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-   -   GMS Engine Tuning Problem (https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/glow-engines-114/2290854-gms-engine-tuning-problem.html)

Blade47 05-21-2006 08:23 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
1 Attachment(s)
Maiden test flight to day all went WELL .... the GMS .47 ( in the blue Cutlass) with the mods to the carb PLUS the spray bar / needle valve miked to .002 WORKS fantastic ...used a Hanger 9 super plug to keep the fire going ...all i can say is what a fine and very smooth engine.

Later

:D

RC-Captain 05-21-2006 11:20 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
is the blue cutlass a kit or arf and where can I purchase one ? Thanks.

Blade47 05-23-2006 07:25 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
The Cutlass kit was made by Global and have gone out of business ..you may find one on Ebay.

greengoose 06-05-2006 11:51 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
I had similar problems with a gms .76 also, After a few minutes into the flight it would act as if it were going from full throttle to half throttle all by itself and when I landed and taxied back you could smell that wierd smell of engine overheat. I used cool power with 5% nitro, and oh it would also eat glow plugs. to take care of the overheating problem without sacrificing power from an over rich setting ,I added 2 ounces of Castor927 hi performance 2-cycle oil to the gallon of 5% cool power and my problems were history documented on a block of ice and set out in the sun. Yaay for castor 927 made by maxima , by the way,it comes in a black plastic bottle and is available at motorcycle shops. I guess cool power isn't too cool after all is it, you would think an engine like the gms .76 would run just fine with synthetic lubricant which the manufacturer calls for or is it the quality , quantity or characteristics of it, I don't know but thats how I fixed my cool power problem because it sure wasn't a gms problem. For positive proof on this fix I have 2 gms .76's and they both had the same symptoms , one has about 6 gallons through it (bought used on ebay) and the other brand new with about 1 gallon including break in fuel through it, now both of them are running just" Ducky"............

aquaflight 07-23-2006 11:11 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
I have the Towers .46 engine and I think I see the problem. By the time you tune this engine for better transition, the low speed needle does not come fully out of the spray bar at full throttle. You have a lot of air and not enough fuel because the low speed needle won't allow it. In fact it is over riding the high speed needle making it pretty much unresponsive. There should be a gap at WOT as shown in the owners manual. I believe shortening the spray bar just a little will allow the fuel to flow and the high speed needle to do its job.

rlbrobst 07-23-2006 11:45 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
I think alot of the problems come from the metal high speed needle bracket getting hot and starting the fuel to boil before it enters the carb. You can see it in the line bubbling and boiling. OS used to have this problem as well and have switched to a composite high speed needle assy. I first noticed this problem last week with my sons plane running it in the yard to remove all the fuel from the tank. I think the non remote needle engines by GMS would solve this problem. I have stopped using the GMS engines in my planes and went to using Super Tigers and SK engines and have not had any more problems. Let me know if you notice your fuel bubbling in the lines as well.

aquaflight 07-23-2006 11:58 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
P.S. I think what I will do is get a drill bit slightly larger than the inside diameter of the spray bar and increase the inside dia. of the spray bar just at the very end (maybe 1 mm) by hand.

aquaflight 07-23-2006 12:28 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
I don't have to wait for the engine to get hot before I run into this problem. It's a choice between poor transition ... too much fuel at idle or good transition and a lean condition at WOT with a low or unresponsive high speed needle valve. At certain barometric pressures the sweet spot is impossible to hit and in any case is too small at other times.

rlbrobst 07-23-2006 01:31 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Oh. That problem. This is the exact reason that I have done away with ALL the GMS engines on my planes. I hate deadsticks and that transition problem. SK makes an excellent .50 that replaces the GMS 40's perfectly and they are really fairly reasonable in price. I think the two that I purchased from kangkeusa.com only costed me around 59 bucks each. I have had absolutely NO problems with thier engines. You might want to think about changing over engines and selling the GMS engines on Ebay. Good luck.

XJet 07-23-2006 03:16 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
I fixed a brand-new, fresh out of the box GMS47 the other day by doing this:

1. shortened the spraybar by about 0.5mm.
2. drilled the brass insert to overcome the mis-alignment problem.
3. added teflon tape to the remote needle-valve so as to kill the air-leaks.

