comments Fox engines
 

Without going into a discussion of price dumping and other Japanese trade practices that really anger me, let it surfice to say I'd rather buy American product when it is of compareable quailty even if it costs a little more. PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR COMMENTS PRO OR CON ABOUT FOX GLOW ENGINES.
Thanks, Ken

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ken I agree with you. I bought Fox Eagle engines for years. the 60 and .74 specifically until I began to have runability issues.

I went through 3 new .74's and found that I had to have a special machined button plug, fuel etc to get it to run. Then when I had it running on top end with good idle it would not transition smoothly. I finally gave up on Fox because I don't want to buy an engine that needs special parts not included with a new engine to make them run. MY opinion is that it should run out of the box and if I want to hop it up then the special parts/mufflers etc are my expense. But if it won't run out of the box as advertised I won't buy it. My experience is the Fox people are nice people but I have to call them too often to make the engines run so I buy Saito's and they run out of the box. Jim

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ken:

I also prefer to buy from the domestic market. But I will not buy a Fox engine. Many reasons I wont go into. I still buy K&B and Cox, pleased with both.

I will buy a Jap product only when there is no reasonable alternative. For a hotter two stroke than K&B I go for the Magnum. Actually better than OS having the ABC piston and liner, and a lot less expensive.

But Magnum four strokes "Aren't there" yet, so there is no reasonable alternative to the Saito engines.

Bill.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

My comments would be all pro where Fox engines are concerned but I have not had these issues, I believe that all current Fox' have the head button mods. I am also an enthusiastic Saito user.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

At one time I owned 4 Fox Eagle lV, .74 engines, and I absolutely loved them, and still do.
User friendly, long stroke, high torque, not polished like an OS, but they ran forever. No "Special parts" were ever needed, and I never had to send them back to the factory, whose service I understand is outstanding. Still have one in a GP Shoestring, and it sings.

I understand that they had some early on carburetor problems, but that was solved with the Eagle lV series.

Made in America, oustanding service, and they run great !

> Jim

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Although I have more Saito than any other brand and no longer have any Fox's, I have followed the comments on them for the last 7 years or so.

One person can have one of the 74's and it will be the best engine you've ever seen right from the factory. You can go out and buy one for yourself and chances are there's no way to make it run right without completely re-engineering it. Especially those made in the very early 90's.

They did a lot of damage to themselves back then. Here in town a guy has a beautiful little stinker with a Eagle in it. He doesn't know much about engines but he knows the plane is prettier in the ceiling than it is to try to get the old Fox running. Someone gave him the plane about 5 years ago. It looks unused.

All the foxes I ever owned in the last 55 years have always been perfect but they were in the 15, 25, 29, 35, & 40 sizes.

Enjoy,

Jim

RE: comments Fox engines
 

I like Fox motors, in particular the smaller displacements such as the .15BB, the .25BB and the .40 (bushed or BB with the lapped iron piston).

I've owned Fox motors for nearly 30 years, and haven't always had great success, but with experience comes understanding and many of the problems I had way back when turned out to be self-induced, and not a fault of the product.

Duke Fox was quite an innovator. He was amongst the first to use Schneurle porting in a model engine, and pioneered the use of nitromethane as a fuel additive. Duke was also a tinkerer and had no qualms about "trying something" right in the middle of a production run of motors. Sometimes it worked...sometimes it didn't and this is what may have caused Fox to get a certain "rep" out there in the field.

The current breed of Foxes are of stable design. They're not monkeying with them much. They tend to run extremely well, last an eternity and should parts be needed, they're usually quite easy to get.

Lastly, I get a certain sense of satisfaction from thoroughly enjoying season after season of trouble free flying with a motor that so many would tell me "doesn't run".

I've bought plenty of Foxes, and I'll buy more in the future.

'Race

RE: comments Fox engines
 

We had a saying at our field. If it's a fox, keep it in the box. There was one or two guys that used them and loved them and would tell you all you had to do was this that and the other thing then you'd have a great running engine. I'm just not into sanding and polishing needle valves though.

