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FAI fuel

Old 08-10-2009, 07:53 AM
  #26  
wjvail
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Add Enya engines to the list, my SS30 c/l loves FAI as does my 46-4C in fact when use a synth blended lube my Enya's generally lose 300 RPM here's a vid of the 46 with one head shim 12x6 mas on FAI...
While many engines will run fine on FAI fuel I STONGLY recommend that 20% castor fuel NOT be used on four stroke engines.

I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours working on different fuels and running model engines and one of the challenges is finding a fuel that not only runs well, but runs well for many, many hours. It's one thing to get an engine to fire up and run for a few tanks and quite another to get one to run for 100 hours. Castor in four strokes is a good example. If brownish deposit form on the comparatively warmish outside of the muffler, you should see the exhaust valve stem of some of the 4C engines I've seen run on high castor fuels. What is a brown spot on the outside of an engine muffler becomes a black rock on something as hot as the exhaust valve.

A few year back I had a friend ask me to look at an engine that he believed had broken a ring or was just worn out. It had NO compression. After removing the exhaust header the reason for the problem became clear. It looked like someone had stuffed and Oreo cookie in the exhaust plenum! There was so much charcoal on the exhaust valve it couldn't close! I ended up taking about a 3 carat rock of carbon out of an OS .91. After de-coaling, it ran fine.

It would also be a disservice to not point out that many early 4C engines were NOT tolerant of much nitro and had a propensity to throw props when run lean. I don't know exactly when the Enya .46 was produced but I don't see it in the current Enya catalog suggesting it is a little bit older. The fact that this engine runs OK on no nitro fuel may or may not mean it's a good fuel for newer engines. New OS and Saito engine respond very well to Nitro. That isn't to say they NEED nitro... only that they run better with nitro... (and a little Propylene Oxide!)

For those following this thread, it may be unwise to look at a short video of a 4C engine running on FAI fuel and decide that it would be a good idea for them to do the same.

Bill
Old 08-10-2009, 11:24 AM
  #27  
Charley
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Walther

Why I asked the question is that I mix my own fuel and I was going to give FAI a try, that is with 20% castor oil. I have some new ST ABC engines that are 20+ years old that I would run on it.
You can run a castor/synthetic blend in those STs. I hve some STs that old that hafe run fine on a blend of oils.

CR
Old 08-10-2009, 11:30 AM
  #28  
David Bathe
 
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Default RE: FAI fuel

No questions about it... Modern engines run better on modern fuels.
The exception being a Moki.
I wouldn't concider running castor on any of my engines anymore.
As stated 15% synthetic works brilliantly for me.
Old 08-10-2009, 11:30 AM
  #29  
Charley
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I agree on the de-coking. A friend once showed me a OS .48 Surpass that ran but at low power output. The exhaust port was colgged with gummy milk-chocolate colored residue. After I cleaned that out it ran fine. He had always run it on 10% nitro - 20% castor. After he switched to a castor/synthetic blend it was OK.

CR
Old 08-10-2009, 12:20 PM
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NM2K
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Charley

I agree on the de-coking. A friend once showed me a OS .48 Surpass that ran but at low power output. The exhaust port was colgged with gummy milk-chocolate colored residue. After I cleaned that out it ran fine. He had always run it on 10% nitro - 20% castor. After he switched to a castor/synthetic blend it was OK.

CR

Charley, it sounds to me like it was okay running with 20% castor oil. You just needed to clean it out periodically. This isn't uncommon with larger gas/petrol powered two-strokes either. It's just part of the process of owning and running a two-stroke engine.

Only in model airplanes do I see this obsession for running oils that leave the engines spotlessly clean internally. I haven't seen any kind of proof certifying that cleaner engines last longer than carboned up engines that are cleaned periodically. I'd rather add coke than remove metal to my engines during their operation, if you catch my drift.

Come on oil manufacturers, give us your best shot and present some data proving your side of the argument.


