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Saito 115 cam lubrication

Old 02-08-2009, 12:37 PM
  #26  
42etus
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Thanks XJet. What kind of trouble could I get into by pulling the cambox cover off (Saito 82) to take a peek in there? Wreck the gasket.... or?


Ernie
Ernie, you'd likely wreck the gasket and you'd need to time the cam to the crank as you re-assembled it. Neither are a big issue.
Paul
Old 02-08-2009, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Saito has approached this problem in a different way on the Saito 40A R/C and C/L engines. Notice the crankcase vent in the right side of the cam box. But also notice that they have cast a boss there to have enough meat for the threads. Macs Headers makes a nipple with a flat flange on the backside and a retaining nut on the outside that would work well on the Saito 100, 115, & 125


Old 02-08-2009, 01:55 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Dar, I agree with everything you have said here. I recently acquired my first four stroke model engine, an Enya .46. I have completely disassebled it and noted no abnormal ware on the cam lobes or tappets. There are two holes approximately 3mm in diameter in the dividing wall between the cam box and crankcase. I don't believe the camshaft drive mechanisim receives enough lubrication. I have an idea to circumvent this problem and I'll let everyone know if it works. I just have to decide which of my engines to shoose to serve as a lab rat.

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

The OS four stroke engines with the sealed rear bearings have a cross drilled crankshaft from the center cavity to a point in front of the bearing for oil passage.

However on the OS 70 & 91 Surpass II and Surpass I the only difference is cadmium plating and the cross drilled hole. Therefore you need to be aware of what you have if you are mixing and matching parts
Old 02-08-2009, 02:11 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

THAT's what I'm talkin'bout!

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 02:26 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Ram Jet

Dar, I agree with everything you have said here. I recently acquired my first four stroke model engine, an Enya .46. I have completely disassebled it and noted no abnormal ware on the cam lobes or tappets. There are two holes approximately 3mm in diameter in the dividing wall between the cam box and crankcase. I don't believe the camshaft drive mechanisim receives enough lubrication. I have an idea to circumvent this problem and I'll let everyone know if it works. I just have to decide which of my engines to shoose to serve as a lab rat.

Bill


Have you had a failure in that area with an Enya four-stroke? None of my Enya four-strokes have displayed a problem with camshaft/lifter/gear lubrication at all. Some of my Enya four-strokes are getting very old with many, many hours of operation logged on them.

We have to remember that the oil in the crankcase is whipped into a mist that permeates the engine well, except in some cases where there is insufficient circulation. None of my Enya engines have displayed the slightest problem, but I am bad for loading up my engines, two and four-strokes, with lots of ARO just to be safe. I've even used regular motor oil for lubrication in the lower crankcase of four-strokes. You'll get some strange stains on your model when you do that, but it doesn't seem to affect the finish permanently in most cases. It even looks kind of realistic, if you know what I mean?


Ed Cregger
Old 02-08-2009, 02:57 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

I had 5 Enya 46-4C apart last year or two, and 4 of the 5 showed rust in the cam box. There is no circulation there and the area is relatively enclosed with only those two small holes to let oil in or out. I'm considering adding the OS Alpha type oil passages to the one I have left. This would certainly keep oil flowing through there.

I think the positive crankcase vent system will soon be added to all model four strokes. I think it can be added to Saitos just as well. I haven't tried it yet, only because I have just a couple of them.
Old 02-08-2009, 03:40 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

You are right about the motor oil. I have had a-lot of very happy two cycle outboard motors that ran just fine on 30 wt engine oil/gas mix. Back in the 60s you would say "Two cycle oil - WHAT?" The Enyas may be OK because, at least on my .46, there are those two connecting holes between the cam box and crankcase. Upon tear down I noted the smallest little caged ball bearing assembly I have ever seen and man was it guncked-up with old castor. I cringe at the thought of having to replace it someday. I am concerned about the plain bearings on the ends of the cams though. I'd rether the crankcase breather exit the cam box and not the crankcase. There is not much to encourage the oil mist to enter the cam box.

Bill

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 03:48 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

I've got something in mind involving a Perry Pump and the PCV idea is right there in the mix.

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 03:53 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger N2ECW


ORIGINAL: Ram Jet

Dar, I agree with everything you have said here. I recently acquired my first four stroke model engine, an Enya .46. I have completely disassebled it and noted no abnormal ware on the cam lobes or tappets. There are two holes approximately 3mm in diameter in the dividing wall between the cam box and crankcase. I don't believe the camshaft drive mechanisim receives enough lubrication. I have an idea to circumvent this problem and I'll let everyone know if it works. I just have to decide which of my engines to shoose to serve as a lab rat.

Bill


Have you had a failure in that area with an Enya four-stroke? None of my Enya four-strokes have displayed a problem with camshaft/lifter/gear lubrication at all. Some of my Enya four-strokes are getting very old with many, many hours of operation logged on them.

