Saito 115 cam lubrication
02-13-2009, 05:05 PM
#101
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
On any fourstroke other than YS its a good policy to lube the rockers once in a while, on a YS the rocker area is part of the plenum and has fuel passing through it all the time.
02-13-2009, 09:25 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner
I still would like to know how the top end gets lubricated if lifter bores are so tight?
Thanks,
Ernie
I still would like to know how the top end gets lubricated if lifter bores are so tight?
Thanks,
Ernie
Me too. And what REALLY scares me is how is that very hard working big end con rod bearing getting sufficient lub? Blowby alone? Scarey.
Bill
02-13-2009, 09:32 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: gkamysz
Dave, in addition to the YS, the new OS Alpha have lubrication passing through the valve train.
Dave, in addition to the YS, the new OS Alpha have lubrication passing through the valve train.
I have had my Enya .46 apart but didn't pay close attention to the valve train oiling issue. I'll have my 1.55 apart soon and will check it out very closely.
Bill
02-13-2009, 10:29 PM
#107
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Ram Jet
I have had my Enya .46 apart but didn't pay close attention to the valve train oiling issue. I'll have my 1.55 apart soon and will check it out very closely.
Bill
ORIGINAL: gkamysz
Dave, in addition to the YS, the new OS Alpha have lubrication passing through the valve train.
Dave, in addition to the YS, the new OS Alpha have lubrication passing through the valve train.
I have had my Enya .46 apart but didn't pay close attention to the valve train oiling issue. I'll have my 1.55 apart soon and will check it out very closely.
Bill
02-13-2009, 10:34 PM
#108
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
It seems like nearly all manufacturers of model four-stroke engine, either think that all modelers are suckers... Or that none of the manufacturers ever studied mechanical engineering...
The camshaft and lifter lubrication, in most four-stroke engine, can at best be considered rudimentary/borderline.
I am surprised they even last as long as they do... And some manufacturers even do worse, by making mistakes; such as the one OS made, but using a fully sealed rear bearing in the now defunct .70FL, which made the availability of fresh oil to the camshaft/cam-gear/lifters, even less copious than none at all...[sm=disappointed.gif]
Also; if you look at the cams and at the lifters/tappets/cam-followers, you will see another moot design consideration...
The lifters in a full-size engine had a rather large diameter (or are 'mushroomed') and a have convex bottom, so they only contact the cam-lobe with their bottom and are actually rotated, as the rotating cam-lobe slides against it.
This rule does not appear to be followed by model four-stroke engine manufacturers... It appears the cam lobes could ride on the edges of the rather small diameter lifter; which can damage both the lobe and the lifter.
...It appears engine longevity was never paramount, on their requirements list...
For a long time I was quite reluctant to purchase any four-stroke engine; because of these, among the reasons.
I own just one such engine, which I traded for a used one with another prominent member of this forum.
Despite any fear I had, this Saito .72 has so far given me no trouble at all.
But from all I have read here, I think perhaps I am lucky...
It seems like nearly all manufacturers of model four-stroke engine, either think that all modelers are suckers... Or that none of the manufacturers ever studied mechanical engineering...
The camshaft and lifter lubrication, in most four-stroke engine, can at best be considered rudimentary/borderline.
I am surprised they even last as long as they do... And some manufacturers even do worse, by making mistakes; such as the one OS made, but using a fully sealed rear bearing in the now defunct .70FL, which made the availability of fresh oil to the camshaft/cam-gear/lifters, even less copious than none at all...[sm=disappointed.gif]
Also; if you look at the cams and at the lifters/tappets/cam-followers, you will see another moot design consideration...
The lifters in a full-size engine had a rather large diameter (or are 'mushroomed') and a have convex bottom, so they only contact the cam-lobe with their bottom and are actually rotated, as the rotating cam-lobe slides against it.
This rule does not appear to be followed by model four-stroke engine manufacturers... It appears the cam lobes could ride on the edges of the rather small diameter lifter; which can damage both the lobe and the lifter.
...It appears engine longevity was never paramount, on their requirements list...
For a long time I was quite reluctant to purchase any four-stroke engine; because of these, among the reasons.
I own just one such engine, which I traded for a used one with another prominent member of this forum.
Despite any fear I had, this Saito .72 has so far given me no trouble at all.
But from all I have read here, I think perhaps I am lucky...
The double-sealed, grease-packed front bearing must be left as it came. It will never need any added lubrication and will outlast the engine itself.
This is true of all bearing types; steel and ceramic balls.
Removing the bearing's inner seal and flushing the grease out will just 'expose the bearing to the elements'... This means FOD, corrosive materials and lubricants inferior to the grease it was packed with...
More drag, sure! But the magnitude is nearly immeasurable.
02-13-2009, 10:57 PM
#111
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Original:w8ye
As soon as you crank up the engine the excess grease starts leaving the bearing. Within short order the extra drag of the excess grease is gone.
All it takes is a few seconds at full throttle.
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As soon as you crank up the engine the excess grease starts leaving the bearing. Within short order the extra drag of the excess grease is gone.
All it takes is a few seconds at full throttle.