Now it runs just fine.

Before the mods it could not be richened enough to get it 4-stroking without also richening the idle mixture to a point where it simply would not transition. As a result, the engine would die shortly after take-off, every time.

rlbrobst 07-23-2006 04:40 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Thats just tooo much work for a brand new engine. Wouldn't it just be better not to purchase any more GMS engines and purchase another brand that has no known problems. These GMS Engines are plagued with problems from what I have experienced and have read about on here.

RC-Captain 07-23-2006 04:46 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 

I fixed a brand-new, fresh out of the box GMS47 the other day by doing this
I would have sent it back to the manufacturer. I am just curious, why didn't you send it back ?

aquaflight 07-24-2006 09:59 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Well that did it. I backed out the low speed needle for some room to work with. Spent a few minutes with a nail file on the end of the spray bar. Did a back flush with some fuel to clean up. Went through the tune up procedure. Yay! Engine now has a good idle and transition to WOT with a responsive high speed needle valve. It's so easy it can be done at the field. (If you have a nail file handy)

Wayne Miller 07-25-2006 02:25 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Hi Aquaflight and XJet,

Can you post pictures of what you did?

From your descriptions, I think you:
Eliminated the airleaks (if you had any),
Drilled the brass insert at the fuel intake for better alignment (as described earlier)
And filed the spray bar a little - could you mic it and give us the new length - a picture of the measurement end point location would be good.

Thanks for taking the time to analyze the problem and do the testing.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller


aquaflight 07-26-2006 11:36 AM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Wayne; I have only dealt with the spray bar to solve this issue. (Anyone interested as to why see post #352 - Please note engine was tuned for best idle and transition first).
I first started by only taking off as much as the bevel at the end of the spray bar. This only changed the # of turns out for the idle setting (best idle and transition ) but did not solve the problem. I decided to take more off. The second time was a charm. After tuning for best idle and transition, WOT finally belonged to the high speed needle valve. The low speed needle now clears the spray bar enough to slide a piece of heavy weight paper in between. The spray bar now protrudes only 1/8". (Sorry, I don't have a mic and there was no disassembly involved as I only backed the low speed needle out of the way - but here's a pic). Cheers.

Turk1 07-26-2006 02:33 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Sorry but which one this pic belongs?Before your operation or after?I cant see any gap here.

Blade47 07-26-2006 02:37 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Some one in a early post had miked it out to .002 to .004 ... I tried this and it worked ..and this was with out filing the low speed needle or bar.

aquaflight 07-26-2006 02:47 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
After ... you can see the spray bar is shorter. You can see the gap if you zoom in ... it's just enough to slide a piece of paper in.

aquaflight 07-26-2006 02:52 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Pete
Revver Brother #93 ; So how was it done ?

Waco Driver 07-26-2006 03:10 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Hi Wayne.....On the newer of the two engines that you recently purchased from Mike, I slightly rounded off the squared end of the idle needle so that it provided less restriction to the flow of fuel. I flew it in an old trainer on no nitro fuel and it was flawless with an OS F plug. I don't think he ever ran the engine after I returned it to him.

Blade47 07-26-2006 07:41 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
This the post I was talking about.



ORIGINAL: JDW

Hi,

I recently found a totally unexpected fix to problems I was having with a GMS .47 fitted with a Tower muffler and running a 12.25 x 3.75 APC prop in a 3D model.

The problem was that, even though the engine started easily, idled reliably, transitioned OK and had reasonable power (12,000+ rpm) in horizontal flight, it would sag as if lean when vertical.
The only way to achieve sustained vertical flight was to tune it with the model vetical. This involved opening the main needle an ADDITIONAL 3 turns (i.e. 6+ turns open!!). The engine still started, idled and transitioned OK but was way down on power at full throttle (only 11,000 rpm). It also smoked like crazy when vertical but would sag and die if the needle was closed even a couple of clicks.

This looked like a fuel supply or muffler pressure problem so I did all the appropriate things (many previously mentioned in this thread).
I removed and pressure tested the tank, replaced all the fuel tubing, removed the fuel filter, stripped and cleaned the carb, drilled out the pressure nipple, sealed the carb to the crankcase, replaced the glow plug etc etc.
NONE OF THIS MADE ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER TO THE PROBLEM!