We have to remember that the oil in the crankcase is whipped into a mist that permeates the engine well, except in some cases where there is insufficient circulation. None of my Enya engines have displayed the slightest problem, but I am bad for loading up my engines, two and four-strokes, with lots of ARO just to be safe. I've even used regular motor oil for lubrication in the lower crankcase of four-strokes. You'll get some strange stains on your model when you do that, but it doesn't seem to affect the finish permanently in most cases. It even looks kind of realistic, if you know what I mean?


Ed Cregger
I has Enya 41-4C D Diesel, there are not piston ring, cast iron piston and steel liner only. Strange, the engine never been wrecked due lack of piston ring to allow oil to blow past to crank case. (Do not forget the OS FL 70 4 stroke engine with ringless ABC piston/sleeve.)There are enough oil there when i disassembled the engine. No sign of worned camshaft, lifter etc.. The lifter are rotating when the engine are running, it make less worned cam/lifter.
As rule i am adding oil in crankcase before use to get valve gear lubricated and after use to prevent rust.

Enya are well made to last foreve so long the engine get good maintenance.
Old 02-08-2009, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Yes, it seems that blow by is the only thing relied upon to lubricate everything below the piston crown. I just doesn't seem too smart.

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 04:08 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: DarZeelon


I own just one such engine, which I traded for a used one with another prominent member of this forum.

Despite any fear I had, this Saito .72 has so far given me no trouble at all.

But from all I have read here, I think perhaps I am lucky...
The .72 is a fine engine, but there is an issue with some backplates. This had me jumping through hoops until it was fixed, but I love the engine. Your engine came from a good source, so no wonder it is trouble free.
Old 02-08-2009, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Ram Jet

Yes, it seems that blow by is the only thing relied upon to lubricate everything below the piston crown. I just doesn't seem too smart.

Bill
The early 4 stroke engines has breather nipple mounted at back cover and not all engines got oil entered into the valve gear. There was dry and free of oil. The solution was to add oil in the crankcase before use, but not allways..

See at the modern 4 stroke engines, there are breather nipple mounted near or in same zone where valve gear are placed and the oil fog will enter into the valve gear first before breather nipple. It provides safe lubrication..

Even in modern Saito engines have not always had breather nipple placed there where valve gear are in their place.
Stupid that Saito engineers did not learn of other engineers of OS,Magnum etc to put the nipple in the right place .. []
Old 02-08-2009, 04:38 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Right on Motorboy. I have given thought to drilling and tapping my cam drive box to accomodate the crankcase breather nipple and plugging the factory installed nipple.
Old 02-08-2009, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Ram Jet

Right on Motorboy. I have given thought to drilling and tapping my cam drive box to accomodate the crankcase breather nipple and plugging the factory installed nipple.
Important to find where in the crankcase has enough material to be tapped before breather nipple are mounted.
Old 02-08-2009, 06:02 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Back about 4-5 years ago, Bill Robison and I talked a few times on the phone about some mods to the Saito cam/lifter/valvetrain lubrication "system" (or lack of same )...

It entailed filing ( with a triangular jewlers file ) 2 shallow grooves (one front, one rear ) in each of the lifter bores...maybe .005 to .010" deep to allow oil flow past the lifters. Then drilling/tapping holes (1 ea. ) in the rocker covers for a pressure fitting. The 2 could be T'd and either vented overboard, or plumbed into the intake tube, PCV style.
Old 02-08-2009, 07:41 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

ORIGINAL: proptop

Back about 4-5 years ago, Bill Robison and I talked a few times on the phone about some mods to the Saito cam/lifter/valvetrain lubrication "system" (or lack of same )...

It entailed filing ( with a triangular jewlers file ) 2 shallow grooves (one front, one rear ) in each of the lifter bores...maybe .005 to .010" deep to allow oil flow past the lifters. Then drilling/tapping holes (1 ea. ) in the rocker covers for a pressure fitting. The 2 could be T'd and either vented overboard, or plumbed into the intake tube, PCV style.
I was thinking adding passages only on the exhaust follower bore and piping the exhaust rocker cover to the intake rocker cover. Finally, adding a passage to the intake port.
Old 02-08-2009, 07:47 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Back three or four years ago, Hobbsy had an older Saito with the thick sided cam box. He put nipples on both sides of the cam box. He ran a fuel line from the rear vent to one side of the cam box so the waste oil could blow by the cam.
Old 02-08-2009, 08:45 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

R, the danger to the Enya fourstrokes is rust in the cam area, this is easily prevented by removing the screw that holds the carb bracket to the cam box. I remove it and inject Corrosion X if I'm storing the .46 or .53 TN.
I drilled and tapped this .90 for that very purpose
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:54 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Jim, you can see that my 2.20 has a boss in the same place but no vent there.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

I don't have a 220. I don't have a 40 either but happened to notice the vent the other day.

In spite of all this lack of oil in the cam area talk on Saitos, I really haven't had any trouble except for the lifters. I would rather the lifter wear out than the cam
Old 02-08-2009, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Yes, great care is advised.

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 10:13 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Positive crankcase ventilation. Sounds good to me.

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Why not run the dicharge (crankcase vent into the intake manifold and put that wast oil to good use?

Bill
Old 02-08-2009, 10:21 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Thanks, now I know where to tap into the cam box to add a fitting.

Bill

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