One funny story. This guy battled all day to try and get his Fox going. At the end of the day he ripped the engine and the firewall off of his plane and chucked them into the woods. He turned and said, "That's it, I'm going home."


I think these USA engine builders needed to give up on economical engines and just turn out super high quality top of the line engines. So you could get a $50 import .40 engine or a top of the line $550.00 .40 size engine made in the USA. Like Nelson's but with sport engines and with more fluff like gold inlays and mahogany boxes with red velvet. All top of the line parts too. You know there is cheap ball bareings, middle of the road good ball bareings and super top of the line ball bearings. Well since we are building top of the line enignes we'd use the top of the line parts. Next thing would be that we would have to buy these engines. Now do you want to get the $50 OS or the $550 K&B 40 size engine?

Last thing is Japan is getting a taste of their own medicine from China with all the Chinese copies of Japanese engines. Payback is hell.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

If you wnat american... go to the MEcoa site (you can even trade in some fo your overseas engines!!) and get a K&B or MEcoa engine

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Patrick,

Some of the MECOA engines are imported unless they have changed. It depends on size.

George

RE: comments Fox engines
 

The present MECOA engines are made in Taiwan by LEO. At one time I think they were made in Austria as well as the USA. Most of the Megatek engines are also LEO. Just Engines also sells LEOs.

Enjoy,

Jim

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ok I have my first Fox, just got it a couple of months ago its a 50 ringed (yes they made it up for me) It Has a Davis diesel head
runs like a top, a carb that works VERY well and an air bleed at that-- simple--Plus you can send back almost any old fox and they will rebuild PLUS they take trades -so MECOA is not the only one--and made in USA lets keep some of the $ here martin

RE: comments Fox engines
 

I've owned a bunch of Fox engines in my lifetime. I just bought an old seventies Eagle .60 crossflow from a gentlelady on eBay. I flew one of those quite a bit in the late seventies through early eighties. Not a screamer, but wouldn't slow down while performing huge loops with a 7.5 lbs. Kaos. My first Super Poxy paint job. Gobs of weight! I shoulda used a finer roller. <G>

I did buy a then new Fox Eagle .74 IV in the early nineties. I bench ran the dickens out of it to the point where it should have been broken-in well enough to fly reliably. I'd get a couple of minutes in the air and she would quit. Checked the fuel tank for vibration induced bubbles, but found nothing. I heard later that they needed a head button change to run right. Traded the engine/Hobbistar 60 combo for my old Phoenix 8 and Webra Speed .60 that a friend had bought from me before I got around to upgrading the Fox's button.

The only Fox engine that I had a reptitive problem with was their Bushing .19. In 79, or so, I put together a M.E.N. Trainer and put a brand new Fox .19 on it. Within a month or two of starting to fly, the connecting rod egged out on the wrist pin end. I went through four or five connecting rods over a couple of years. Looking back, I suspect that the problem was the synthetic oil based club purchased fuel that we were running. Lots of the club's plain bearing engines were having problems with that fuel. Still, for as little as the rods cost and as little trouble as they were to replace, I just kept on flying and replacing. It ran great in every other respect. I also had the same problem with K&B .40's back then. Same reason, I suppose.

I'm jealous of your Fox .50 DDD Conversion, DieselDan.

Ed Cregger

RE: comments Fox engines
 

My first (and last) r/c engine was a Fox .35 r/c. What a plie of junk, I couldn't
get rid of it fast enough. I traded it for a new K&B .61 that was missing the
carb....I put an OS 7B carb on it, it fit perfectly. That carb is off the OS .60 FSR.

I went from the worst engine at the field, to the best running engine at the field.
I fell in love with the K&B's, and went on to the OS FSR's, and a couple S.T.'s.
With the exception of one .46 S.T., I ran nothing but .60's for 20 years. ;)

I know some of the Fellas like the Foxes, but if you gave me a brand new one
thers's no way I would put it in a plane.