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02-13-2009, 11:08 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
You know w8, I do remember the rust in the little (smallest caged ball bearing I've ever seen) bearing that supports the cam drive gear shaft. Heck I thought it was old castor. It cleaned up well with lacquer thinner. I hope I never have to try to remove that little sucker. If they can make a bearing that small I wish they would make a small needle bearing for the big end of the con rods.
Bill
Bill
02-13-2009, 11:16 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: w8ye
you run it fast and get it hot, that grease is coming out anyway
you run it fast and get it hot, that grease is coming out anyway
Absolutely. Auto wheel bearing grease will liquify also after long running and heat build up which may be a good thing overall.
Bill
02-13-2009, 11:21 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings
A sealed bearing must be sealed. Period.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8070559/tm.htm
A sealed bearing must be sealed. Period.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8070559/tm.htm
Bill
02-27-2009, 12:31 AM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
I’m worried about my Saito 115 cam lube. Most of you in this thread have been helping me repair my Saito 125 in the other thread. “Thanks. I’m still waiting for a piston ring…” I’ve learned a lot in the couple years running my 100 and 125, which are both in a broken status. The Saito 100 had a cage blown out of the rear bearing after 12 flights. I put it on the shelf most of last year and Horizon is now fixing it now under warrantee and waiting a crank case… My 125, I broke the exhaust port casting of the jug on crash a few weeks ago. However on closer inspection the 125 had its inner race of the rear bearing peeled off which spewed metal fragments inside the engine causing case damage to the piston, ring and jug. (Only 25 hours on that engine) However the Cam and lifters looked good…. Now, onto my 115…
This evening I entertained my neighbors for over an hour with an extended break in and run of my 115. Some of you may agree or not about extended running on a test stand, but I could run the motor all day on the test stand, I just love running these engines.
Here’s the fuel I use for break-in; Ritch’s Brew %15 nitro, %18 all synthetic with an additional 4 oz Sig AA castor Oil (I calculate between 20 – 21 % total oil) I don’t want to waste expensive %30 Cool Power Heli fuel that I use for flying for break in and I have a bunch of this Ritch’s brew that I don’t like to use in my planes so I save it for test stand mix/runs.
After a good 50 minutes of breaking in the engine with a variation of the manual, Robinson’s and your techniques, I adjusted my valves (the intake was way off, surprisingly 10 thousands, and the exhaust valve only a couple thousands of an inch.) I broke this engine in with a 13x8APC. At peak with this prop it was just over 11,100 RPM. After my valve adjustment I changed props to my intended flying propeller, my favorite 13x11 APC that has been running so well for me on my Saito 100 and 125… The 115 is running a respectable 9,400 after tuning 300 down from peak with the 13x11 and the now 30% Cool Power heli fuel. Now the bad part…
At the end of this 10 minute run she sat idling. I noticed a sudden and horrible clicking. Just before she was sounding like the typical Swiss sewing machine when abruptly there was a noticeable clicking/tapping. “Stop engine and tear apart..”
I took the engine into the house on its PSP test stand and did not change its incidence, up or down, etc. I removed the rear cover, took the cylinder head off (With piston still inside so as not to have to reseat the ring) and eventually got to the cam box. It was BONE DRY. Though oil pissed out the back of the crank case, there was nothing in the cam box. The tappets were nicely mushroomed-typical of much higher use wear. The cam showed premature wear too. I should have gauged it and took pictures – sorry. Anyhow, it was a dry metal cam rubbing on dry metal tappets… (During the hour run, I had the crank case vent open to atmosphere so the lubrication system should be working, right?) “There should be oil vapor misting toward the front – thru the rear bearing wetting the crank cam gear and wetting the tappets, right? NOT”
So to test out the lubrication I held the crank case in my hand, squirted a generous amount of after run oil (ATF) into the crankcase, tilted the assembly forward and watched it slide thru the rear bearing and into the bottom of cam box area. ***?
Here’s my 2 cents. Running a prolonged time on a test stand is not a good idea. The lubrication does not move forward into the cam box area. I am thinking that the attitude of the engine during normal flight, i.e., nose down and inverted here and there, may allow enough oil to get thru the rear bearing to do its job on the crank gear and wet the cams? For now, post flight-home storage I’m going to follow the advice of applying generous amounts of after run oil and putting my plane in a nose down. Also I am thinking not just nose down, but 45 degrees down and inverted as to saturate the cams. I am thinking that I may do this at the field in between flights, too. On a typical day at the field I will get about 3 to 6 flights in. I run my engines balls out as I’m using them on a speed type plane. So I’m putting anywhere from 10 to 16 minutes of hard use, bringing the plane back into the pits, refueling and then back up in the air again poking holes thru the clouds and passing by about 115mph flat out.
IMHO the cam box is not getting enough lubrication! We all know that after running our engines we can take of the crank case cover and see the oil drip out. That’s great, but it’s not getting up front and wetting the cam! So I think I will flip my plane over 45 degrees down and make sure the cam gets wet in between flights. Especially right after she comes in the pits, the engine is plenty warm and there is plenty of oil/fuel in the case to drip forward thru the rear bearing. But not just forward, I want it to drip up and around the cam.
