Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I was reading another thread about an engine starting up backwards when using a chicken stick..... This is 2002.... why would anybody use a "stick" to start an engine anyway? A good electric starter only cost $20 bucks and IMHO is a lot safer! And I have never had an engine start up backwards while using one either. Come on fellows...break down and buy a cheap electric starter and move on into the new era. Any comments on this?
Danny Mercer
Rome, Ga.

:spinnyeye

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I use the "prop flick backwards against compression" method to start my engines.

The only time I use my electric starter now is when I fly heli or when I get a balky engine and there's a time limit on starting at a contest/show.

Electric starters can kill a good engine if used incorrectly. :(

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Most of us already have one, by now. It's not the cost, generally.
It's a horrible thing to do to our little engines, I believe, but I have to admit it is safer.
I still hand prop all my stuff... I pull out the starter only when absolutely necessary.
(Which is generally never on my OS engines, and 25% of the time on the others)

Starting
 

Once you develope the knack, engines can be started quite safely with a simple back flip even without a chicken stick. Big Saitos can be started with a quick back flip from the tip of the spinner. After priming of course.

I don't use a starter either
 

As someone else stated, once you get to know these little guys, they're fairly predictable. The only thing I use a starter for is to get the oil distributed after the flying is over for the day. I pull the plug, shoot a generous amount of oil in the venturi (2 strokes) and hit it with the starter. VRRrrooooommmm :eek:

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I use an electric starter on my glow engines (1.2) and stick on my gas (2.4). I never touch the propeller with my hand!

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Large 4-stroke engines like to be started w/ a back-flip via chicken stick. In fact, when these large 4-stroke engine is a little over-primed, it is hard to start it w/ electric starter; in fact, it may kick back and throw off the starter, and starter drive cone will damage the spinner. On other hand, when the engine is hot, electric starter is the only thing that will start the engine. So I have both the stick and starter. The starter is most useful to me at the end of flying day when I have to run the fuel dry in the engine: this is when the electric starter is advantageous.

Also, I spend a lot of money on these large aluminum spinners. I hate to mess them up unnecesarrily w/ electric starter unless I really have to.

So, depending on what engine you have, use the stick or starter appropriately. But never turn a prop w/ bare finger when the glow battery is on. The kick-back is just not worth it.

Old C/L Combat flyer
 

I learned how to start engines by hand in my control line combat days. When the judge counted down to .00 you started the engine in one flip and were in the air in one second. If it took you two flips you were already behind in points.


These days I use a heavy glove to start the engine. Don't like to carry around the starter and battery. Also I just hate to put a Tru-Turn spinner on the plane and then booger it up jammin' a starter into it.

You will find most accidents happen when flyers stick they're fingers into the prop AFTER the engine is started.

By the way I got very good at it after getting whacked numerous times. Sort of like getting whacked by a nun for poor penmanship.


For those just starting out in the hobby get a starter.
Experience is usually gained from pain or money spent!!!

SINISTER
 

Man, that brings back memories! Worse if you were left handed like I am :stupid: The latin word for left is "Sinister" and man did you get wacked if you were a southpaw :eek:

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

i'm used to doing the starter on smaller 2 strokes.. now I have a 4 stroke and would prefer to hand start it .. so

stating that , you are turning the prop CLOCKWISE until you feel the piston at TDC, then, I guess nudge or flip it in that direction, and let the compression force it in the correct counter-clockwise direction ? I'm just wanting to understand exactly how you're doing that..

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Use a starter, a chichen stick, flip the sninner, use your fingers, flip forwards and bounch backwards... if it starts your engine then it's good.
Theres isn't any one that is correct and all methods should be part of a flyers repertoire.

Slap it
 

With a 4 stroke I prime it 'till the fuel runs out the exhaust, turn it over 3 or4 times to make sure it doesn't hyrolock. Then I connect the glow starter and turn it over (counter clockwise) untill I feel it kick. It's ready! Rotate the prop [gently] CLOCKWISE 'till it hits compression, rotate counter clockwise 1/2 turn. Now, I use a HEAVY (thick) glove and slap the prop clockwise. It hits compression and kicks counter clockwise and it should be running. You can also use a chicken stick or flip the spinner. I never did get spinner flip right.

Just make sure you don't have the throttle open full! I usually start at a high idle. After a few tries you will probably get first flip starts most of the time.

As always, keep you hands away from a spinning prop. I've seen a few flyers that didn't! NOT GOOD!!!

Hope this helps. Tom

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Keep in mind that this is not necessarily true with all four strokes. I always start mine the same way I'd start a two stroke, you just have to give a little more pressure during the flip. But sometimes, whether it's due to fuel ratio, weather conditions, or whatever, when you try to flip it throught the compression, it will predetonate and kick your hand back in the other direction (It REALLY wants to pop!). It usually won't run backwards because the pressure you were putting on it will keep it from reaching the next compression stroke. Ok, so I will usually give it a quick flip in the opposite direction, letting the stick slide off the end of the prop and usually (when it's in this condition) it starts.