A few years ago, a fella showed up with a big Cessna twin, a 310. Two years
building time....his family and friends came to see the plane fly, about 10 people.
He had two Fox .74's in it....I cringed.

I helped him get it going....he was a full scale pilot. The thing was a dog, but after
a real long runout, it actually took off....I didn't think it would. He made a gradual turn
with about 100 feet alt. and sure enough....one of the engine quits....KABOOM !!

To this day I feel sorry for the Guy....two years work down the drain with those
junk engines. I would of had two 1.08 FSR's in it, for sure. :eek:

When I first started out in control line, I would see Guys come out and spend a
couple hours trying to get a Fox .35 running....without sucess. I could start my
K&B Stallions with just a few flips. I felt sorry for those Guys too.

Those Fox engines looked like they were carved out with a stone axe. The
workmanship looked like a Junior High School kid cast the darned thing in
metal shop. Sorry....I'm just not a "Fox man". :eek:

Dave. [:o]

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Too bad you didn't stop by the Luke AFB Fire Department for a little Combat. One fellow brought his best OS .35 combat engine, having recently returned from TDY in Japan. He didn't know the virtues of the Fox .36X combat special that was bolted to my CGM Voodoo. I still grin when I think of it. That was in 1966.

Duke Fox liked building engines, er - excuse me, "motors" - for control line models. That is where he shined. For a short while, his engines were tops in several categories. We all know that no manufacturer holds such a position perpetually. It just doesn't work that way.

I suspect that he was one of the first manufacturers to stumble upon flash lubrication, or, what is known today as plasma lubrication. That is why he loved castor oil so much. The varnish inside of the engines was a necessary ingredient for his motors to run properly. If you didn't build up a good coating of carmelized castor goo, his engines didn't run worth a hoot.

I grew up having to tinker with engines just to get them to run. It became second nature to me. Duke seemed to depend upon his customer base being educated in such a fashion. The instant gratification types are usually the ones that did not appreciate his efforts. Different strokes...

Junk, they were not. They needed TLC and special care, comparable to a Jett .46 or .50 of a few years ago (my last exposure to Dub's fine engines). Give one of those to a newbie and see how he/she makes out. Jett engines of a few years ago required special handling. Certainly, Jett engines are not junk. For the same reasons, Dukes engines were not junk either, and they were surely not as easy to handle as an OS. Few brands of engines are.

With the education I obtained from piecing together broken up Christmas gift RTF engines in my youth, and later learning to accomodate Duke's efforts, I have little to zero trouble handling the early Chinese imports right up to their efforts today. Others threw away the early ASPs. I fly them with nary a problem.

Ed Cregger

RE: comments Fox engines
 

This my latest Fox .50 that I rebuilt in February including Boca Ceramic bearings. The prop is a Graupner 10x6, I have no clue how I ended up with a brown Graupner. It turns it at 14,140 on 5% Fox fuel. It now wears a Diesel head like Martins does.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ed Cregger Said:


"I grew up having to tinker with engines just to get them to run. It became second nature to me. Duke seemed to depend upon his customer base being educated in such a fashion. The instant gratification types are usually the ones that did not appreciate his efforts. Different strokes...

Junk, they were not. They needed TLC and special care, comparable to a Jett .46 or .50 of a few years ago (my last exposure to Dub's fine engines). Give one of those to a newbie and see how he/she makes out. Jett engines of a few years ago required special handling. Certainly, Jett engines are not junk. For the same reasons, Dukes engines were not junk either, and they were surely not as easy to handle as an OS. Few brands of engines are. "


Nicely stated Ed. Well done!

'Race

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ed and 'Race:

Duke put out some real trash too. Let me tell you about the "29R" fiasco. This was the one we called the "Bathtub" engine - the front intake port was about 3/8" wide, but near an inch long front to back. Looked like a small bathtub with its rounded front and rear ends and straight sides. It was also very shallow, to the degree that with the fuel jet pointed straight in you lost as much fuel to blow back as you got in the engine. From the start the 29R had to have twice as big a tank or bladder as the Torpedo 29GH for equal run times.