I ran the engine again after I cleaned the grime off the cam and tappets, squirted generous amounts of ATF in the cam box and reassembled. The noise seemed to quiet down but I’m still worried. Some of you with no problems for years I am sure you do not run your engines as hard as I do. Conclusively, I love my Saito engines and refuse to go OS 4 stroke and I can’t afford YS to try them out yet. And I don’t want to void my warrantee by putting a fitting for lube in the cam box – though that looks like a great idea just to give it a shot of lube between flights if anything, too.
Sorry so long and thanks for listening…
P.S. Interestingly Horizon doesn’t have the 2008 small engine manual posted. But here is page 16 showing propeller selections for the 115. At first I was worried she wouldn’t turn a 13x11.
Phil
02-27-2009, 02:55 AM
#117
Senior Member
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Chancho
I’m worried about my Saito 115 cam lube. Most of you in this thread have been helping me repair my Saito 125 in the other thread. “Thanks. I’m still waiting for a piston ring…” I’ve learned a lot in the couple years running my 100 and 125, which are both in a broken status. The Saito 100 had a cage blown out of the rear bearing after 12 flights. I put it on the shelf most of last year and Horizon is now fixing it now under warrantee and waiting a crank case… My 125, I broke the exhaust port casting of the jug on crash a few weeks ago. However on closer inspection the 125 had its inner race of the rear bearing peeled off which spewed metal fragments inside the engine causing case damage to the piston, ring and jug. (Only 25 hours on that engine) However the Cam and lifters looked good…. Now, onto my 115…
This evening I entertained my neighbors for over an hour with an extended break in and run of my 115. Some of you may agree or not about extended running on a test stand, but I could run the motor all day on the test stand, I just love running these engines.
Here’s the fuel I use for break-in; Ritch’s Brew %15 nitro, %18 all synthetic with an additional 4 oz Sig AA castor Oil (I calculate between 20 – 21 % total oil) I don’t want to waste expensive %30 Cool Power Heli fuel that I use for flying for break in and I have a bunch of this Ritch’s brew that I don’t like to use in my planes so I save it for test stand mix/runs.
After a good 50 minutes of breaking in the engine with a variation of the manual, Robinson’s and your techniques, I adjusted my valves (the intake was way off, surprisingly 10 thousands, and the exhaust valve only a couple thousands of an inch.) I broke this engine in with a 13x8APC. At peak with this prop it was just over 11,100 RPM. After my valve adjustment I changed props to my intended flying propeller, my favorite 13x11 APC that has been running so well for me on my Saito 100 and 125… The 115 is running a respectable 9,400 after tuning 300 down from peak with the 13x11 and the now 30% Cool Power heli fuel. Now the bad part…
At the end of this 10 minute run she sat idling. I noticed a sudden and horrible clicking. Just before she was sounding like the typical Swiss sewing machine when abruptly there was a noticeable clicking/tapping. “Stop engine and tear apart..”
I took the engine into the house on its PSP test stand and did not change its incidence, up or down, etc. I removed the rear cover, took the cylinder head off (With piston still inside so as not to have to reseat the ring) and eventually got to the cam box. It was BONE DRY. Though oil pissed out the back of the crank case, there was nothing in the cam box. The tappets were nicely mushroomed-typical of much higher use wear. The cam showed premature wear too. I should have gauged it and took pictures – sorry. Anyhow, it was a dry metal cam rubbing on dry metal tappets… (During the hour run, I had the crank case vent open to atmosphere so the lubrication system should be working, right?) “There should be oil vapor misting toward the front – thru the rear bearing wetting the crank cam gear and wetting the tappets, right? NOT”
So to test out the lubrication I held the crank case in my hand, squirted a generous amount of after run oil (ATF) into the crankcase, tilted the assembly forward and watched it slide thru the rear bearing and into the bottom of cam box area. ***?
Here’s my 2 cents. Running a prolonged time on a test stand is not a good idea. The lubrication does not move forward into the cam box area. I am thinking that the attitude of the engine during normal flight, i.e., nose down and inverted here and there, may allow enough oil to get thru the rear bearing to do its job on the crank gear and wet the cams? For now, post flight-home storage I’m going to follow the advice of applying generous amounts of after run oil and putting my plane in a nose down. Also I am thinking not just nose down, but 45 degrees down and inverted as to saturate the cams. I am thinking that I may do this at the field in between flights, too. On a typical day at the field I will get about 3 to 6 flights in. I run my engines balls out as I’m using them on a speed type plane. So I’m putting anywhere from 10 to 16 minutes of hard use, bringing the plane back into the pits, refueling and then back up in the air again poking holes thru the clouds and passing by about 115mph flat out.
IMHO the cam box is not getting enough lubrication! We all know that after running our engines we can take of the crank case cover and see the oil drip out. That’s great, but it’s not getting up front and wetting the cam! So I think I will flip my plane over 45 degrees down and make sure the cam gets wet in between flights. Especially right after she comes in the pits, the engine is plenty warm and there is plenty of oil/fuel in the case to drip forward thru the rear bearing. But not just forward, I want it to drip up and around the cam.
