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Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

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Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Old 10-21-2005, 06:11 PM
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sbd-5
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Default Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

is it just me or do others shake their heads when reading about building an arf,i believe the correct term should be assemble an arf as the building is done,sort of like the bicycle you have to assemble for the kids for Christmas,e.t.c.kits you build and plans you build from but i think arf you assemble.granted because of the price and value i have gotten into some of the arf but still like building kits and from plans as well as my own designs.guess i am trying to stir something up but when i assemble the arfs i don't really consider it building .most of you on this forum knows what building is as well as patience,i rarely see patience being used in some of the arf build threads,is that just a sign of the times.looks like kit builders as well as kits are like the muscle cars of the 60's call us dinosaurs
Old 10-21-2005, 07:43 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

I prefer to call them “PAST†for Pre Assembled Snap Together. I have some PASTs but the aircraft I enjoy flying the most were scratch built and kit built.

I have a Tower Koas 40 Monokote PAST and a kit built Koas 40. The kit built is a FULL ½ pound lighter!!

Old 10-21-2005, 08:29 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

I'm just getting back into R/C after having been away from it since the early 90s. I'm not a very good pilot and I actually enjoy scratchbuilding more than flying. The rewards I get are about 65/35 in that respect. I've been kind of preoccupied lately by the massive trend in ARFs and, believe it or not, I've also thought about the use of the word building in referrence to putting an ARF together. On one hand it annoys me a bit since joining pre-covered wing halves is not the same as building a wing. I don't think anyone would argue with that. But, my real concern is that the hobby is shifting (neutral word) from one of craftsmanship, engineering, problem solving and creativity to one of thumb agility. Even the popularity of electrics suggests to me that the time, patience (as you point out) and passion for tinkering and modifying IC engines is giving way to the cleanliness of EP.

One theory I have is that we are in the midst of a generation or two that do everything with a mouse, keyboard and game controller. I've worked for two universities for the past 12 yrs. and it's abolutely true that many of todays young people were simply never exposed to the types of hands-on toys and hobbies that people born before 1980 grew up with. It makes sense, then, that when they develop an interest in R/C, the transmitter is the most familiar and exciting aspect of the hobby. Add to that that many newer R/Cers have probably logged more hours on a PC flight simulator than at the field and the propensity for instant gratification and the popularity of ARFs seems natural.

It may be true that these days the skills and character traits that I value so much - and gained from modeling - are simply not necessary in today's job world, so why learn them. But, I still believe that one is missing a great deal of enjoyment and personal reward by never having sliced a finger open with a razor blade.
Old 10-21-2005, 09:31 PM
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jessiej
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Well stated, raineday.

jess
Old 10-21-2005, 10:38 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Well said, raineday.

I grew up modeling when there were no ARF's. There was a thrill when something you built with your own hands flew for the first time. I don't see any way one could get that feeling by "building" an ARF (that's how I usually phrase it - with quotation marks around building). In those days, you learned about how to follow directions, careful planning on how best to use your "lumber", stuff like "measure twice, cut once" and cut the longest pieces first. All things I have used the rest of my life. I remember, at age 14, how I'd tinker for hours with the plane and single channel R/C gear during the week to get several 3-minute "controlled freeflights" on Saturday. And how if you brought home a repairable airplane, it was considered a good flying session. Nothing was computerized - you learned how to "trim" the model to make it fly right. And "trim" had nothing to do with little levers or a programming screen on a transmitter. Most beginners don't want to do that today. They don't want to go through a "learning curve". This has become a "gotta have it now" world.
Old 10-21-2005, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]


ORIGINAL: rainedav

But, my real concern is that the hobby is shifting (neutral word) from one of craftsmanship, engineering, problem solving and creativity to one of thumb agility.
It may be true that these days the skills and character traits that I value so much - and gained from modeling - are simply not necessary in today's job world, so why learn them. But, I still believe that one is missing a great deal of enjoyment and personal reward by never having sliced a finger open with a razor blade.
Raineday, you and I think alike! But we are a dying breed my friend. This is exactly why I enjoy the Vintage R/C environment so much. Craftsmanship, skill, creativity, attention to detail and a bit of artistic flair is still a requirement. I miss the days when modeling was a major part of the hobby and the determination folks had back then to be master builders.
If you didn't master the building skills you didn't fly, it was the right of passage in the early days of R/C.
I admit, I do assemble an ARF from time to time, but its really so I can just keep up with the changing times.
Old 10-21-2005, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

The first plane I built was a Phoenix 1 from RCM plans--it was rough-looking, but I did it. When I first flew, all we had were kits and plans. The good part was the knowledge you gain about working with balsa, and the individual color schemes that come from building your own plane. The downside was the life investment you had to make building that plane. A newcomer could spend months building a plane, only to totally wipe it out in seconds with a couple "dumb-thumbs". There was a sign posted on the wall of the local model shop back when that said "...God does not deduct the time spending models from our lifespan..." I can only hope that's true.

