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Reproducing vintage kits

Old 10-23-2002, 05:58 PM
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049flyer
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

I have collected a few vintage kits and am considering reproducing them on a small scale for my fellow modelers.

Any of you guys have any idea what sort of legal or copyright problems may be involved? Some kits are by companies still in business and some from companies long departed. Are kits usually even copyrighted?

I'm thinking about the Goldberg Jr. Falcon, and Jr. Skylark, Sterling Mini Mambo and a few vintage Patern planes.

What do you think, will I make a few bucks or will I just get sued?
Old 10-23-2002, 07:41 PM
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dennis
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

I doubt that you will get sued. You are not doing this as a commercial venture. Also many of the older Sterling models have been reproed by several individuals with no royalty or copyright problems. Also believe that the copyright laws are different for material prior to a certain age. Know that there was a discussion about this on several boards. Consensus is no problem
Old 10-24-2002, 11:15 AM
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Default I Am Going That Way Also!

I am working on offering some of the older kits also. I Read some of the comments in the other forums. Even tried contacting some of the old manufacturers with no luck. I am redrawing up plans on AutoCAD and having parts laser cut. Not exact copies of kits. Close to exact outlines but I leave out items not needed now because of better glues, equipment etc. I have the Minnie Mambo almost finished,( there is a pic in my gallery of the prototype) Jr. Falcon and Skylark completed looking for leading and trailing edge stock. Lighting Bug, 2 prototype kits are being built to confirm fits. Selling the Wee Stick now, a throw off of the ACE littiest stick but can be built up to 4 channels. In the future Falcon 56, Sr Falcon and Skylark and the Esquire and Tri-Squire series plus the Topflite Schoolboy, Girl and Master. I have had a lot of interest in some of these because I fly many of them with the vintage radios. Many people have asked for kits and the collector's prices are just too high. I say go for it. You will not get too much interest from the guys with ARFs but some of the real kit builders and older guys will be interested. Most of the newer guys are amazed how well these old birds fly. My best question to date from the new guys was; What Temperature do you iron on that silk finish at?

Goog Luck,

BobHH
Old 10-24-2002, 12:55 PM
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Default Vintage kits

Hey BobHH:

I am interested in your kits! Got a web site or any prices?

Several years ago I researched some of the older kits. I contacted Carl Goldberg Models and offered to buy the rights to their older stuff, no answer. I then offered to personally purchase an entire run of 5000 or so kits of the Jr. Falcon, no answer. Made the same offer to Sterling, no answer. I suspect they are not interested in making money or more likely they can make more by selling ARFs. You would think they would sell the rights or dies for the kits they are no longer interested in.

I guess I won't duplicate your efforts maybe I'll concentrate on some of the vintage patterns kits.

By the way what does it cost to get kits laser cut?

Oh and I think silk irons on fine when you set your iron to the "dope" setting.

Gene
Old 10-24-2002, 02:36 PM
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Default Will Keep you informed

2Fast, as of now around $30.00 for the Wee Stick. Taking 4 to the swap meet in Winston Salem next week to see how they do. Honestly, I am still doing price analysis. As I mentioned I am having to modify the ribs to fit currently available leading and trailing edge stock, not having acceptable results. I am now experimenting with my router table and gringing my own dies. As for laser cutting, Alex at AK Models does a great job, supplies SIG balsa and charges a nominal fee. I assemble kits with copies of my plans. Still working on manuals and correct fitting boxes. Fly every prototype with older gear and new stuff.

I also sent a letter to Goldberg but got no reply. Let me know if you are doing the older pattern kits. I don't have much interest in that direction but may can assist in getting you started.

On a funny note. I had some new flyers argue one day why my Minnie Mambo would not fly without an elevator being rudder only. Blew their minds with loops and barrel rolls!!!