I ran the engine again after I cleaned the grime off the cam and tappets, squirted generous amounts of ATF in the cam box and reassembled. The noise seemed to quiet down but I’m still worried. Some of you with no problems for years I am sure you do not run your engines as hard as I do. Conclusively, I love my Saito engines and refuse to go OS 4 stroke and I can’t afford YS to try them out yet. And I don’t want to void my warrantee by putting a fitting for lube in the cam box – though that looks like a great idea just to give it a shot of lube between flights if anything, too.
Sorry so long and thanks for listening…
P.S. Interestingly Horizon doesn’t have the 2008 small engine manual posted. But here is page 16 showing propeller selections for the 115. At first I was worried she wouldn’t turn a 13x11.
Phil
I’m worried about my Saito 115 cam lube. Most of you in this thread have been helping me repair my Saito 125 in the other thread. “Thanks. I’m still waiting for a piston ring…” I’ve learned a lot in the couple years running my 100 and 125, which are both in a broken status. The Saito 100 had a cage blown out of the rear bearing after 12 flights. I put it on the shelf most of last year and Horizon is now fixing it now under warrantee and waiting a crank case… My 125, I broke the exhaust port casting of the jug on crash a few weeks ago. However on closer inspection the 125 had its inner race of the rear bearing peeled off which spewed metal fragments inside the engine causing case damage to the piston, ring and jug. (Only 25 hours on that engine) However the Cam and lifters looked good…. Now, onto my 115…
This evening I entertained my neighbors for over an hour with an extended break in and run of my 115. Some of you may agree or not about extended running on a test stand, but I could run the motor all day on the test stand, I just love running these engines.
Here’s the fuel I use for break-in; Ritch’s Brew %15 nitro, %18 all synthetic with an additional 4 oz Sig AA castor Oil (I calculate between 20 – 21 % total oil) I don’t want to waste expensive %30 Cool Power Heli fuel that I use for flying for break in and I have a bunch of this Ritch’s brew that I don’t like to use in my planes so I save it for test stand mix/runs.
After a good 50 minutes of breaking in the engine with a variation of the manual, Robinson’s and your techniques, I adjusted my valves (the intake was way off, surprisingly 10 thousands, and the exhaust valve only a couple thousands of an inch.) I broke this engine in with a 13x8APC. At peak with this prop it was just over 11,100 RPM. After my valve adjustment I changed props to my intended flying propeller, my favorite 13x11 APC that has been running so well for me on my Saito 100 and 125… The 115 is running a respectable 9,400 after tuning 300 down from peak with the 13x11 and the now 30% Cool Power heli fuel. Now the bad part…
At the end of this 10 minute run she sat idling. I noticed a sudden and horrible clicking. Just before she was sounding like the typical Swiss sewing machine when abruptly there was a noticeable clicking/tapping. “Stop engine and tear apart..”
I took the engine into the house on its PSP test stand and did not change its incidence, up or down, etc. I removed the rear cover, took the cylinder head off (With piston still inside so as not to have to reseat the ring) and eventually got to the cam box. It was BONE DRY. Though oil pissed out the back of the crank case, there was nothing in the cam box. The tappets were nicely mushroomed-typical of much higher use wear. The cam showed premature wear too. I should have gauged it and took pictures – sorry. Anyhow, it was a dry metal cam rubbing on dry metal tappets… (During the hour run, I had the crank case vent open to atmosphere so the lubrication system should be working, right?) “There should be oil vapor misting toward the front – thru the rear bearing wetting the crank cam gear and wetting the tappets, right? NOT”
So to test out the lubrication I held the crank case in my hand, squirted a generous amount of after run oil (ATF) into the crankcase, tilted the assembly forward and watched it slide thru the rear bearing and into the bottom of cam box area. ***?
Here’s my 2 cents. Running a prolonged time on a test stand is not a good idea. The lubrication does not move forward into the cam box area. I am thinking that the attitude of the engine during normal flight, i.e., nose down and inverted here and there, may allow enough oil to get thru the rear bearing to do its job on the crank gear and wet the cams? For now, post flight-home storage I’m going to follow the advice of applying generous amounts of after run oil and putting my plane in a nose down. Also I am thinking not just nose down, but 45 degrees down and inverted as to saturate the cams. I am thinking that I may do this at the field in between flights, too. On a typical day at the field I will get about 3 to 6 flights in. I run my engines balls out as I’m using them on a speed type plane. So I’m putting anywhere from 10 to 16 minutes of hard use, bringing the plane back into the pits, refueling and then back up in the air again poking holes thru the clouds and passing by about 115mph flat out.
IMHO the cam box is not getting enough lubrication! We all know that after running our engines we can take of the crank case cover and see the oil drip out. That’s great, but it’s not getting up front and wetting the cam! So I think I will flip my plane over 45 degrees down and make sure the cam gets wet in between flights. Especially right after she comes in the pits, the engine is plenty warm and there is plenty of oil/fuel in the case to drip forward thru the rear bearing. But not just forward, I want it to drip up and around the cam.
I ran the engine again after I cleaned the grime off the cam and tappets, squirted generous amounts of ATF in the cam box and reassembled. The noise seemed to quiet down but I’m still worried. Some of you with no problems for years I am sure you do not run your engines as hard as I do. Conclusively, I love my Saito engines and refuse to go OS 4 stroke and I can’t afford YS to try them out yet. And I don’t want to void my warrantee by putting a fitting for lube in the cam box – though that looks like a great idea just to give it a shot of lube between flights if anything, too.
