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Saito 115 cam lubrication

Old 02-28-2009, 04:23 PM
  #151  
DarZeelon
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Dave,


May I ask that you take a couple of well focused macro photos of the camshaft, where contact occurs between the cam-lobes and the cam followers, at different cam angles... You may have to focus your camera manually for that...

It has been suggested by damaged engines I had seen and by Waco Driver's post #129, that the cam can actually ride on the bottom edges of the followers...

Can you see if this can happen in your 1.15?
Old 02-28-2009, 04:56 PM
  #152  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Dar, in the mean time here are the 17 year old lifters from my 1.50, from the wear pattern on them I don't think what Waco described is even remotely possible. The cam does not touch the edge of the lifter and would be even farther from edge on the phlanged lifters.
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Old 02-28-2009, 05:02 PM
  #153  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dar, I ran the 1.15 for a good 55 minutes to burn 16oz of fuel, mostly at 6,000 and above with some runs at 4,500 to 5,500. In the pictures, Picture #1 would show oil stretched between the rocker and top of the valve stem, some of you will come up with a fancy name for that, surface tension etc. There oil laying on the sides of the crankcase part of cam box as well as oil in the crankshaft teeth and the cam teeth, both lobes have oil that is all the way around the cam. the oil on the rubbed part of the cam puddled like water on a new oiled table top. Part of the original black grease is still visible in places. I deliberately used the WildCat 2/4 all synthetic 15% nitro/18% lube just to see if it would stick to surfaces as well as the syn/castor blend, it does. I kept the engine level frm shutdown to dismantle and some of the crankcase oil leaked out as you can see.
Darn, that's a pretty piece of engineering. Your cam drive gear looks dryer than a popcorn fart. Don't know. It sounds like you are using good oil though.

Bill
Old 02-28-2009, 07:05 PM
  #154  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Bill, that particular cam has been sprayed with Brakleen, carried around in my pocket a few times and has been in a drawer for several months.
Old 02-28-2009, 07:47 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Bill, that particular cam has been sprayed with Brakleen, carried around in my pocket a few times and has been in a drawer for several months.

OK, I give up. What's Brakleen? "Is that a camshaft in your pocket or are you glad to see me?"

Bill
Old 02-28-2009, 07:51 PM
  #156  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Bill, its a NAPA product for cleaning brake drums, rotors and model engine parts. As you can see it cleans em real good.[8D]
Old 02-28-2009, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

This may be a repeat on ALL my 4 strks OS ASP Saitos I PULL THE CAM COVER and put in some grease ditto with the valve covers then give a shot of oil into the nipple on the crankcase BEFORE STARTING a dry start (no lube) will put a lot of wear on the engine in minutes If the engine producers did this they would save a lot of warranty issues beside the headache of sending in martin
Old 02-28-2009, 08:01 PM
  #158  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

The cam followers will in due course tend towards slightly rounded edges with wear, this is acceptable.The edges do touch the cam lobes in the process of tracing the revolution of the cam lobes. As the followers are not pinned but move freely, they tend to revolve and wear is even around the edges.If however, lubrication is inadequate, they tend to stick in a single position and wear is accelerated on one plane with pronounced scuff marks and excessive wear of the crests of the cam lobes.

Most wear occurs at engine startup when the engine is not allowed to warm up slowly and oil allowed to flow.The cambox and camcase would be awfully dry.Blocking the breather tube if it is in the backplate will drive oil into the camcase - a good prelude to gunning the engine after being laid up for a spell.
The rockers depends on blowby of the valve stems and cam followers to allow oil mist to aid in lubrication.This process takes time which is why it is essential to allow sufficient time for the engine to warm up.
I've never had issues with excessive wear on my engines including the 115 which is an outstanding engine. I prefer this engine over the 125 as it has a couple of improvements.
Old 02-28-2009, 08:08 PM
  #159  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

How are doin Tog, I haven't seen you for a while.
Old 02-28-2009, 09:25 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Bill, its a NAPA product for cleaning brake drums, rotors and model engine parts. As you can see it cleans em real good.[8D]

Thanks Hobbsy. I've been shopping at NAPA for about 40 years. I'm pretty fond of lacquer thinner though.

Bill
Old 02-28-2009, 09:26 PM
  #161  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: AMB

This may be a repeat on ALL my 4 strks OS ASP Saitos I PULL THE CAM COVER and put in some grease ditto with the valve covers then give a shot of oil into the nipple on the crankcase BEFORE STARTING a dry start (no lube) will put a lot of wear on the engine in minutes If the engine producers did this they would save a lot of warranty issues beside the headache of sending in martin

Agreed.

Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 02:37 AM
  #162  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dar, in the mean time here are the 17 year old lifters from my 1.50, from the wear pattern on them I don't think what Waco described is even remotely possible. The cam does not touch the edge of the lifter and would be even farther from edge on the flanged lifters.
Dave,


The lifter on the left seems to have a circular, very shallow wear pattern on it; suggesting it has been turned by the lobe facing it.
It seems to be in good shape...

I am not so sure about the lifter on the right, though, since it seem there are too many reflection.

If it does look and feel like this, it would indicate this lifter is being held in one orientation; not rotating as the engine is running.
...But perhaps this is only light reflections from the flash...


As to the cam-lobes; the near one has an asymmetrical profile. The ramp facing to the left seems to be convex enough, to only contact the bottom of the lifter. This is the opening side of this lobe.
The right facing ramp is much straighter and I am quite sure there is potential there for edge-contact, but this is the closing ramp, so forces are not as extreme as on the opening ramp.

The further cam-lobe's ramps cannot be clearly seen, so I cannot comment about them, but that lobe seems to have more timing and a less radical peak...


This engine either could, or could not properly represent the 1.15 we are discussing, however...

Old 03-01-2009, 02:42 AM
  #163  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: DarZeelon


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Dar, in the mean time here are the 17 year old lifters from my 1.50, from the wear pattern on them I don't think what Waco described is even remotely possible. The cam does not touch the edge of the lifter and would be even farther from edge on the flanged lifters.
Dave,


The lifter on the left seems to have a circular, very shallow wear pattern on it; suggesting it has been turned by the lobe facing it.
It seems to be in good shape...

I am not so sure about the lifter on the right, though, since it seem there are too many reflection.

If it does look and feel like this, it would indicate this lifter is being held in one orientation; not rotating as the engine is running.
...But perhaps this is only light reflections from the flash...


As to the cam-lobes; the near one has an asymmetrical profile. The ramp facing to the left seems to be convex enough, to only contact the bottom of the lifter. This is the opening side of this lobe.
The right facing ramp is much straighter and I am quite sure there is potential there for edge-contact, but this is the closing ramp, so forces are not as extreme as on the opening ramp.

The further cam-lobe's ramps cannot be clearly seen, so I cannot comment about them, but that lobe seems to have more timing and a less radical peak...


This engine either could, or could not properly represent the 1.15 we are discussing, however...

All I know Dar is that if I pulled my Honda 500 single apart and the tappets and cam lobes looked like that I'd have cardiac arrest.

Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 08:59 AM
  #164  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Bill, my son in Utah ownes about 125, all Jananese, motorcycles and has several of the Honda 500 singles, their buggaboo is that the timing chain wears a hole in the front of the crankcase, the oil leaks out and rod breaks. Check the chain tensioner once in a while to make sure its working, it ain't fun when that big engine locks up and stops the rear wheel. It adds a new dimension to the word, Thumper.
If you ask my son about any particular Oriental motorcycle he can tell you its weak point and when it will, manifest itself.

Dar, that odd wear pattern on the right cam does not seem to be a problem, Jim has seen more cams than I have, maybe he can enlighten.
Old 03-01-2009, 09:43 AM
  #165  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

The series of Saito engines with the SAI5038 lifter has been the one I'm most familiar with. The one in Hobbsy's picture is a SAI120S38 lifter with the mushroom bottom which is in the big blocks.

Anyway it is almost certain that at least one of the lifters will have stopped rotating and has more or less a peaked roof style on the end. It is rare for there to be any true wear to the cam itself. Therefore any tear down of the lower end should include doing something about the lifters or cam followers.

Any reassembly should include an observation of the rocker arm adjustment screws and their positions after the valve clearance is set. An extended screw would indicate a short lifter or pushrod. The Saito 62 has too short pushrods and the adjusting screws are extended all the way down when new. An examination of the rocker arm adjusting screw cups is always necessary as there is sometimes a chip off the edge of one.

The damage in the cam actuation area can be from corrosion, lack of lubrication, or lack of too much clearance adjustment. Any of these can cause abnormal wear.

You can ruin a cam follower on a Saito by turning over a dry engine with a stuck valve by hand. In a engine that sets around with dried castor around the valve face can exert undue force on the cam follower - cam interface in some situations when the engine tries to open the valve. I don't know the solution to this other than removing valve covers and opening valves directly by hand before turning the engine over?