Ed Cregger
Old 08-10-2009, 12:25 PM
  #31  
w8ye
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I have somewhere around 30 four strokes and the exhaust valve stems get black but I've never seen any clumps of carbon in them

I have always run the 80-20 and 75-25 synthetic-castor mixes at the 16-18% total oil levels
Old 08-10-2009, 12:27 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: David Bathe

No questions about it... Modern engines run better on modern fuels.
The exception being a Moki.
I wouldn't concider running castor on any of my engines anymore.
As stated 15% synthetic works brilliantly for me.
David, what would you run in a Moki? Mine is a new 1.35[:-] ....may need to sell it..._hit[&o] Capt,n
Old 08-10-2009, 01:18 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

The straight 80/20 Castor. Have also used 5%, couldnt tell the difference (i't must do something) so if it's there I'll use it.
Have also used a Synth/castor mix... worked fine.
More Nitro just doesn't work at all.
I have a 1.35. It's very OK. They need some serious running in though. And is you don't follow the book, you can screw up the nice new engine.
Old 08-10-2009, 01:44 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: w8ye

I have somewhere around 30 four strokes and the exhaust valve stems get black but I've never seen any clumps of carbon in them

I have always run the 80-20 and 75-25 synthetic-castor mixes ast the 16-18% total oil levels
W8ye,
I allways run a little caster in fourstrokes except for YS. Castor in a YS is asking for problems. Not only the gumming up of the regulator, but mainly the exhaust valve that will get deposits and then stick. Its very expensive to fix then.[X(] Do to the path the fuel takes in a YS fourstroke, the bearings are much better taken care of.
Old 08-10-2009, 02:02 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: David Bathe

The straight 80/20 Castor. Have also used 5%, couldnt tell the difference (i't must do something) so if it's there I'll use it.
Have also used a Synth/castor mix... worked fine.
More Nitro just doesn't work at all.
I have a 1.35. It's very OK. They need some serious running in though. And is you don't follow the book, you can screw up the nice new engine.
There is another problem...I cannot find the BOOK to it! Capt,n
Old 08-10-2009, 03:02 PM
  #36  
David Bathe
 
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Default RE: FAI fuel

80/20 castor.
Old school bench run.
Nice and rich. Short prtiods.
Run one min'. Stop engine, let it completely cool down before restarting Do this x 2
Run 3min' Stop engine, let it completely cool down before restarting, do this 5 times.
Run 6 mins, Stop engine, let it completely cool down before restarting. Do this x3 and occasionally lean it briefly out by squeezing the fuel line.
What you are looking for is a decent 30-45 min (running) breaking period consisting of short runs, cooling down periods.
It's takes some hours!
After that try some extended runs for a couple of tank fulls, rich from peak and peaking it out for some seconds.
Then it's pretty well run as usually without really looking for max power etc.
It takes several gallons before it's really happy.
Take your time and you'll be rewarded.
Old 08-10-2009, 03:16 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

And PS.
Do the above at full throttle(super rich) and not at idle.
Don't bother touching or even trying to dial in the idle until you gone through the above.
As stated, old school approach. It takes time.
Old 08-10-2009, 03:18 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Would a mix of 80% alky /10% synthetic / 10% Castor work OK if I run it easy? Thanks, Capt,n[X(] Did edit..forgot the % symbols!!!
Old 08-10-2009, 04:02 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I'd do the initial "voodoo" with straight castor.
There are some very strange "metal-science-thingies" taking place during the initial runs.
Best understood by Hungarian PhD's, used to Cold War budgets.[8D]
20% Castor is part of alchemy.

After the breaking ritual one is more free to mix the oil and add 5% frogs leg to the brew.
But the longer you leave it the better.
I'b bet you're looking at least 10 gallons before the engines considered ripe.

And prop: 16x10 absolutely the best I've tried.
For everything.
Old 08-11-2009, 10:19 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Hi!
Agree with you Motorman...A typical four stroke running on no nitro!
High idle (To high for me) ! 2000 rpm is more in line with my preferences.
And not that good throttle respons! I want Instant response!
You only get this with a little nitro (5%)
Old 08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

US is the only country that makes nitro.
Most nitro is made in China. The US has less tax on it, thus it is cheaper and more popular.