Sorry so long and thanks for listening…
P.S. Interestingly Horizon doesn’t have the 2008 small engine manual posted. But here is page 16 showing propeller selections for the 115. At first I was worried she wouldn’t turn a 13x11.
Phil
Please read my post #24 in this thread. You'll have to reel back to the first page...
02-27-2009, 08:55 AM
#118
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Dar,
You got it. I just reread the thread and you all are on spot and I seem to be reiterating what most of you have known for years and maybe I’m preaching to the choir so to speak. I was just alarmed when I opened my cam box last night.
I am certain that different sized engines have different dynamics going on in regards to lubrication making its way to the cam box. I am thinking that what type of fuel you use will have an effect as the different additives and oils will react differently to the heat and pressure. They will atomize differently and the fuel/oil mist gets worked around different too. There are different volumes of lube available inside the different sized engines too. People run their engines on different settings as these engines, despite many people’s complaints on how hard they are to set, are actually very forgiving in regards to mixture settings. We know that you can run them rich and watch the fuel pee out the breather tube. I run mine as lean as possible, not lean high needle, but lean meaning fuel efficient and best throttle response…
Not to get off subject, but it’s interesting how Saito has common parts for their common grouped engines. You would think that an 82 would have different/smaller tappets, cams, rockers, etc. than a 125. Nope. The same… I can understand their methodology in regards to the cost of retooling parts. And they only make new parts for new engines where/when necessary. They communize many same parts to save in manufacturing. KISS simple is working for them too. They don’t have to reinvent the wheel; it’s worked so well for so long. But why they didn’t improve the cam lube in the 115, I don’t know. I’m sure they know it’s a problem. I think the 115 served a couple purposes. Sure it got them another engine to market, but really it cleaned up the cylinder jug casting for the 125! It’s the same jug only minor machining differences! I’ll put more pictures and findings on the other thread for the engine rebuild as I have the new jug for the 125 sitting next to the old 125 jug and the 115. The fins are all cleaned up and the exhaust threads have more meat on them, etc..
Back to the 115: I guess I’ll be manually lubing my cam case with the squirt and tilt technique until either someone comes up with an aftermarket lube system or Saito designs something better. Even if there was an aftermarket lube system, I would again be hesitant to mod the engine until after warrantee.
Peace Out,
Phil
You got it. I just reread the thread and you all are on spot and I seem to be reiterating what most of you have known for years and maybe I’m preaching to the choir so to speak. I was just alarmed when I opened my cam box last night.
I am certain that different sized engines have different dynamics going on in regards to lubrication making its way to the cam box. I am thinking that what type of fuel you use will have an effect as the different additives and oils will react differently to the heat and pressure. They will atomize differently and the fuel/oil mist gets worked around different too. There are different volumes of lube available inside the different sized engines too. People run their engines on different settings as these engines, despite many people’s complaints on how hard they are to set, are actually very forgiving in regards to mixture settings. We know that you can run them rich and watch the fuel pee out the breather tube. I run mine as lean as possible, not lean high needle, but lean meaning fuel efficient and best throttle response…
Not to get off subject, but it’s interesting how Saito has common parts for their common grouped engines. You would think that an 82 would have different/smaller tappets, cams, rockers, etc. than a 125. Nope. The same… I can understand their methodology in regards to the cost of retooling parts. And they only make new parts for new engines where/when necessary. They communize many same parts to save in manufacturing. KISS simple is working for them too. They don’t have to reinvent the wheel; it’s worked so well for so long. But why they didn’t improve the cam lube in the 115, I don’t know. I’m sure they know it’s a problem. I think the 115 served a couple purposes. Sure it got them another engine to market, but really it cleaned up the cylinder jug casting for the 125! It’s the same jug only minor machining differences! I’ll put more pictures and findings on the other thread for the engine rebuild as I have the new jug for the 125 sitting next to the old 125 jug and the 115. The fins are all cleaned up and the exhaust threads have more meat on them, etc..
Back to the 115: I guess I’ll be manually lubing my cam case with the squirt and tilt technique until either someone comes up with an aftermarket lube system or Saito designs something better. Even if there was an aftermarket lube system, I would again be hesitant to mod the engine until after warrantee.
Peace Out,
Phil
02-27-2009, 10:14 AM
#119
Senior Member
RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Phil,
I guess the best step to take is gorging the cam-box with oil (I guess Fuchs Aerosave, or another high quality synthetic) and checking periodically, how much of the oil is still there...
This should first be done before the engine is ever run.
The same goes for the rocker chamber(s).
If oil from the fuel does not reach all parts of the engine as it is running, pre-lubrication is the best solution...
As to older, exposed rocker engines, should they get lubrication from 'oil floating around in the atmosphere'?
I guess the best step to take is gorging the cam-box with oil (I guess Fuchs Aerosave, or another high quality synthetic) and checking periodically, how much of the oil is still there...
This should first be done before the engine is ever run.
The same goes for the rocker chamber(s).
If oil from the fuel does not reach all parts of the engine as it is running, pre-lubrication is the best solution...