In desperation and because there was nothing else left to try, I leaned the IDLE needle 1/4 turn (despite the fact that it had already been set apparantly correctly by the pinch test method at break in and the engine idle was already slow and very reliable)

The effect was immediate and dramatic. I was able to LEAN the main needle one full turn. I leaned the idle needle another 1/4 turn and, again, was able to lean the main needle another turn. After a few more cycles of this and with some final fine-tuning I had the engine pulling 12,600 rpm horizontal and vertical, transitioning beautifully with a reliable idle at just under 1,600 rpm.

I refitted the fuel filter and even an 'undrilled' pressure nipple and went flying. In the last couple of months I logged many flights with no problems at all - I haven't had to touch either needle and the engine has never hesitated or even coughed. It is now transformed into a very powerful, reliable, user friendly, 'happy' little 2 stroke.

Remember that all I did to totally transform the FULL THROTTLE performance was to lean the IDLE needle!!!

"That's only one engine - it probably had a bit of dirt in the carb that finally moved --" I hear you say.

NOT SO - Not only is the problem reproducible on my engine if I open the idle needle a turn or so, I have also resurrected another GMS 47 (also fitted with a Tower muffler) that was discarded by anothewr club member as being too unreliable - it kept 'leaning' in flight and stopping. This engine is also now running like a clock. A third near new 47 was also improved considerably by getting the idle needle correct instead of APPARENTLY correct.

So why does the idle needle position dramatically effect the full throttle performance?

A friend (and fellow engine 'nut') and I believe we may have the answer. We think it has to do with venturi effect and fuel atomization.

If you look down the throat of the carb (in the full throttle position) you will see that the idle needle is retracted just clear of the end of the spray bar tube. In the three engines we have 'sorted' recently, the gap between the end of the needle and the end of the tube is about .002" to .003" when correctly tuned. Remember that it is poissible to get a good idle and transition with the idle needle much richer than this - i.e. a much larger gap, but this seems to result in poor and unreliable full throttle performance.

We think that this is probably because the venturi effect at the end of the spray bar tube is compromised if the gap is greater than a few thou. This, in turn, results in less fuel 'draw' which, of course, "looks' like a lack of of tank pressure. We believe it also reduces the atomization of the fuel so that the engine 'acts' lean even while it's smoking.

So, forget about drilling out pressure nipples, changing tank positions, sealing carbs etc at least for a while - It's all too hard and, on my engine at least achieved nothing. Try checking that idle needle to spray bar tube end clearance and working from there to see if that solves the problems.

Good luck,

John.

aquaflight 07-26-2006 08:54 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Sounds like a different scenario. In the case of my Towers .46 I had to richen the idle needle to get any sort of gap at WOT. With even the slightest gap at WOT it was way way to rich at idle. That's why I shortened the spray bar.

Wayne Miller 07-27-2006 01:02 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Hi Aquaflight,

Thanks for the information. If you are attending the KWFD (Kitchener Waterloo Flying Dutchmen's) scale rally the second weekend in Sept., please look me up, I'd like to talk to you about the mods.
======================================
Waco Driver,

Thanks for the information on the GMS, I'll check it out.
======================================
Sorry for not getting back to everyone sooner, but for some reason, RCU won't always let me post.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller, MAAC 6166L
Pres. KWFD.

Flyboy Dave 07-27-2006 01:11 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
1 Attachment(s)
Wayne....I like my GMS .47. :D

Yeah, I had to redrill a hole. That took 10 minutes. :eek:

That's what makes the hobby fun !!! :)

FBD.


Wayne Miller 07-27-2006 02:08 PM

RE: GMS Engine Tuning Problem
 
Hi Flyboy Dave,

Good to hear from you again. All my GMS .47's work well after drilling the intake brass insert out and then following the adjusting procedures posted much earlier. In fact most people are very surprised at how well they run, and idle, after the modification.

I agree with you, I'm a tinkerer and can't stand when something does not work and will spend hours trying to analyze the problem. to me half the fun of modelling is the challenge to make things work and the other half is associating with the great people of this hobby. There is nothing more rewarding than to get a bunch of modelers working together to solve a common problem - its great!

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller


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