It was very heavy, the roughest sand casting you could imagine. Double ball bearings on the crank, steel sleeve with a meehanite iron piston.

Duke guaranteed it to be the hottest 29 on the market. Guaranteed? Yes. He said if you had a hotter engine send it to him, he'd run it. If yours was hotter he'd (whateverthehellitwasIdon'tremember, but something fantastic) for you.

A local (Wichita Falls, Texas) sent him a well used Torpedo 29GH that was still a lot faster than the 29R to take him up on the guarantee. It came back looking like someone had filled it with sand and then tried to run it - Ol' duke said he couldn't get it started. It was truly a piece of junk when it came back from Fox. This is typical of the way Duke did things.

Duke finally admitted his 29R was no good, and released the 29X engine. The 29X was a fast engine, and it owned B speed for a while. It was a plain bearing engine as was the Torpedo GH29. When you lapped the case big enough for the crank to spin freely and be at the top of B speed though, it was so loose that you only had about ten minutes running time before it too was junk.

So there was the 29R that wouldn't go no matter what you did, and the 29X that would go like the hammers, it just wouldn't go very long.

On another Fox - ask Bill Werwage how many Fox 35 stunt engines he had break the crank shaft. Ask me how long the Fox 40 would run in a rat racer before it broke the crank too.

Some day I might buy another Fox. But it will be a while yet.

Bill.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Seems like I've gotten something started here! Let me tell y'all where I'm coming from on this. I'm an outboard mechanic by trade and get very tired of people who don't work on engines for a living telling me "Yamaha is the best". Yes there is some Japanese product out there that is top quality ( usually coppied from an American design ) but I see far less 1980's and early 90's vintage Japanese engines still running than I do American product. I've also found quite a few serious design flaws in the more recent fuel injected product from Japanese manufactureers. Finally on this subject I'll go out on a limb and say that the japanese use the quality of their aluminum alloy and stainless steel as a planned obsolesance factor, which I consider "dirty pool".
Now back to glow engines YES I WOULD RATHER BUY AMERICAN but I have heard negative feedback on Fox,so I'm asking what you more experienced pilots think primarally about the 20 & 40 size engines AND WHAT IF ANY AMERICAN BUILT ALTERATIVES ARE AVAILABLE?

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Nice post on the buy-american approach.

Duke Fox was a real pioneer in model aviation. Many of his inovations are still around today. Dub learned a great deal of what he knows today of engine design from Fox. I too started out years ago flying Fox engines in control line. Good products.

Fox's drawbacks came mainly due to the r/c carb designs. The ole Fox .76 was a real good engine... once you swapped out the carb for ANY other carb :) I even played with the Eagle II and Eagle III engines for a while for pattern. They were about 90% where the needed to be. That final 10% of messing around made them undesireable.

Some of the newer engines coming from the Fox factory are not too bad. They do require some attention to detail, and proper break-in.

The Jett products available today are all made in Texas, USA. Engines are very user friendly, super throttle response, and available in many sizes - any of which can be taylored toward any aspect of our sport (scale, aerobatics, 3d, racing, fun fly, CL, FF, etc). Every engine is run before you receive it. No modifications or tweeks required - just some break-in time as instructed. They do cost a bit more ........ anything made in the USA will. (IRS, EPA, INS, DOD, DHS .... lots of alphabet people to satisfy along the way - adds costs). But as I like to put it, there is much more to the value of an engine (or anything you buy) than just its price.

Bob

RE: comments Fox engines
 

I certainly wouldn't disagree that Duke put out a few doozies in his day. So has O.S. from what I can tell.

I don't have the familiarity with the C/L motor lineage, but again...Fox was an innovator rather than a scientist. He did things his own way, and if it worked fine. If not, he'd do something different later. Such was the modeling industry.