As to older, exposed rocker engines, should they get lubrication from 'oil floating around in the atmosphere'?
02-27-2009, 12:33 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
Phil,
I guess the best step to take is gorging the cam-box with oil (I guess Fuchs Aerosave, or another high quality synthetic) and checking periodically, how much of the oil is still there...
This should first be done before the engine is ever run.
The same goes for the rocker chamber(s).
If oil from the fuel does not reach all parts of the engine as it is running, pre-lubrication is the best solution...
As to older, exposed rocker engines, should they get lubrication from 'oil floating around in the atmosphere'?
Phil,
I guess the best step to take is gorging the cam-box with oil (I guess Fuchs Aerosave, or another high quality synthetic) and checking periodically, how much of the oil is still there...
This should first be done before the engine is ever run.
The same goes for the rocker chamber(s).
If oil from the fuel does not reach all parts of the engine as it is running, pre-lubrication is the best solution...
As to older, exposed rocker engines, should they get lubrication from 'oil floating around in the atmosphere'?
I'm determined to resolve this four cycle upper end/cam box lubrication issue.
More news at eleven.
Bill
02-27-2009, 12:36 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
This is a most interesting post, Phil!
Please read my post #24 in this thread. You'll have to reel back to the first page...
ORIGINAL: Chancho
I’m worried about my Saito 115 cam lube. Most of you in this thread have been helping me repair my Saito 125 in the other thread. “Thanks. I’m still waiting for a piston ring…” I’ve learned a lot in the couple years running my 100 and 125, which are both in a broken status. The Saito 100 had a cage blown out of the rear bearing after 12 flights. I put it on the shelf most of last year and Horizon is now fixing it now under warrantee and waiting a crank case… My 125, I broke the exhaust port casting of the jug on crash a few weeks ago. However on closer inspection the 125 had its inner race of the rear bearing peeled off which spewed metal fragments inside the engine causing case damage to the piston, ring and jug. (Only 25 hours on that engine) However the Cam and lifters looked good…. Now, onto my 115…
This evening I entertained my neighbors for over an hour with an extended break in and run of my 115. Some of you may agree or not about extended running on a test stand, but I could run the motor all day on the test stand, I just love running these engines.
Here’s the fuel I use for break-in; Ritch’s Brew %15 nitro, %18 all synthetic with an additional 4 oz Sig AA castor Oil (I calculate between 20 – 21 % total oil) I don’t want to waste expensive %30 Cool Power Heli fuel that I use for flying for break in and I have a bunch of this Ritch’s brew that I don’t like to use in my planes so I save it for test stand mix/runs.
After a good 50 minutes of breaking in the engine with a variation of the manual, Robinson’s and your techniques, I adjusted my valves (the intake was way off, surprisingly 10 thousands, and the exhaust valve only a couple thousands of an inch.) I broke this engine in with a 13x8APC. At peak with this prop it was just over 11,100 RPM. After my valve adjustment I changed props to my intended flying propeller, my favorite 13x11 APC that has been running so well for me on my Saito 100 and 125… The 115 is running a respectable 9,400 after tuning 300 down from peak with the 13x11 and the now 30% Cool Power heli fuel. Now the bad part…
At the end of this 10 minute run she sat idling. I noticed a sudden and horrible clicking. Just before she was sounding like the typical Swiss sewing machine when abruptly there was a noticeable clicking/tapping. “Stop engine and tear apart..”
I took the engine into the house on its PSP test stand and did not change its incidence, up or down, etc. I removed the rear cover, took the cylinder head off (With piston still inside so as not to have to reseat the ring) and eventually got to the cam box. It was BONE DRY. Though oil pissed out the back of the crank case, there was nothing in the cam box. The tappets were nicely mushroomed-typical of much higher use wear. The cam showed premature wear too. I should have gauged it and took pictures – sorry. Anyhow, it was a dry metal cam rubbing on dry metal tappets… (During the hour run, I had the crank case vent open to atmosphere so the lubrication system should be working, right?) “There should be oil vapor misting toward the front – thru the rear bearing wetting the crank cam gear and wetting the tappets, right? NOT”
So to test out the lubrication I held the crank case in my hand, squirted a generous amount of after run oil (ATF) into the crankcase, tilted the assembly forward and watched it slide thru the rear bearing and into the bottom of cam box area. ***?
Here’s my 2 cents. Running a prolonged time on a test stand is not a good idea. The lubrication does not move forward into the cam box area. I am thinking that the attitude of the engine during normal flight, i.e., nose down and inverted here and there, may allow enough oil to get thru the rear bearing to do its job on the crank gear and wet the cams? For now, post flight-home storage I’m going to follow the advice of applying generous amounts of after run oil and putting my plane in a nose down. Also I am thinking not just nose down, but 45 degrees down and inverted as to saturate the cams. I am thinking that I may do this at the field in between flights, too. On a typical day at the field I will get about 3 to 6 flights in. I run my engines balls out as I’m using them on a speed type plane. So I’m putting anywhere from 10 to 16 minutes of hard use, bringing the plane back into the pits, refueling and then back up in the air again poking holes thru the clouds and passing by about 115mph flat out.