BobHH
Old 10-24-2002, 05:23 PM
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

Years ago when Dave Patrick was in charge at Goldberg I asked for permission to publish a scratch built article and plans for the Skylane42, modified version. He gave me verbal permission but after several attempts to secure the written permission required by RCM I never got a reply. The discussion at Toledo indicated that these older kits had too many parts and would not be viable to put back into production. With the price of a Sr. Falcon between $150 and $200 I would think that a reproduction would make a few bucks. Has anyone tried some of the custom cutters to see just what they would charge for cutting some of these kits? OR just parts like the rib sets etc.
Old 10-24-2002, 07:23 PM
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Default Vintage Kits

BobHH

In reference to your "leading edge" problem: Why no just use square balsa stock and let the builder shape the edge? Most guys that would but your kit would be very familiar with working with balsa. I'll take a look at my minnie mambo and see if it will work, got the kit around here somewhere!

By the way what info do the kit cutters require? Do you supply the drawings or the DXF file for their computer?
Old 10-24-2002, 10:56 PM
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Default I send them a DWG file

I send them a DWG file but I am sure a DXF would be fine. Change all lines to P-Lines to shorten up time to cut. As to the leading and trailing edge stock problem, the original kits had these preformed. As to the Goldberg kits yes Skylane42, he did sometimes use 5 different pieces of balsa to make 1 part. This is some of the simplefication I talked about eliminating in my stuff. The easy thing is the Falcon and Skylark used the same wing and horizontal tail. Just different fuslage. I have the Sr. Falcon Proto covered and ready for finishing but just have not had the time yet.

BobHH
Old 10-25-2002, 02:06 AM
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Ralph V
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

Goldbeg kits

Goldberg has ben sold to Lanier. and Bubba is in the process of reproducing the Goldberg kits.

Ralph V
Old 10-25-2002, 11:17 AM
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

your correct about Bubba buying Goldberg, but not the C/L part of the line. That has been bought by Brodak. Be interesting to see what they save and what they never produce again.
Old 10-25-2002, 01:46 PM
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Default Yep I heard That Also

I also heard that Lanier purchased Goldberg but I am curious about a re-issue of the out of date kits. I would gladly buy from him instead of trying to put kits together. My last trip to his shop in Birmingham, I found out he had purchased the Veco line and a prop line also. He said he was going to produce the old Veco stuff eventually but to date I have seen nothing on it. He also did not have any kind words for Brodak claiming he was infringing on he product rights by offering some of Veco designs. Lets see what happens.

BobHH
Old 10-25-2002, 05:28 PM
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Default By The Way

By The Way Hal, I have not forgotten the DeBolt Champ, Livewire Trainer and others. I have had a lot of interest in these also. Great fliers! When the time comes I will be begging for premission from you also. I'll get the guys from the VRCS to pressure you!!

Thanks

BobHH
Old 10-25-2002, 08:52 PM
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

BobHH, Actually I'm not too sure that Bubba is correct in his assumption of brodak infringing on his rights. The kits that Veco sold were of later versions of the Thunderbird and the Smoothie. In that the construction was different and the motor placement was different. While I'm not an attorney I think that he'd have a hard time of it.Especially since Brodak got Bob Palmer to endorse his offerings as a copy of his original designs and not the changed designs that Veco kitted .Add to that the construction is not the same, plans are different. Really they qualify as 2 completely different planes. Would be nice if Bubba brought out some of the Veco kits. He could kill the market in collecting them overnight if he did. Wonder if the dies are any good anymore
Old 10-26-2002, 07:08 PM
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Default Senior Falcon Reborn

2Fast

I have loved the Senior falcon as a beautiful airplane and great flyer since the 60's.

So anyway, I took an old set of plans and scratched on out in the last few weeks. I widened the nose a bit to allow modern engine mounting..(no beam mount), set the fuse up for belly-mounted landing gear, took out some of the dihedral, and enlarged the rudder.

And I can't wait to get it covered and in the air.

I would think that if you make a few superficial changes and re-named your kit the Ultra-Falcon or Super Falcon, you should be OK. (I'd buy a kit).

Best of Luck.
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Old 10-26-2002, 07:10 PM
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

yea, I agree with Russ.. after all, just how many "ugly sticks" have been produced based on Phil Krafts design.. some don`t even attempt to disguise themself.
Old 10-26-2002, 08:56 PM
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Default Sr. Falcon

Hey Russ:

Thats's a beauty! The Sr. Falcon is on my "got to build it" list! Any chance you can make a copy for me? I'll gladly pay you for your time. I've got a new in the box K&B .61 series 71 or so just waiting to go on a SR. Falcon!

