town but when I get home I will try to find the article. Hie entheusiasm for the little Sportster in an old timer.impressed me enough to pick one up from the bay place. Naturally I have not yet built the model for it.

jess
Old 12-04-2007, 12:46 AM
  #37  
Bob Paris
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Hay Dennis,
I have one of the older Veco .61 r/c engines. I bought it in a swap met here on Maui, and it was in a plastic container-of a dozen or so glow engines. I sent it to Clarence Lee and he asked me where I found it. He rebuilt the engine to like new, and told me it was not run much at all and looked new inside. I've always planned to put it in a Sig Hog kit I have...and one day I will.

I've run K & B .19's and I liked that engine too. Put a high compression head on the engine and you can hop up the nitro a bit for more power. I wore two .19's out...but I don't think they are in production any more. I've several of the newer .18's and sweet running engines too. The .18 is not as powerful as I would like...but its easy to start and reliable.

I ran a K & B Sportster .20 in a Sunny biplane and the Sportser .28 in a Telemaster 66. As far as I can figure out...both the bodies of the engines are the same, and the only difference is the cyclinder/piston combination you bolt onto the crank case. They are nice running engines and good power too. They are a bit large...but all the Sporster series seem to be a bit larger then OS. With the U.S. dollar taking a nose dive...They are a real bargan today.

Soft Landings always,
Bobby of Maui
Old 12-06-2007, 11:55 AM
  #38  
JollyPopper
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

So does anyone know how to run this thing during break in? I am running 10% nitro, 18% oil half castor and half synthetic and I am adding castor oil to it at the rate of 4 oz/gal. Last night I got the thing to run at WOT for about 30-45 seconds and then it just quit and sat there and smoked and sizzled like a bbq grill. It was obviously overheated but I had it slobberingly rich. So should this thing be run somewhere below WOT for some time before going to WOT? Should it be transitioned from idle to wide open every few seconds? A true ABC/ABN engine needs heat to break in--a ringed engine needs to run cooler on break in. Where is this thing in the overall scheme of things? BTW, I have an 11-6 prop on it at the time, but I have tried everyting up to 13-6 on it.
Old 12-06-2007, 03:16 PM
  #39  
dennis
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Jolly popper,
Think old school technology and break in. Even though it is a chromed piston and high grade silicon fused block it needs to be broken in somewhat like a Fox 35. For starters get rid of any synthetic oil, and use a slightly smaller prop then the normal flying prop. The reason for this is that you don't want any load on the motor. Next you never lean this motor out for about one hour. Start at a breaking 4/2 cycle and let it run for about 2/3 minutes, check temp while you run it.Shut down and let it cool completely. Repeat this procedure about 8 times. While your running the motor occassionally pinch the fuel line to speed it up and then let it come back to your setting.
So heres the rational behind this. No load prop means that the motor does not overheat trying to pull a club. Keeping it rich and not letting it run lean means that the parts gets to wear in at a controlled rate, not wear out.Pinching the fuel line momentarely heats the motor up a little more and helps in heat in the break in process. The cycles while normally used on an iron/steel set up like a Fox 35 while techinically not necessary to the K&B have been found to help relieve stresses in the parts and of course the controlled heating and cooling cycles will help the fit. Last, the reason that I never use any synthetic in these is simply that they are far less efficient in dealing with heat in this type of motor,Castor provides a far superior film strength then synthetic and if your motor overheats it keeps working without flashing off like synthetics. Your Sportster is a plain bearing motor and the castor will provide a better film for the Crank/brearing life.
OK, so someone is definitely going to reply that they never use castor and their motor runs fine etc,etc, Your welcome to listen to them and take what they say and use it, However since I still run my first one that i got in the 80's and it has never been apart and startes and runs perfectly I must be doing something right.Ditto for the 50 year old Enyas and OS' in my pile.
As to fuel, I use 25% oil and 10% nitro, do not use anything higher as your waisting your money and the motor will run hottter the it needs to. When broken in the engine likes large props. I am flying a Sportster 20 on a Sig Primary Force C/L with this fuel. The Engine is quite old and still flyes this plane as well as a larger emgine. Prop is a 10/4, fuel is Sig Champion 25% castor.
Dennis
Old 12-06-2007, 03:34 PM
  #40  
JollyPopper
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Dennis, I will be happy to go with your advice if you will tell me what speed you're running this thing during the eight or so cycles.
You say to run it 2/3 minutes and then shut it down, but at what speed?
Thanks

Max

Old 12-06-2007, 07:45 PM
  #41  
jessiej
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Dennis mentions "old school technology". In the "old school there were no tachometers. He mentions the 4/2 cycle. Look for the point when the engine just breaks from a four to a two cycle. This is a good starting point regardless of the RPM at which it takes place.

jess
Old 12-06-2007, 09:23 PM
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NM2K
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

I'd go with Dennis' advice.

With the throttle wide open, that is.

