ABC...wrong break in?
 

I just picked up a Bluebird N.S. 51 from eBaaaaaaa :) at a very good price but imagine my surprise when it arrived and turned out to be absolutely brand new! I took off the backplate and found two pieces of swarf about the size of dust but flushed it out anyway. There was however a LOT of swarf between the carb and housing. But the moment I realised it was new I decided to use it to find out once and for all what happens to an ABC if it's run in rich (see above about "very good price"...read "cheap"). We all know the horror stories...it'll be junked...the rod will fall to pieces...etc etc. I've never totally believed in that but I've only ever run in one ABC and that was too valuable to go experimenting with.

So onto the test stand with it. Now one thing I go along with is using a smaller than normal prop so I found a 9x6 wood. Fill the 8 ounce tank with fuel (zero nitro, 24% oil with 1/3rd being castor), give it a bit of prime and in one flick it was running. Nice. But so rich it couldn't keep running so close the needle a little. Another flick and it's running again. It sat there in a solid 4 stroke turning 11.7K with a head temp of 175F. I let it run for about 2 minutes then pulled the fuel line off...let it cool then restart (one flick again). I did 3 runs like this on the first tank and called it quits for the day (I think my neighbour was getting irritated :) ).

The pinch still felt exactly the same as before I ran it, meaning that you could feel the piston start to tighten up when the prop got to the same position as before so I removed the muffler to check the piston. There wasn't a mark on it (even using a magnifying glass), nothing to indicate that the top portion below the crown had been subjected to any torture whatsoever.

Today I ran two more tanks through it (at 3 runs per tank as before) but this time I went even richer. The first tank it ran at 10.3 K with a head temp of 160F then the second tank at 8.7K and a temp of 145F. Total time so far is a bit over 18 minutes. Once again I took off the muffler and used the magnifying glass on the piston. It still looks brand new. No signs of scuffing near the crown, the pinch still starts in the same position.

As for the rod wearing out, there's no signs of that either. The way I check is to slowly turn the prop until the piston is tight enough to lock in place then see how much movement there is at the prop tip. Any movement is the combined clearances of both ends of the rod plus any piston boss clearance. It's unchanged from new.

It's early days yet and I intend putting several more tank fulls through it before I even consider letting it 2 stroke but so far I'd have to say that not only has it not destroyed itself but I'd go so far as to say it doesn't even appear to be running in. Mythbusters anyone??? :D

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Keep us informed with this break'n story.

Only thing is... What is a Bluebird N. S. ?

Good job.

enjoy,

Jim

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Hail to "Brian the Mythbuster"....:D

I knew that "Tapered Bore break-in" was hogwash from the get go.

1. The engine expands out of the pinch in 3 seconds after starting.
2. It is not possible for an engine to "seize" back into the pinch at 80
times per second while running.
3. Most engines that have been run and are hot will not cool down enough
to return to the pinch for several minutes.
4. Control line flyer's start-up and run ABC type (ringless) engines in a
full rich four cycle for the life of the engine without mishap.
5. When a ringless engine is running, the oil between the piston and cylinder
makes the seal. There is no metal to metal contact.
6. The new ABC type (ringless) four cycle engines obviously run in a four
stroke manner for their lifetime without any problem.

I run my engines on 1/3 castor as well, there's a reason for that....heh heh. :D

Good job, downunder....keep flogging that engine for awhile.

FBD. :)

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Brian,


Excerpt from my break-in thread:

------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

This means most engines will survive unscathed, even the richest break-in.

So do you have the time and money to experiment?


Even [link=http://www.osengines.com/faq/product-faq.html#q2]OS themselves tell you[/link] not to do the break-in so rich as to four-cycle, in this engine type.

So FBD is welcome to tell Bill Baxter that his Q&A and his words in his own column are also 'hogwash'....


The one thing we all agree on is that Castor oil is essential for these engines (at least in North America).


Metal fatigue that causes failure, does not need metal-to-metal contact.
It occurs in sliding bearings in engines, as the oil film transfers pressure, causing them to fail eventually.

The piston could screech even without touching the sleeve's chromium, apparently.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

but what happens when you lean it out and heat it up?? is it going to have the same power as another engine that went through a proper break-in??

and i agree with Dar, a lot of sport engines are very loose when new and probably wouldn't suffer at all with this practice but i doubt you could get away with it on one of the really tight engines. the fact that everything went smoothly with no sudden seizures says it was loose enough not to matter...

i have had plenty of abc/abn engines change their running clearances/characteristics when playing with different fuels/props/pipes. the only one that never changes no matter what abuse it gets is the little enya.11cx with aac cylinder/piston


dave

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

It seems odd that one person's brief experiment would lead to statements like " I knew that "Tapered Bore break-in" was hogwash from the get go." Is it perhaps a bit early to declare victory? The wrong conclusion on this sort of issue could lead to hundreds of ruined engines.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Show me one chuck. Until someone does....the "procedure" is nothing more than
another Internet "old Wives Tale"....nothing more. [sm=stupid.gif]

Dave. :D

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Hi!
Did you honestly belive that running an ABC engine a little rich would destoy it...???[8D]
Nothing could be further from the truth!
You can run any two or fourtsroke as rich as you like without destroying anything.
The only thing destroying our engines is heat (running too lean, wrong compression, wrong glowplug, too much nitro) and dirt.
Nothing else!
Our engines can tolerate much... we don't have to be soo finicky about how rich we run them as long as we don't run them too lean!