What do you say?

I can even trade you a set of plans that I have. I have several vintage kits laying around including a Jr. Falcon and Minnie Mambo and a full size Mambo. Also a vintage pattern plane called a Cutlass Supreme designed by Don Coleman and kitted by Joy Products. It came in second in the 1971 Nats, looks like an Intruder. Also have plans for an Andrews Aeromaster Bipe!

Gene
Old 10-26-2002, 11:44 PM
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Russ Verbael
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Default Senior Falcon Plans

2Fast:

I assume you want a copy of my plans. I can do this. A $10 bill would do the deal. The airplane is not really that hard to scratch out. (A big belt sander really helps when it comes time to do the wing spars and ribs.)

Also, I knew Don Coleman when I was a member of the Pensacola Aeromodelers back in the late 60's. We put on the Fiesta of Five Flags pattern contest every year and Coleman was one of our brightest stars. A great guy. I would love to buy the Cutlass Supreme...any interest in selling??

Again, good luck in re-kitting...there is a guy currently re-kitting the old Top Flight Taurus...another beautiful airplane, great flyer.
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Old 10-27-2002, 12:39 AM
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

Russ,

Who is rekitting the Top Flight Taurus? I want one bad.
Old 10-27-2002, 04:51 AM
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Default Trade

Russ:

I'm currently in kit collecting mode. I'm 46 and I'm collecting a bunch of old kits that I always wanted but couldn't afford. I plan to build them all when I retire! I'll have the most unique collection of flying machines at the field. Come to think of it I already do! Got a few old radios too, rudder only and GG, if you know what that is!

I'm not sure I want to sell the Cutlass Supreme although I may trade it for another old pattern kit. Kind of looking for an Intruder when I found this kit, the Cutlass looks like an Intruder. Anyway if you have an old pattern kit to trade let me know.

I will be happy to copy the plans and trade you for a copy of the Sr. Falcon plans. It may take me a few days though because I'll have to make templates for the ribs, it's a tapered wing so each rib is different. I'll have to check the plans out to make sure you could build from them, may also need templates for a few formers now that I think about it.

Let me know if you are interested. In any event I'll be happy to pay $10.00 for a copy of the Sr. Falcon plans.

Gene
Old 10-27-2002, 01:02 PM
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Default Sounds Like We Got Something In Common

2Fast, sounds like we are doing about the same thing. I am 45 and have a good collection of the older kits as well as operational older radios. I use the kits to go by for the kits I plan to offer as reproductions. I also still fly the older radios. 27 megs is still legal. My Dad goes back to when you built your own radios and he had his own radio business. As a challenge he started collecting the older radios some years ago to see if they would still work and started flying them in the older models. He got me into it and I've had a ball. All my older stuff has been quite reliable. He keeps my stuff operating.
Its funny when I take my Controlaire 10 channel reed outfit to the field and see the faces of the new guys. But it sure strikes up a rememberance conversation with the Senior fellows!!
I put some of my stuff in my photo gallery but some of the pics came out a bit light.

BobHH


BobHH
Old 10-27-2002, 02:43 PM
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Russ Verbael
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Default Reproducing vintage kits

AstroDog:

It will take me a while to find the guy's Email, but I'll try.

Russ V.
Old 10-27-2002, 02:52 PM
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Default Old radios

BobHH:

I have an old Min X Galloping Ghost rig that I have never powered up since buying if from a fellow modeler about 20 years ago.. It looks to be in pretty good shape and I have some documentation with it.

Do you think your dad would be interested in haveing a look at it for me? I sure would like to get it working so I can put it in my Jr. Falcon! I'll pay him for his time.

If not I also have an old Ace Pulse rig that works. It will work fine in the Jr. Falcon too.

Gene
Old 10-27-2002, 05:42 PM
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Default 2Fast I Will Let You Know

I will forward the request. I think he has an old Min-X system.

BobHH
Old 10-28-2002, 05:01 PM
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Default Winston Swap Meet

Bob HH
I hope to go to the Winston swap meet, will you have any prts for the Lighting Bug there?
Thanks
Old 10-28-2002, 09:44 PM
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Default Yep I will be there

Yep, I will bet there with your parts.

BobHH

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