There are three times as many Saitos out in the world as four stroke OS engines. So we are going to see more Saito damage than OS damage. OS engines are not saints in the valve area either. They have their own problems in particular the Surpass II engines with the cadmium plating peeling off the cam lobes and going through the engine.
Old 03-01-2009, 09:56 AM
  #166  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Bill, my son in Utah ownes about 125, all Jananese, motorcycles and has several of the Honda 500 singles, their buggaboo is that the timing chain wears a hole in the front of the crankcase, the oil leaks out and rod breaks. Check the chain tensioner once in a while to make sure its working, it ain't fun when that big engine locks up and stops the rear wheel. It adds a new dimension to the word, Thumper.
If you ask my son about any particular Oriental motorcycle he can tell you its weak point and when it will, manifest itself.

Dar, that odd wear pattern on the right cam does not seem to be a problem, Jim has seen more cams than I have, maybe he can enlighten.

Hey Hobbsy, I didn't know that about the cam drive chain. Mine is properly adjusted though. It does wear like crazy. I had to remove and reposition the adjustor to get mine right. The starter is said to be junk. It is not junk, a-bit overdesigned though - Rube Goldberg would like it. Lubricate it with lithium grease once per riding season (especially the solenoid) and drill a 1/8" hole in the bottom of the starter gear housing for condensation drainage and breathing. I have a spare crank. Don't rev it over 8K and you won't have a problem. $545.00 for my used bike, $650.00 for a new crank from Honda. What would you do? If your son is running an aftermarket exhaust system change the #140 main jet up to a #143, #145 if you are real anal. The #145 is a-bit rich but the exhaust valves will love you for it. Change the front fork oil and use Mobil One synthetic ATF fluid in them, take all of the air out of the forks also. Does your son have a spare speedometer he wants to sell?

Cheers,
Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 01:29 PM
  #167  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Hobbsy Date 2/28/2009 4:56:21 PM
Dar, in the mean time here are the 17 year old lifters from my 1.50, from the wear pattern on them I don't think what Waco described is even remotely possible. The cam does not touch the edge of the lifter and would be even farther from edge on the phlanged lifters.
[img][img][/img][/img]

In the pic of the cam followers, the lower ones are those removed from the Saito 72 referred to in my post #22 on page 1. The two top followers are new parts shown for comparison purposes.

The pic of the OS 120 camshaft shows that on some engines the cam lobe ramp does contact the outer edge of the cam follower.

Unable to post pics for some reason

Waco Driver

Thanks Dar. I have been this route before but forgot the details. Incidentally I made a new cam box gasket from an envelope that miked at .006" and it works fine with no leakage. In the Saito notes Bill advised that the Saito gasket was .007". Paper is close enough.

Cheers

Don
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:14 PM
  #168  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: Waco Driver

Hobbsy Date 2/28/2009 4:56:21 PM
Dar, in the mean time here are the 17 year old lifters from my 1.50, from the wear pattern on them I don't think what Waco described is even remotely possible. The cam does not touch the edge of the lifter and would be even farther from edge on the phlanged lifters.
[img][img][/img][/img]

In the pic of the cam followers, the lower ones are those removed from the Saito 72 referred to in my post #22 on page 1. The two top followers are new parts shown for comparison purposes.

The pic of the OS 120 camshaft shows that on some engines the cam lobe ramp does contact the outer edge of the cam follower.

Unable to post pics for some reason

Waco Driver

I've got lots of time but no money. Hit me when you can.

Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 02:16 PM
  #169  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Thanks WD, maybe w8ye can help you figure out how to get pics. posted.
Old 03-01-2009, 02:53 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

Waco Driver, did you click on the 'reply' button to post your last message and to post pics? You have to reply to someone in order to get pics to post too.
Old 03-01-2009, 03:09 PM
  #171  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

I have a almost mew Saito 1.80 with less than 2 gallons of Coolpower 15% ran in it . and it just started making a funny metallic noise and when i took the engine apart. the cam area ws bone dry, and and damaged by a lack of lube. When I called Horizon. THey said the cam area has to be MANUALLY LUBED . well I checked my manual and I cant find that anywhere in the manual.
Old 03-01-2009, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: mandtra

I have a almost mew Saito 1.80 with less than 2 gallons of Coolpower 15% ran in it . and it just started making a funny metallic noise and when i took the engine apart. the cam area ws bone dry, and and damaged by a lack of lube. When I called Horizon. THey said the cam area has to be MANUALLY LUBED . well I checked my manual and I cant find that anywhere in the manual.

