Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Hi
I Just want to know... the thunder tiger engines are ABC or ABN?
Thanks
liran

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I know for sure the .46 pro is ABN

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Liran,


Thunder Tiger engines have an ABN piston+sleeve set, not an ABC set.

Despite not having the copper flash coat that OS added to their ABN engines (between the nickel and the brass of the sleeve; i.e. ABL), the Thunder Tiger is less likely to peel its sleeve.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Hi All and thanks for the fast reply.
i will like to attach an manual thats somebody sent me... in this manual the thunder tiger presented as abc.
there are 2 versions of the famous engine? [&:]
thanks
liran
P.S: Read At Intoduction: ",Abc Type Piston&Sleeve...."

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Liran,


It says "ABC type piston & cylinder" in the Introduction and "ABC type construction" in the Special Attention section.

Some would say ABC is 'Aluminium Brass Composite' which refers to the way the nickel is applied.

They could have used ABC, only if it was 'Aluminium Brass Chromium'. But they used the word 'type', i.e. similar to ABC.

This is so novice modelers like yourself will probably think it is a 'real' ABC construction.


You will be surprised when a replacement piston and sleeve set, will cost you like 70% of the price of a new engine... Why?

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Thank you :-D

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Liran,

The Thunder Tiger (Taiwan) are NOT the greatest engines on the block! I would say the Magnum XL (China) is a better made engine. You can get a traditionally RINGED GMS engine NIB .46 from Tower (China) for nothing and they SCREAM!! They are GREAT for the money! Also now that Great Planes bought the Super Tiger engine and moved the plant to China....you can buy a NIB RINGED .51 NIB for only $79.99 and they did away with the adjustable low end needle valve because people were messing with them and then would complain about the performance! This engine will take a 8 lb plane straight vertical untill you cant see her anymore!! I am partial to Webras (austria) and especially the older Italian Super Tiger G .60 ringed engines.......so many people CANT set the low end needle on the carb right, but you can do it in 4 minutes and they are BEARS! For a .46.......I would go with a Magnum XL, a dual bearing ABC engine that will tear up the OS FX all day long!! I do engines for a living and if you can get a "MAGNUM PRO" .46 then your REALLY rockin! this engine is not only a "split case" with a front and rear bearing....but it IS ringed! It has the "DYKES" ring on the top of the piston. As pressure is put at the center of the top of the piston....the "DYKES ring" (looks like a plate on the top of the piston, but IS a ring) expands to the sleeve and THAT my friend is a POWERHOUSE indeed! A DYKE'S type ring is a "L" shaped ring that fits at the very top edge of the piston. Many people can not even see it as there is no piston material above it. Dyke's rings do not feel like they are working (no compression) when the engine is turned over by hand. A dyke's type ring is pressure activated, (it is like a dyke) when pressure pushes against the inner side of the ring it is pushed out tightly to the cylinder wall. When it is running past the ports no pressure is pushing it so there is less friction. This is why dyke's rings produce more power than conventional type rings!!! Stay away from the Thunder Tiger is my advise to you! I wont call them JUNK.........but I will let you figure it out!!

The Slip!

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

The TT Pro-36 is ABC. I believe it's the only ABC motor they make all the others are ABN.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Liran,


Take a look at the Tower Hobbies web page for the TT .46Pro engine, [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKF97&P=RF]here[/link].

The tech notes say ABN, specifically.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I have one question. Why is the "ABC type" Thunder Tiger Pro 46 not as good as say a Magnum 46 with true ABC construction?

Now I know everyone will be tempted to get into the whole OS peeling linner issue again, which was(suposedly fixed now) an issue, but I have yet to see or hear of a TT peeling its liner so why is it not as good? Is it not possible that TT used an alloy, and a process that works every bit as well as Chrome without the environmental concerns? I am just currious.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

There seems to be a large disconnect regarding the Magnum engines. On this forum (RC Universe) they are considered great engines. On another forum they are considered garbage. I don't get it.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Remove the muffler and see at sleeve, brass sleeve =ABC or dark gray/blue colored sleeve=ABN.;)

Jens Eirik

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Personally I haven't had much luck with Magnums or ASP but I don't own any of their brand new stuff so I can't say how the new stuff is. I do have an ASP 1.08 that runs great once I replaced the carb. What I really want to know is why Chrome is considered better if the alloy isn't peeling.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

IXLR8,


Chromium is a much harder metal than nickel.
Its application to the brass is done by electrolysis, i.e. electroplating, which creates a stronger bond between the metals.

So the chromium is much less likely to peel than nickel is.

You can still find original Super Tigre engines, from the eighties, or maybe even the late seventies, that still have the ABC intact, after years of use. This is very unlikely with ABN.

ABN was adapted just because it reduces the total production costs (waste handling is a production cost).
The YS Nikasil like method uses nickel too, but it does not peel and provides porosity for lubrication.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Well I think you'll find that TT engines are pretty damned good -- some would say every bit a match for OS.

I've got three TT engines and they're all sweet-running, as powerful as most in their class, and very docile in handling.

As far as I'm aware, GMS don't make a 46, they make a .47 and it is ABC *NOT* ringed -- or is there a model I've missed?

Well, considering that I'm pretty sure that you're completely wrong in respect to the GMS and my experience is completely contrary to your warnings in respect to TT engines -- I'd say buying TT is a pretty safe bet.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Modelers tend to buy whatever engine is deemed successful at their field.