The .60 and .74 Fox engines are made for 0% nitro. Some of the smaller ones may be as well, but not sure which ones.
Old 08-11-2009, 12:57 PM
  #42  
Walther
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I have been mixing 50/50 synthetic and castor, but the synthetics are very expensive and the whole idea is to keep the cost down so people will not give on there glow engines. This is why I am looking at FAI fuel as an option.
Old 08-11-2009, 04:25 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Sig shows a no nitro fuel with 50/50 castor synthetic blend at 20% total lube. And it lists for $11.99 a gallon. Iuse it all the time for break ins and whatever engine will burn it well with the right tuning.
Ifirmly believe the right tuning will give you almost the same result as adding more nitro. Not to say you can not add even more power while adding nitro and tweaking the settings but Ibelieve you will lose less than you think with the right setup.
Old 08-11-2009, 07:07 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Walther

I have been mixing 50/50 synthetic and castor, but the synthetics are very expensive and the whole idea is to keep the cost down so people will not give on there glow engines. This is why I am looking at FAI fuel as an option.
Where can you buy a quart of Castor oil cheaper than the same amout of synthetic oil? Thanks Capt,n
Old 08-12-2009, 09:48 AM
  #45  
Walther
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Default RE: FAI fuel

It seems to me that $22.99 per gal of castor is less then $44 per gal of Klotz synthitics but I was never very good at math.
Old 08-12-2009, 10:14 AM
  #46  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

It seems to me that $22.99 per gal of castor is less then $44 per gal of Klotz synthetics but I was never very good at math.
Well... To be fair... Comparing apples to apples... A gallon of Klotz synthetic is, as you mentioned, about $46.00 (ish) but a gallon of Klotz castor is about $49.00. There are cheaper castor oils but there are also cheaper synthetics.

Still, to make your point, I buy both in 55 gallon drums and castor is always cheeper.

Bill

http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail....5%5FPint&cat=8
http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail....%5FQuart&cat=8
Old 08-12-2009, 10:37 AM
  #47  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Well, that's sound like a bad move from Klotz to market their synthetics...

I'm little lost as to the purpose of this thread, is the question if one should use pure castor (with a little nitro) or pure FAI (i.e. no nitro and pure castor oil)?

Enya's two strokes certainly like all castor due to the piston/liner technology but 5% nitro can only help. I'm not so impressed by the video of the Enya 4 stroke either, not very good marketing for FAI fuel as I see it...

I have seen people trying to run their new Enya two strokes on their regular pure synthetic fuel and got useless performance, simply no compression at all. Changing to FAI fuel fixed this instantly!
Old 08-12-2009, 11:08 AM
  #48  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I'm little lost as to the purpose of this thread, is the question if one should use pure castor (with a little nitro) or pure FAI (i.e. no nitro and pure castor oil)?
The confusion you see began with the subject line and the very first post. His question was "Is there a glow engine that you can buy in the US that will run correctly on 0% nitro?" but the subject line is "FAI fuel". While there are engines that run fairly well on no nitro, and while FAI fuel does specify (by inference) 0% nitro, it also specifies exactly 20% 1st pressing castor oil. That quickly turned into the ever loved, omnipresent, castor vs synthetic discussion. The entertaining part of this discussion is not just the usual castor good/bad discussion but also forced us to ask, is 20% oil, all castor, good or bad? The pot is stirred even more when others mentioned their 4C engines like FAI fuel but I suggested that, over time, FAI fuel is a very poor choice of fuel for a modern OS/Satio type 4C engine. Some are discussing the viability of no-nitro fuel, some are discussing the value of some nitro/some castor, and some are discussion the wisdom of fuel with 20% oil - all castor - (with or without nitro) in any engine! There has been ancillary discussions of the break-in procedures for Mokis (known to run will on no-nitro fuels)* and the availability and cost of fuels and their components.

Caught up?.?.

Well, that's sound like a bad move from Klotz to market their synthetics...
How do you mean?

Bill

*To stir the pot further... I've always broken in my Moki's with 0% nitro and 10% oil, all sythetic. For normal flying, I reduce the oil to 8% all sythetic. We do agree they take some running to come into their own.
Old 08-12-2009, 11:33 AM
  #49  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Okey thanks, the topic is a little clearer then...

Castor oil is a fairly well defined product that's been around for a long time and I doubt that Klotz have developed something new and are pressing castor beans themselves or otherwise making their castor different from everyone elses. Imaging then if they would sell their castor oil for half the price of their synthetics, don't think that would help getting people to switch to synthetic oils. If on the other hand the price is the same then people might well grab the synthetic oil. It is all about marketing to me, in an ideal world I would be wrong of course and the Klotz castor would really be worth twice the price of their competitors.
Old 08-12-2009, 06:40 PM
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Walther
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I think that the Sig castor is good oil and not cheap oil that others sell!

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