As modelers we have a collective issue here. Let's put our Yankee ingenuity to the task.

Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 04:37 PM
  #173  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: mandtra

I have a almost mew Saito 1.80 with less than 2 gallons of Coolpower 15% ran in it . and it just started making a funny metallic noise and when i took the engine apart. the cam area ws bone dry, and and damaged by a lack of lube.
I don't want to start a religious war but I wouldn't run any of my engines on Coolpower and expect them to last a long time, especially a Saito.

Coolpower's PAG synthetic oil has neither the highest film-strength nor the best viscosity index and its ability to hold corrosion at bay (despite the manufacturer's claims) is wishful thinking at best.

The Coolpower mantra seems to be "quantity can make up for quality" which is not true if you're only getting tiny amounts of oil through to a critical area like the cambox. If there are only trace-amounts able to reach the cam/lifter interface then you need to be sure it's the best damned oil that money can buy. And using more oil in 4-stroke fuel achieves very little as they seem to establish an equilibrium in the crankcase and once that nominal volume of oil is reached, any excess is blown out the breather. So, if the nominal level is (say) 3ml, then if you run 20% oil as opposed to 10%, all it means is that twice as much will be blown out of the engine. The actual amount of oil doing any good remains exactly the same.

Also, all Saitos benefit immensely from the use of around 2% castor in the fuel they're fed. This small amount does a great job of reducing camshaft/lifter wear and protecting against corrosion *without* causing carbon buildup on the valves or cylinder/piston-crown.

One of the benefits of castor is that it is polar and therefore tends to wet-out the metal parts of an engine more effectively than a PAG-based synth. The blend of synth and a trace of castor however, offers the best of both worlds providing the capillary action of a low-viscosity lube with the tenatious "stickiness of castor.

When I called Horizon. THey said the cam area has to be MANUALLY LUBED . well I checked my manual and I cant find that anywhere in the manual.
They are dead right but as you point out, they don't actually tell you about the need to manually lube the cambox area so therefore they are still liable for the warranty repairs.

I expect we'll see a change to Saito's engines pretty soon which will result in the breather nipple being placed on the side of the cambox itself. That'll ensure that oil is forced to where it's actually needed most.
Old 03-01-2009, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication


ORIGINAL: XJet


ORIGINAL: mandtra

I have a almost mew Saito 1.80 with less than 2 gallons of Coolpower 15% ran in it . and it just started making a funny metallic noise and when i took the engine apart. the cam area ws bone dry, and and damaged by a lack of lube.
I don't want to start a religious war but I wouldn't run any of my engines on Coolpower and expect them to last a long time, especially a Saito.

Coolpower's PAG synthetic oil has neither the highest film-strength nor the best viscosity index and its ability to hold corrosion at bay (despite the manufacturer's claims) is wishful thinking at best.

The Coolpower mantra seems to be "quantity can make up for quality" which is not true if you're only getting tiny amounts of oil through to a critical area like the cambox. If there are only trace-amounts able to reach the cam/lifter interface then you need to be sure it's the best damned oil that money can buy. And using more oil in 4-stroke fuel achieves very little as they seem to establish an equilibrium in the crankcase and once that nominal volume of oil is reached, any excess is blown out the breather. So, if the nominal level is (say) 3ml, then if you run 20% oil as opposed to 10%, all it means is that twice as much will be blown out of the engine. The actual amount of oil doing any good remains exactly the same.

Also, all Saitos benefit immensely from the use of around 2% castor in the fuel they're fed. This small amount does a great job of reducing camshaft/lifter wear and protecting against corrosion *without* causing carbon buildup on the valves or cylinder/piston-crown.

One of the benefits of castor is that it is polar and therefore tends to wet-out the metal parts of an engine more effectively than a PAG-based synth. The blend of synth and a trace of castor however, offers the best of both worlds providing the capillary action of a low-viscosity lube with the tenatious "stickiness of castor.

When I called Horizon. THey said the cam area has to be MANUALLY LUBED . well I checked my manual and I cant find that anywhere in the manual.
They are dead right but as you point out, they don't actually tell you about the need to manually lube the cambox area so therefore they are still liable for the warranty repairs.

I expect we'll see a change to Saito's engines pretty soon which will result in the breather nipple being placed on the side of the cambox itself. That'll ensure that oil is forced to where it's actually needed most.

Isn't referred to as "Crule Power" by some? Never used it.

Bill
Old 03-01-2009, 06:10 PM
  #175  
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Default RE: Saito 115 cam lubrication

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