Now, some guys, depending on their starting proceedure find that their engine is usually in this condition, so they just don't bother trying to flip it counter clockwise anymore.

Ya just do whatever works!

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

thanx guys.. I did the break-in on a stand.. now it's in the plane but it's not finished..I'll try that method when I get it ready to go ..

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I use an electric starter on everything, G23 gas, OS91 Surpass, and all my 2 cycles. As someone said previously, I don't put my hand on a hot prop. There is simply no money it.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

OK, I'll make a comment on this. I've always hand started because I began in CL. But when my son decided to get into models I refused to allow him to use an electric starter at first. I told him that I would teach him how to hand start because that was the only way he would get to know what an engine needs to start quickly. He got the feel for compressions, he got the feel for how to prime correctly. Now he can tell if an engine is worn out or not, he knows if it's flooded or dry, he knows if it's ready to start. Once he reached that stage I told him to use an electric starter if he wished. He still hand starts because he enjoys knowing he can safely do it.

An electric starter is fine IF you understand engines. I've watched guys destroying an engine by just trying the brute force method because they didn't know any better.

As for moving into the new era...I presume Suptter only uses the latest fuel injected engines? :)

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Hello Jim ! I use an electric starter. Never knew that a starter can cause that much damage. What are some of the precautions to take ?

Also I've heard of the term "hydrolock". What is this ? Thanks :)

reverse flip
 

Earlier in the post, there was a question about the reverse flip method. I had not seen this until recently, and now it is what I prefer to use. What I do is grab the very TIP of the spinner and, starting with the prop almost to the counter-clockwise compression point, I give it a quick flip clockwise. When it hits the compression point, it fires and sends it in the proper direction. I am REALLY big on safety, as I like having all of my fingers. I stay very clear of the prop, and I only do this with a large spinner. I make sure that my hands are clear of the spinner when it fires.

Sometimes, the engine can be a bit fussy in the morning, and I use the electric starter.

My understanding of hydrolic lock is when you get too much liquid in the compression chamber. The way this can hurt an engine is that you are giving it a quick jolt with the starter. The liquid can not be compressed, so somethinghas to give. The weakest point is in the engine parts, so they give. Please tell me where I am wrong in this.

Zee

Hydrolock
 

Correct

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Downunder, I wish I could afford a fuel injected engine! I just think it's a lot safer to use an electric starter. Engines are replacable......Fingers are NOT. I also do not prime an engine before trying to start it. I let the engine pull fuel to the carb on it's own and have never had one "hydrolock" with me. Maybe I'm lucky.....but I still have all my fingers too! I have never had any engine break by using an electric starter and they always start in the right direction. What ever floats your boat, do it. As for me, I'll keep using a starter and keep my fingers to fly with.
Danny Mercer
Rome, Ga.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

You can prime your engine when using an electric starter provided your plane is secured. Simply put your finger over the muffler exit. That is the way I see everyone use an electric starter
on a tough to start engine.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Well seeing rajul asked about precautions..

You can get a hydraulic lock if the cylinder lays over past horizontal. Excess fuel then fills the combustion chamber because it can't run out the exhaust port. Hit it with the starter and something's going to give. Either the starter slips on the spinner or the weakest link in the engine will give. That's usually the con rod and it either bends or breaks. A bent rod is easy to diagnose because the engine will get tight to turn even with the plug removed. So with an inverted engine ALWAYS turn the prop over by hand a couple of times before using the starter. If the compression suddenly feels a bit higher than usual then it's on the verge of locking.

If you have a bushed engine then it MUST have the steel thrust washer fitted between the prop driver and the crankcase. This is the only thing stopping alloy to alloy contact from the pressure of the starter pushing the crankshaft back. It's wise to put a few drops of fuel on it before using the starter to make sure it's got at least some lubrication.

Don't expect fuel to get drawn into the carb just by spinning over with the starter. This is where real damage can be done. The engine must be primed first in whatever your favourite way is. I once watched 2 guys spinning over an engine for a couple of minutes waiting for it to fire up. It didn't so I had a look at it. There was black oil coming out past the prop driver, it was a bushed engine and the crank was almost seized in the bush from lack of fuel. I got it freed up for them but who knows what condition the piston and liner were in?? Do that with a ball raced engine and either the piston or rod will go first.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Thanks downunder, or should I say "good dye mate" ! Can hydrolock occur in upright engines ? Can hydrolock occur if the crankcase becomes flooded ? Appreciate your comments.................

starter
 

If I didn't need it for my helis, I wouldn't carry my starter.

I start a OS.10 and AP.15 all the way to a TT120, G38 and 62 by hand. I don't own a 4s.