Regards!
Jan Karlsson
Sweden

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Hi guys,
IMO the most logical break in process for an ABC/ABN engine is as Dar Zeelon has described in his "tappered bore break in" column[sm=thumbup.gif]. Not every ABC/ABN engine will get destroyed immidiately by fourstroking but the high output tight engines will probably do if fourstroking and running cold for a long time. My friend just bought a new OS46FX and he turned it over the TDC just by rotating the propwasher[sm=thumbdown.gif]. So I dont think his engine needs a break in (to loose to begin with). Good luck.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

I have seen a Webra .50GT (ABN) get destroyed (peeled the nickel) after the third tank four-stroking. The only Webra I have seen do this... They are generally pretty loose.

It happened at the hands of someone I was trying to convince to lean it out a little... He was reluctant to.
It was luckily replaced under warranty.

The replacement was broken-in was under my supervision and it was uneventful.
This engine is still running strong, with nearly 50 hour logged.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

I'm in the DarZeelon camp on this one. His documented procedure works, I use it and have never had a problem with Irvine, ASP, SC, TT or Magnum engines by following it. When downunder's procedure has been 'proved', and this could take years testing on all/most of the ABC brand name engines, I may change my judgment. Untill then.......................

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

All I ever see at the flying field is the "Give Her Hell" attitude.

The guy brings a brand new engine out to the field.

He starts it up.

Leans it out to the last breath of rpm.

Puts it up in the air.

Then complains about the "no good" engine because it quit on him at the top of the first loop.

Cannot tell them a thing.

Enjoy,

Jim

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Show me conclusive proof that ignoring the recommendations of engine manufacturers and people with a huge amount of experience does not damage engines. Such proof would be controlled testing of a significant number of engines over a long period. One person's limited testing (9 total runs) on a cheap engine proves nothing other than he has time and money to throw away. Until such conclusive testing is done, I personally think it's wise to follow the voices of experience, and of the people who made the engines.

Besides, what's the point of trying to prove the manufacturer wrong in this case? Other than sticking to tradition (engines must be broken in sloppy rich) what's the goal? Experience, and experimentation by engine manufacturers and others, has shown that it's not necessary, and harmful to the engine. I can't see the value in trying to prove them wrong, or jumping on the bandwagon of someone who's advocating ignoring them.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

He's not talking about a little rich, he's talking about running it sloppy rich. There is a difference.
Jan, why don't you put your engines where your mouth is? Take a sample of let's say 2,000 ABC engines of various sizes and manufacturers. Mount these engines on test stands. Put each of them through a similar number of runs that the average sport engine would go through, perhaps 5,000 each. Oh, and while you're at it, why don't you use some of the 10% oil fuel you so strongly advocate? Run 1/2 of them sloppy rich as the OP proposed, and with your fuel. Follow the engine manufacturer's recommendations for the other half. When you're finished, report the results here. If the sloppy rich procedure you've so enthusiastically endorsed works better than that recommended by the manufacturers people might listen. Until then, I'm sticking with the opinions of those who know what they are doing.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

piper_chuck....you're missing the point. I/we are not advocating running the
engines sloppy rich....I/we never did. I/we are saying that doing so might
waste some fuel and prolong the break-in by not allowing the engine to
reach maximum operating temperature....however, it will not harm the
engine running it very, or sloppy rich.

No one will argue that running the engine at a rich two cycle is not proper.
We are saying that....in fact I/we agree wholeheartedly.... that is a good
procedure. Not one manufacturer has said that running an engine sloppy rich
will hurt it....ever. Not that it matters, but the reference to the OS FAQ's
was in reference to ABN engines. :eek:

If that were the case, there would be no such thing as running a ringless control
line engine....they would have all been destroyed "by the reckless operators"....

...."that didn't know what they were doing". :eek:

And of course the new ringless four-strokes would be doomed to failure as well.

BTW....I chunked an OS nickel liner. It wasn't because the engine had run too rich.
It wasn't because the engine had been run too lean. It wasn't because the engine
had been run just right....it wasn't because the engine didn't have the right lubrication.
It wasn't because the engine was operated improperly.

It was because the liner plating was defective, and failed.

FBD.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Very interesting, I'm going to ride on PiperChucks coat tails on this one. The manufacturer has already proved what downunder is trying to prove and beleive me it probably cost them allot less money to prove how to break in ABC engines. I just got a MagnumXL .28ARNV (ABC& Ringed. The first thing I noticed was it comes with a 2 year warranty.

Now lets say I use downunders advice to break this engine in and damage occurs with in the 2 years , should my warranty cover the damage ?