As I stated in an earlier post, all has not been roses with my Fox experiences. The TN carbs found on the 70's vintage foxes could bring a man to his knees. They actually worked fine, but you had to know how to set them, and if you were plying your "other" carb knowledge to them...you were doomed.

(These carbs were adjusted in reverse order. ie: LS first, then HS. To do otherwise was futile)

Of course this was in the instructions, but nobody reads those.

A few of my earliest Fox motors were the .25 and the .36. (FBD: Fox never made a .35R/C)

Neither were bad motors at all, but in the hands of a know-everything kid? Forget it.

A few mentions have been made of the early 90's vintage Eagle's (.60 & .74). These motors could drive a man to drink, and it was
because Duke was then experimenting with getting maximum performance from no-nitro fuels, while selling the motors to guys using 10-15-20% nitro. (The instructions didn't discourage it if I recall). Well...a highly compressed motor with that much nitro is going to come to grief....and they did. The infamous head button mod solved this, and these motors are manufactured accordingly today.

One could go on and on, but I won't.

You learned a lot dealing with these and other motors along the way, and the dividends were paid in the form of great successes later in your modeling career. Today's products are wonderfully engineered, and play well right out of the box. Unfortunately, most don't learn anything from them either.


Go fly!

'Race

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Ken:

Your initial question was on Fox, so the answers have been about Fox.

Now you've opened it up to all domestics, and that's a different ball game. All the engines from MECoA, except the MECoA branded ones, are domestic production now. The HB and HP were originally European, I think all the rest started as American.

K&B engines are now made by RJL/MECoA also. Any one of them will give good service, my favorites are the ringed 40 and the ringed 61. One or the other will do very well in any average size sport plane. Just about bulletproof, given reasonable care your grand children will still be able to fly the used one you get today. Buy a new one your great grand children will be flying it along with the one you bought used. Highly recommended.

Bill.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Hey Capten...

You're in a bind where buying an American Made motor is concerned. Fox, K&B, Jett & Nelson are about it.

You're looking for a smaller motor anyway if I'm not mistaken, so why not just drop the $65.00 for a Fox .25BB from
Tower? Forget the "he said, she said" stuff and buy the Fox. You won't be sorry.

'Race



PS: This lack of choice in American Made products is precisely what we, the consumer have asked for. We wear shirts made in Pakistan, pants made in Honduras, drive a car made in Mexico, and then get on a computer made in Taiwan to complain about the
lack of American made goods. Interesting isn't it?

RE: comments Fox engines
 

Fox normally has excellent repair service when you send them an engine, a friend of mine had a Fox Eagle .60, the one with the weird three piece crankcase and it gave him fits for a long time. He sent it back to Fox at least twice maybe more, each time they put a new sleeve and piston in it and said it was fine and each time it didn't seem to have much power. I said send it to me and I'll look at it. I pulled the carb off of it to try one of the newer airbleed carbs and guess what. It had a reverse rotation crank in it. It's amazing that no Fox tech picked up on that. Anyway, I had a couple of extra .74 cranks that would not fit the Eagle crankcase, I put all his top end stuff on an extra crankcase and extra .74 crankshaft I had and he had a workable engine.

RE: comments Fox engines
 

I had a reputation as being someone that could make a Fox engine run, if nothing more. One day, in the early nineties, one of my buddies brought over a guest flyer carrying his airplane. We were at the club field. I was told that no matter what they did, they couldn't get the engine to run over such and such rpm. It was low. Way too low. The engine had excellent compression. The carb was clear and set as well as you could set it. The fuel was okay. Plug okay. No leaks. No obstructions. Right prop. We were all scratching our heads. I commented that the engine was running as though the ports were backwards. Had he reversed the sleeve by accident? Nope. Checked that. Later that evening, while at home, it dawned on me that the engine was running as though it had a reverse rotation crankshaft in it. I didn't know the fellows name or where he lived, so I couldn't contact him. I'll bet that was the problem.

Ed Cregger