As Downunder said;
When you have the experience to know 'exactly what it takes' to hand-start an engine with one flip, it's very easy and safe.

If you always use a starter, you'll may never learn.

Here's some tips:

*Prime with carb open, plug exhaust or intake and NO GLOW.
*Always flip-start at idle or just above - NEVER WHEN OPEN
*Don't forget to dull the sharp edge of a new prop (trailing if you flip CCW)

Kirk

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I'm in the process of obtaining my first 4 cycle engine (Saito 100) and have a few questions. Everyone keeps talking about "priming the engine". Can anyone give me some details on different ways of priming the engine. With a 2 stroke all I did was fill the plane with fuel and use the electric starter. On occasion I would need to put my finger over the carb intake and spin the prop a few time to sort of choke the engine. Other than that I never had any issues. I originally started my 2 strokes with a chicken stick (Just simply flipping the engine in the direction of travel), but later got an electric starter and consistanly used it.

Most of the guys at my club just start 4 stroke with their electric starter, but many on this thread are against it. I guess I'd almost need to see the reverse flip start in person because it's hard to picture how it's done just from rading a thread.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I just broke an APC 18x8 prop with chicken stick. When I did a normal flip, the engine backfired, and the trialing edge of the prop smashed against the chicken stick and broke a little section of the prop trialing edge.

There's props and cons to chicken stick and starter. Chicken stick can damage prop, while starter can damage spinner.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

It's possible in an upright engine but you'd really have to be trying :)
Say you'd filled your tank then went off talking for 30 minutes and all the while the tank was syphoning into the carb. If the crank port was open then it'd run into the crankcase. Hit it with the starter and enough fuel might get thrown through the transfer port to fill the combustion chamber. All it takes is about 1cc of fuel for a .60 size engine. But that's one of the advantages of an inverted engine...any fuel that syphons through just dribbles straight out of the carb onto the ground (so long as the barrel is cracked open slightly).

hydro locking 2 stroke
 

Another way to lock up a up-rite engine is to refuel without taking off the pressure line to the muffler, fuel fills the muffler and back flows into the combustion chamber........DOH!

I wont be doing that again!

Regards
Mark

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

As an aside, hydrolock also plagues “round” engines on full-scale airplanes. You might have seen documentaries or newsreel films of ground crews pulling propellers through on B-17s and B-24s during World War Two. This was to ensure against hydrolock. Then, when the crew got on board and started the engine, one of the pistons wouldn’t hit a “brick wall” and damage a connecting rod, or something. Another term is simply “oil lock.” On radial engines the oil will tend to drain into the lower cylinders. If enough oil is in there during the compression stroke, the piston will hit a “brick wall.”

If you remember flying on DC-3s, DC-4s, DC-6s DC-7s or Lockheed Constellations (these were “top of the line” airliners at one time), then you might have noticed that the engines never started “right away.” This was because during the starting procedure the crew would count eight blades of rotation before turning on the magneto (“ignition”) switch. Once again, this was to prevent hydrolock. It took only six blades of prop rotation to clear all cylinders on the R-2800 engine that powered the DC-6, but it took eight blades of prop rotation to do the same for the R-3350 that powered the DC-7 - - which had a four-bladed prop. So, just for standardization, eight blades were counted during the starting sequence on ALL of the birds before turning on the magneto switch to provide ignition.

The same hydrolock problem can rear its ugly head on 4-stroke model engines. So, it’s best to rotate the prop through a couple of cycles prior to heating up the glow plug. This would be especially true on 4-strokes that are mounted inverted. You sure don’t want to hit a “brick wall” with the piston, right?

F-89 Driver

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

When the engine is hydro-locked due to flooding, it's difficult to turn with starter anyway. Usually it would throw the starter off and scratch the spinner. I always turn the props about 5~10 turns at 1/3 throttle before putting on the glow battery, which also helps to distribute the fuel evenly inside the engine for a sure start.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

Hi seanychen ! Do you pre-turn your props with hand or the starter ? I have read elsewhere in this forum that an engine can pop prematurely without a glow igniter under the right conditions ! Haven't experienced that myself but worth the precaution............

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I pre-turn with my hand slowly a few times by grasping the prop to reduce the hydro-lock. Only really high compression engines like Super Tigre ABC & Rossi can start w/o glow battery. OS and Saito are mostly what I use, and they should not start running w/o the glow battery.

Chicken Stick Or Electic Starter?
 

I've heard this story about glow engines firing without the battery connected, a couple of guys who've mentioned it are very well respected so there must be some truth in it. However, in my 40+ years of messing around with various engines I've never experienced it and neither has anyone else that I know so I'd guess the chance of it happening is about as good as being hit by a meteor :)

Rossi, ST etc aren't what you'd call really high compression...they're about 11:1 where OS and so on are about 9.5:1 which isn't that much different. I run my Enya 60X at 13.5:1 and it definitely never shows any sign of kicking without the battery.