The point is, if you are one of the people ignoring the manufacturers advice on maintaining your engine then please don't send back any damage parts to the manufacturers do your own methods of breaking in the engine, subsequently driving up the cost of engines,do to excessive returns, for the honest people who follow the directions.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

A fair question but one which I thought I'd covered in my first post. I wanted to find out for myself what happens if an ABC is "abused" in this way rather than just following the sheep. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with engines so the hot and lean, rev the guts method of breaking in never seemed right to me (as in being the ONLY way to do it). Nor did the oh so familiar cry that even a short rich run on a new ABC would cause irreparable damage. I like to experiment within the limits of what I think is safe. I won't experiment with using 10% oil but I will (and have) experimented with adding water to fuel to find the limits.

So I'm simply experimenting to find out something for myself, I don't expect anyone to change their own methods of running in an ABC. As for whether my particular engine is "loose" or not...define "loose". That comment prompted me to check something a little more accurately though. I mounted a degree wheel in front of the prop and with the plug out I turned the prop until I could feel the piston bind in the taper. It bound up at 45 degrees BTDC (and this is after 18 minutes of sloppy rich running) so this is one thing I'll continue to check after further runs because it'll be a very good indication of whether or not the piston is wearing excessively.

Jim, I've got no idea what a Bluebird N.S. 51 is except it looks like this :)

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Looks like it may be of the Kange, Tiger Shark, SK, Lincoln, V Mar and whatever family?

Enjoy,

Jim

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

RC-FIEND....

....you are missing the point. Downunder is not trying to break-in his engine.
He is purposely running the engine excessively rich to disspell the "sky is
falling crowd's notion" that running a new ABC engine in a "four stroke mode"
will cause engine failure.

This theory or contention is patently false, plain and simple....

....or as I call it...."hogwash".

FBD. :D

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

Read the following page:
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/breakin/breakin_abc.htm

The manual for the Tower .75 talks about possible damage if the wrong fuel mixture is used and the engine can't come up to the right temperature.

The manual that came with my Webra (ABC) under break in says the following: "Allow the motor to warm up to full operating temperature, otherwise it may suffer premature wear..."

I'm sure I could locate more, but hopefully you get the message that yes indeed manufacturers do say ABC engines should not be run sloppy rich, because it prevents them from reaching proper operating temperatures, and that it could lead to damage.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

:) I completely understand he is trying to prove a point about if an engine can be broken in horribly rich or rich period. But if I was a newbie to glow engines and wanted to fly with a new engine right out of the box Downunders advice would be the way to go. So my point is , do as you will but don't spoil the bunch of apples(engine purchasers) with mis-information, like Chuck said, by posting it is proved not to follow the manufacturers methods of breaking in any given engine.

Personally I want to know what the end result is , and if it doesn't hurt the engine I may even go with it, but if I do I know , being as honest as I am , to rip up the warranty . ;)

PS if you have ever owned a new car or knew someone who did , going over 50 Mph before 500-1000 miles will seize the engine up , and I mean fast ! This is just another manufacturers recommendation.


Good Luck.

bold print added

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

No, he's trying to break it :D
And his 9 runs have proven what? One experiment on one cheap engine. I think I'll follow the directions on my engines.

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

And to add to Chucks examples, The sleeve has to expand in order for the piston to move freely with out and friction. So metal expands when hot , if you run it too rich it will never expand to the correct size to prevent the un-wanted friction.



Good Luck ;)

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

That's nice, but when "following the sheep" works, and is recommended by many experts, perhaps it's not such a bad thing.
Perhaps the reason it didn't seem right is because it ISN'T RIGHT. NOBODY says ABC engines should be broken in "hot and lean". Everything I've read talks about running them rich, but not sloppy rich.
Unfortunately, posting the experiment may lead less experienced people to ignore the directions that came with their engines. It would be unfortunate if someone reads this thread, decides to do things the old way (sloppy rich), and proves the experts right.
I hope you don't. The 10% oil comment was directed at Jan. He's elected himself as the spokesperson for the entire Europe while trying to convince those of us in the US that we're fools for using castor oil and running more than 15% oil.
I'm in the middle of breaking in an old, but never before run, K&B 3.5 cc ABC engine. I've never encountered an engine as tight as this is. Fortunately, it's going to be worth it. I've only put about 6 tanks through it, but it's already screaming, even though it's still being run rich (but not sloppily so).

RE: ABC...wrong break in?
 

chuck....nice try....:D

Maybe you didn't read far enough down the page before you jumped to
your conclusion.
__________________________________________________ ________________

From the Text:

FOUR CYCLING or SLIGHTLY RICH running is a rich type setting, but it is fast
enough to pull the airplane. This is the setting you normally look for before
launching the airplane because the engine will run leaner when airborne.
__________________________________________________ _________

How would you interpret this chuck ?

"This is the setting you normally look for before launching the airplane."

This is what we are talking about, chuck....four cycling. It appears to me, the
man says four cycling is a "normal setting".

How would you interperet that chuck ?

Dave. :D