IMHO the cam box is not getting enough lubrication! We all know that after running our engines we can take of the crank case cover and see the oil drip out. That’s great, but it’s not getting up front and wetting the cam! So I think I will flip my plane over 45 degrees down and make sure the cam gets wet in between flights. Especially right after she comes in the pits, the engine is plenty warm and there is plenty of oil/fuel in the case to drip forward thru the rear bearing. But not just forward, I want it to drip up and around the cam.
I ran the engine again after I cleaned the grime off the cam and tappets, squirted generous amounts of ATF in the cam box and reassembled. The noise seemed to quiet down but I’m still worried. Some of you with no problems for years I am sure you do not run your engines as hard as I do. Conclusively, I love my Saito engines and refuse to go OS 4 stroke and I can’t afford YS to try them out yet. And I don’t want to void my warrantee by putting a fitting for lube in the cam box – though that looks like a great idea just to give it a shot of lube between flights if anything, too.
Sorry so long and thanks for listening…
P.S. Interestingly Horizon doesn’t have the 2008 small engine manual posted. But here is page 16 showing propeller selections for the 115. At first I was worried she wouldn’t turn a 13x11.
Phil
I’m worried about my Saito 115 cam lube. Most of you in this thread have been helping me repair my Saito 125 in the other thread. “Thanks. I’m still waiting for a piston ring…” I’ve learned a lot in the couple years running my 100 and 125, which are both in a broken status. The Saito 100 had a cage blown out of the rear bearing after 12 flights. I put it on the shelf most of last year and Horizon is now fixing it now under warrantee and waiting a crank case… My 125, I broke the exhaust port casting of the jug on crash a few weeks ago. However on closer inspection the 125 had its inner race of the rear bearing peeled off which spewed metal fragments inside the engine causing case damage to the piston, ring and jug. (Only 25 hours on that engine) However the Cam and lifters looked good…. Now, onto my 115…
This evening I entertained my neighbors for over an hour with an extended break in and run of my 115. Some of you may agree or not about extended running on a test stand, but I could run the motor all day on the test stand, I just love running these engines.
Here’s the fuel I use for break-in; Ritch’s Brew %15 nitro, %18 all synthetic with an additional 4 oz Sig AA castor Oil (I calculate between 20 – 21 % total oil) I don’t want to waste expensive %30 Cool Power Heli fuel that I use for flying for break in and I have a bunch of this Ritch’s brew that I don’t like to use in my planes so I save it for test stand mix/runs.
After a good 50 minutes of breaking in the engine with a variation of the manual, Robinson’s and your techniques, I adjusted my valves (the intake was way off, surprisingly 10 thousands, and the exhaust valve only a couple thousands of an inch.) I broke this engine in with a 13x8APC. At peak with this prop it was just over 11,100 RPM. After my valve adjustment I changed props to my intended flying propeller, my favorite 13x11 APC that has been running so well for me on my Saito 100 and 125… The 115 is running a respectable 9,400 after tuning 300 down from peak with the 13x11 and the now 30% Cool Power heli fuel. Now the bad part…
At the end of this 10 minute run she sat idling. I noticed a sudden and horrible clicking. Just before she was sounding like the typical Swiss sewing machine when abruptly there was a noticeable clicking/tapping. “Stop engine and tear apart..”
I took the engine into the house on its PSP test stand and did not change its incidence, up or down, etc. I removed the rear cover, took the cylinder head off (With piston still inside so as not to have to reseat the ring) and eventually got to the cam box. It was BONE DRY. Though oil pissed out the back of the crank case, there was nothing in the cam box. The tappets were nicely mushroomed-typical of much higher use wear. The cam showed premature wear too. I should have gauged it and took pictures – sorry. Anyhow, it was a dry metal cam rubbing on dry metal tappets… (During the hour run, I had the crank case vent open to atmosphere so the lubrication system should be working, right?) “There should be oil vapor misting toward the front – thru the rear bearing wetting the crank cam gear and wetting the tappets, right? NOT”
So to test out the lubrication I held the crank case in my hand, squirted a generous amount of after run oil (ATF) into the crankcase, tilted the assembly forward and watched it slide thru the rear bearing and into the bottom of cam box area. ***?
Here’s my 2 cents. Running a prolonged time on a test stand is not a good idea. The lubrication does not move forward into the cam box area. I am thinking that the attitude of the engine during normal flight, i.e., nose down and inverted here and there, may allow enough oil to get thru the rear bearing to do its job on the crank gear and wet the cams? For now, post flight-home storage I’m going to follow the advice of applying generous amounts of after run oil and putting my plane in a nose down. Also I am thinking not just nose down, but 45 degrees down and inverted as to saturate the cams. I am thinking that I may do this at the field in between flights, too. On a typical day at the field I will get about 3 to 6 flights in. I run my engines balls out as I’m using them on a speed type plane. So I’m putting anywhere from 10 to 16 minutes of hard use, bringing the plane back into the pits, refueling and then back up in the air again poking holes thru the clouds and passing by about 115mph flat out.