This engine is unlike any other engine that you have ever ran before. Fortunately, for me, it seems not to be real critical during break-in, other than the fact that you just aren't going to get there quickly if you mess up. Why? Because it quits. Sort of an autosave feature. <G>

I was frustrated with my .28's and named them "the self machining engine". They spit out so much metal that I was really afraid that I wouldn't have anything left to send back to K&B for a warranty claim. However, both of mine turned out just fine and I am pleased with them. Well, one of them. I sold the other one with the most time on it a while back when I realized that I didn't have the bushed model that I would convert to Diesel operation. The remaining .28 still needs quite a bit of running to break-in fully, but it is flyable and reliable on the 9x4 prop. I expect that it will accept a larger prop after it gets some more operating time on it. It is currently powering my wife's 7 plus pound Ben Buckle Red Zephyr 72" span R/C assist free flight model. And doing an excellent job of it too.

If any engine ever needed all castor 22% lube, the Sportster series appear to be "it".

I have flown other's .65 Sportster and liked it so much that I bought my own .65 from Frank Schwarz (Grid Leaks author). They are different from everything else I own, but they have their own very likeable personalies.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-07-2007, 01:48 PM
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JollyPopper
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

OKguys, I got it running with the carb barrel wide open last night, but it didn't sound like it was running very fast. I didn't bother with a tach, but it sounded like it was only at 7,000 to maybe 9,000 RPM. That was with added castor in the fuel and with the needle valve cranked about two turns out from where I had it running previously. I am running this thing in an enclosed room, so I have a clear plastic hose attached to the muffler and running to the outside to keep slobber and noise and stink outside the room. Will that hose make any difference in the running? Seems to me the back pressure would be produced where the 1/2 in aluminum stack exits the muffler and anything beyond that would have no effect. Is that wrong thinking? Sure makes it quiet and tolerable inside.
Old 12-07-2007, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Two strokes are very sensitive to the slightest exhaust restriction.
Old 12-07-2007, 03:10 PM
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dennis
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Excessive back pressure is a sure fire way to fry a motor.
Dennis
Old 12-07-2007, 05:09 PM
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NM2K
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

It just so happens that the K&B Sportster series of mufflers have been tuned to produce quiet power with a minimum of backpressure. This allows the engines to turn up faster than they otherwise would have with a conventional muffler. So, yes, your engine's rpms are most likely being severely limited by your use of the tube.

On the other hand, as long as you keep the mixture very rich, no damage is likely to be done. Two-stroke engines, unlike four-strokes, are nearly impossible to burn up as long as you flow enough fuel through them.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-07-2007, 08:39 PM
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster


[quote]ORIGINAL: dennis

For starters get rid of any synthetic oil, and use a slightly smaller prop then the normal flying prop. The reason for this is that you don't want any load on the motor.





JOLLYPOPPER, I agree with Dennis, especially if you have the non-bushed (using the crankcase as the bearing) model. Saw a guy trying to keep one up in the air, & it ran (and quit) just as you described. After the 3rd attempt failed, an oldster asked the guy what fuel he was using. (all syn) The oldster convinced the guy to try a tank-full of his (all castor) fuel. The thing ran a full flight, no problem. Since I, too, am an "oldster" I'm biased, & try to use all-castor in everything, even 4-strokes. However this was/is the only time that I saw an instant "night & day" change. ..................... George. K.
Old 08-02-2009, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

I have several KB 65 sportsters and love them. I first encountered them while flying Target Drones in the US Army. I've read about the long break in required, but to be honest, in the army we would bolt them in, squezze out every last RPM for hand launch, and with a 12x 6 and 15% nitro, never realy had many quit in flight, although they were flown wide open for the most part.
Here's my question for Sportster 65 gurus out there........... I purchased the bushed crankcase from MECOA, but read somewhere that the later models also had bushed conecting rods. Mine all have plain aluminum conecting rods. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Want to to confirm before I order a rod from mecoa only to find it is identical to what I have. Also, has anyone tried drilling an oil hole in the rod of the SPortster 65...... if so any guidance? i.e. what size, where, etc. It looks like there is plenty of "meat" to drill a hole, just concerned about creating a bur inside. Any help appreciated!!!!!
Old 06-23-2011, 06:10 PM
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woodburner
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster

Hi guys... any news about this engine? I just got a brand new .65 Sportster off Ebay for a mere 28 bucks. Cheers!
Old 06-23-2011, 06:28 PM
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Default RE: K&B .65 Sportster


ORIGINAL: woodburner

Hi guys... any news about this engine? I just got a brand new .65 Sportster off Ebay for a mere 28 bucks. Cheers!
Look in the backplate recess on the rear of the engine. There should be a 2 digit number stamped on it. If its "91" you have a military RCMAT Drone engine and will have carburetion problems. If it has just about any other number other than "91", then you should be in good shape carb-wise. I have 2 "91" K&B Sportster .65's (one is still un-run )the runner doesn't throttle worth a damn but it'll turn a 13x6APC at 10,200rpm on 10% nitro. (They need new carburetors) They really need all castor oil in the fuel - no synthetics if you want it to run right. I run mine on 5% nitro/20% castor and it runs pretty good on the top end and idle, but the midrange is worse than a SuperTigre midrange.

One more thing... Plan on 1-2 gallons to get the engine broke in well. They are somewhat crudely machined and need lots of "self machining" time. I ran mine WOT 4-stroking for a quart of fuel, then leaned it down over the course of another quart of fuel before I put it on my airboat. Its still nowhere near broke in yet, but the carburetion is so horrible I just dont want to run it until I get a new carb.

AFAIK, the drone engines are the only ones with crappy carbs.. Most others that I've heard about throttle really well and swing baseball bats pretty happily.

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