Some things that came out during the great "OS Peeling era", although I'm not absolutely sure if they are true:

TT uses a thicker ABN plating than OS so they didn't peel.
Magnum is one of the few true ABC's (which may no longer be true).
OS went to a different process.
Much of the peeling was due to leaned out engines using low oil content fuel.

George

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Personally, I have not found any of the "budget" engines that were not pretty good. By virtue of doing some engine testing, and receiving feedback from qualified individuals..... its pretty rare any of us find engines with fundimental problems.

There always ends up being one or two issues in any product line, but for the most part they can be fixed or overcome easily.

The ThunderTiger engines have been very good in my experience. Fairly well made, good power, well designed.

The Magnum and ASP engines are pretty good too! If anything, the problems associated with any of these engines are almost always attributed to airleaks. Poor installation and fuel system preperation, and improper break-in contributes to most of the other problems. Issue rarely have anything to do with the design or materials...... although it does sometimes have to do with the manufacturing and tolerances.

Last I checked, ASP (and probably magnum) are true chrome ABC construction. They may have changed. I know the ASP .12 .40, 46 and 61 engines I have from 10 years ago are all ABC.

The only engine of late that seems to be a bit odd is the Mag 52. And I have not tested one myself... but from what has been described to me I believe some of the issues can be worked out.

With the correct processes and materials, ABN can function as well as traditional ABC construction. Nothing wrong with it as long as you use good fuel, and take care of the engine.

Of note, the Jett engines all are either True ABC (Aluminum Brass Chrome) or AAC (Aluminum Aluminum Chrome) construction - real chrome. Nelson engines and Performance Specialties replacement liner sets are real chrome too.

Bob

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

Does chrome have any better properties as far as running, reliability, or power? Jett is one of the best and use True chrome. Magnum is one of the cheapest and uses true chrome. A clone will use the easiest, cheapest method for reproducing the original without having to invest in R&D. Maybe for them that is chrome. YS is also one of the best but they don't use chrome. Did they go with the Nikasil like method to cheapen up their products? Should we swear off YS in favor of Magnum? (I know the answer I have had some of each).

My point is if I walked into the hobby store and had to choose between a TT 46 with ABN construction or a Magnum 46 with ABC construction, should the linner really matter as much as say the power and reliability of the engine? Has any one ever had the linner peel on a TT? I think TT has suffered becasue of the OS ABN liner issue although I have yet to see any evidence of a TT problem. I am not a TT salesman or anything but they make a good engine. From what I have seen better than your average Magnum or GMS.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

IXLR8,


Chromium is stronger than nickel, bonds better to the brass, but waste treatment issues make it more expensive (these don't apply yet in China...hence the OS clones are ABC.).
The Nikasil like method YS uses is nickel, but unlike ABN it does not peal and it is superior to chromium plating in ringed engines (YS four-stroke engines are ringed).
It also costs more and I don't know of any tapered-bore engine that uses it.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I have experience machining (actually grinding) hard chrome and electroless nickel plating. Electroless nickel is actually tougher to grind and hold a tolerance with than hard chrome. Personally, I think Thundertiger engines are a very good value, but the quality of their piston-to-sleeve fit is often slightly lower than that of OS for the simple fact that Thundertiger's nickel plating is thicker. It appears that the TT engines require more finish grinding than the OS engines and this will cause issues with the roundness of the cylinder bore. Nickel also has a tendency to work harden if you push it too hard. The more you "rub" on it the harder it gets. For more information about chrome and nickel plated cylinders see my website:

http://sparkysbarn.com/motodynamo/chromenickel.htm

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I had a couple of junker Magnum 40's, bought really cheap. One had an ABC liner, the other liner was the same shiny color inside and out, so I presume it was ABN. I parted them out and put together one engine. I used the piston from one in the liner from the other (sorry, I'd have to go out to the shop and look at the discard to tell you which liner). I've given the engine three short break-in runs on the bench and got three one-flip starts. It may turn out to be a good engine.

Jim

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I dunno what your reasoning is that TT is crap but i got a TT .40 that will turn a 9x6 apc sport prop at 16500 with 200 on the pinch. It won me fast time 2 times in AMA 424 pylon racing. Everyone else running any other engine at comparable prices (<$100) have not come close. Bolt your Magnum one with a 9x6 APC on a Viper or Predator and see if you can beat me in Bowie, MD at a race. Has to be a .40 though.

For the price i think tundertiger engines are the best in there class. I have 4 of them. 3 .40 pro's and one .46 for my ultra stick 40. Everyone at my flying field keeps wanting to know what engine i have on my ultra stick too. While there engines are quiting on them, mine has never dead sticked me right out of the box.

I'm tired of hearing everyone bad mouth TT. Those people probably don't know how to set up an airplane right in the first place.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

I have heard of only one TT engine peeling its liner in all the years of its ABN production. Contrast that to OS shelling straight out of the box. And OS' denial of responsibility.

There is no doubt that TT does it right. If you want one get it, don't be afraid because of the ABN.

OS went to ABN purely to lower their cost. And increase their profit margin. An OS ABN P&L set costs twice as much as the Magnum ABC P&L set. Red China has lower costs, granted, but not that much lower. And Saito (still made in Japan) has not stopped using chrome.

I can only view OS' claim of "Environmental considerations" as so much bovine excrement.

Please note my opinions and feelings stated here do not necessarily coincide with those of RCU and its management.

Bill.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

tt 46 pros rock. best bang for the buck.

RE: Thunder Tiger: Does It ABC or ABN?
 

There's nothing wrong with ABN when it's done properly: Webra uses ABN too, and they're outstanding, long lasting engines.