IMHO the cam box is not getting enough lubrication! We all know that after running our engines we can take of the crank case cover and see the oil drip out. That’s great, but it’s not getting up front and wetting the cam! So I think I will flip my plane over 45 degrees down and make sure the cam gets wet in between flights. Especially right after she comes in the pits, the engine is plenty warm and there is plenty of oil/fuel in the case to drip forward thru the rear bearing. But not just forward, I want it to drip up and around the cam.
I ran the engine again after I cleaned the grime off the cam and tappets, squirted generous amounts of ATF in the cam box and reassembled. The noise seemed to quiet down but I’m still worried. Some of you with no problems for years I am sure you do not run your engines as hard as I do. Conclusively, I love my Saito engines and refuse to go OS 4 stroke and I can’t afford YS to try them out yet. And I don’t want to void my warrantee by putting a fitting for lube in the cam box – though that looks like a great idea just to give it a shot of lube between flights if anything, too.
Sorry so long and thanks for listening…
P.S. Interestingly Horizon doesn’t have the 2008 small engine manual posted. But here is page 16 showing propeller selections for the 115. At first I was worried she wouldn’t turn a 13x11.
Phil
Please read my post #24 in this thread. You'll have to reel back to the first page...
Dar, you are offficially crowned the "Prince of Understatement".
Bill
02-27-2009, 02:21 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
One option - You guys may want to consider something like Redline's Synthetic Assembly lube http://www.redlineoil.com/products_c...ubCategoryID=7 I've used it for years on automotive engine rebuilds. I like it better than regular Molybdenum Disulfide.
Jack
Quote from their website:
Assembly Lube
Designed to be used a lubricant to apply to potential wear surfaces before assembly in order to prevent metal contact upon startup before adequate lubrication is supplied. Provides three times greater film strength than conventional black Molybdenum Disulfide greases and will not clog oil filters. This product clings to all surfaces and is an excellent rust inhibitor, allowing the storage of parts for years. A thin film of protection is all that is required on mating parts. Red Line Assembly Lube will mix with our motor oil and can be used on all lubricated parts such as cams, followers, pistons, and bearings, and bolt threads. Use only a small amount on bearing and piston surfaces - too much can make it difficult to turn over the engine. Red Line Assembly Lube is an excellent corrosion inhibitor and can be used on machined surfaces to provide long-term corrosion protection. Do not use on exhaust bolts or other high temperature bolts which require an anti-seize.
Jack
Quote from their website:
Assembly Lube
Designed to be used a lubricant to apply to potential wear surfaces before assembly in order to prevent metal contact upon startup before adequate lubrication is supplied. Provides three times greater film strength than conventional black Molybdenum Disulfide greases and will not clog oil filters. This product clings to all surfaces and is an excellent rust inhibitor, allowing the storage of parts for years. A thin film of protection is all that is required on mating parts. Red Line Assembly Lube will mix with our motor oil and can be used on all lubricated parts such as cams, followers, pistons, and bearings, and bolt threads. Use only a small amount on bearing and piston surfaces - too much can make it difficult to turn over the engine. Red Line Assembly Lube is an excellent corrosion inhibitor and can be used on machined surfaces to provide long-term corrosion protection. Do not use on exhaust bolts or other high temperature bolts which require an anti-seize.
02-27-2009, 02:41 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
You guys need to be careful if you're pulling the cam-box cover too often. The paper gasket there sets the gear-mesh between camshaft and crankshaft. With repeated disassembly/assembly it's quite likely that the gasket will become overcompressed and cause excessive wear of the gears. It's likely that these gears are case-hardened and if the mesh is too tight, the case-hardening will be worn through with the result that they'll then wear even more quickly.
I believe it's recommended that you replace the gasket whenever you remove the top of the cambox because of this possibility.
Good to see others are picking up on my suggestion with respect to manually lubing the cambox area through injecting oil into the breather and placing the engine at a 45-degree nose-down attitude (cylinder inverted). Just make sure you turn the engine backwards by hand a few times before applying the electric starter. There is the risk that some of the oil will travel past the piston-ring and pool in the cylinder. This could cause a hydraulic lock if you don't clear it first.
I believe it's recommended that you replace the gasket whenever you remove the top of the cambox because of this possibility.
Good to see others are picking up on my suggestion with respect to manually lubing the cambox area through injecting oil into the breather and placing the engine at a 45-degree nose-down attitude (cylinder inverted). Just make sure you turn the engine backwards by hand a few times before applying the electric starter. There is the risk that some of the oil will travel past the piston-ring and pool in the cylinder. This could cause a hydraulic lock if you don't clear it first.
02-27-2009, 05:11 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
Me too. And what REALLY scares me is how is that very hard working big end con rod bearing getting sufficient lub? Blowby alone? Scarey. (quote)
Bill, I don't think you need to worry at all.
Bill, I don't think you need to worry at all.
02-27-2009, 05:32 PM
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RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
Me too. And what REALLY scares me is how is that very hard working big end con rod bearing getting sufficient lub? Blowby alone? Scarey. (quote)
Bill, I don't think you need to worry at all.
Me too. And what REALLY scares me is how is that very hard working big end con rod bearing getting sufficient lub? Blowby alone? Scarey. (quote)
Bill, I don't think you need to worry at all.
And I want a digital camera, send me that to me too.
Bill