The best thing about ARFs IMHO is when they are used as trainers, or back-up planes---you don't have the emotional attachment you develop when you spend so much of your spare time building. If it goes in--it goes in. That fact might make a pilot a little less nervous while trying new things. Lately, there seems to be a decided lack of originality out at the field, which is filled with the predictable ARFs, and their stock Monokote finishes. Rarely do the manufacturers finish a plane the way I would have done it, or use the colors I'd use---some of the finishes look downright gaudy to me--with "loud"colors that don't go together well. Every ARF I've ever built, I've made changes to the finish to add a little bit of a personal touch.

Right now I'm building TWO King Altairs from RCM, (1966 design), plans. I enjoy building to a point, but the real reason is that building them is the ONLY WAY I can get these great-flying planes. It has really been a LABOR of love. It's challenging and time-consuming to make all the templates, cut every piece out, sand all the parts to get the best fit etc if you're going to do a good job, but there are rewards too, and a feeling of accomplishment knowing I'm flying something different and personal at the field. There have been a lot of small mods, (small engineering changes), I've made along the way that add to the time as well. I'm not a particularly fast builder, and try to work a little each day rather than working constantly until it's done. I started making the templates in early December last year, and I am in the middle of the fuses now, after completing the stabs and wings. I was hoping to fly them this season, but other projects, and the 40+ hours I need to spend at work , get in the way of my building. When they are finally done, it will be the first time ever that I've built two of the same plane with identical paint schemes. Looking forward to flying them next spring. I'll post a picture if/when they're finally done.
Old 10-22-2005, 08:52 AM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

looks like i am not alone then.why does everyone want to have the same plane even the scale arfs.ie mustangs seem to beavailable in every shape and size no longer are they unigue as any one can buy one.i build from plans scale a nd sport planes that you do not see all the time that appeal to me.ie new era 3 is a great flying easy to build .20 size sport/patern plane,then there is the brian taylor kingvisher observation plane on wheels.my stafford p-39 was different till vq and wm offered them.but my b-24 still is.same happened to my vk dr-1 now it is an arf.there is a certain undescribable thrill when you test fly a plane you built yourself and it requires little or no trim.just not the same with an arf.guess it is due to the fact it was not a labor of love during the building process.one thing we all learned was problem solving,how to read planes and build a plane without a step by step instruction book and some engineerig/design that those assembling arf just won't learn or understand.i think the biy kit as sig now calls them will be extinct in a few years as the builders become a minority.
Old 10-22-2005, 09:29 AM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

It all boils down to the fact that its a TIME management factor. todays world doesn't have time to build from plans. turn off the TV, games, etc and there is time to plan build. its not the experience factor- we learned how to do it way back when. building since the 1930's dick stamm
Old 10-22-2005, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Rather than a step down as a minority we should present ourselves as a step up in exclusivity (jeez, can you use a word like that in a sentence). Car makers and the automotive aftermarket do this all over the pace. Look at all the dolled up rice burners on the highway. BTW my daily driver is an MGB.

Swinging Modelers, have you noticed that your model is sitting at every other station on the flightline. Let us send you something unique from Billyjoeraybob's Kit Cutters. Be the only one at your field with our Whooptedoo 60. Act Now! And remember, cutting balsa isexcellent therapy for carpal tunnel syndrome*

*this therapy not endorsed by the AMA...either one.

Goofiness aside, it seems some modelers are intimidated by the thought of building a model. A good example is a guy who flys at the local field. He has been flying a year or two and has good skills. He has done minor repairs to his own arfs and he admires (drools over) the kits and plans built planes that others bring to the field. He just doesn't seem top have the confidence in his own building ability. If he lived less that an hour and a half away I'd put him to work in my shop just to get him hooked. Hmmmm, what a concept.

Just my two cents worth on this often discussed topic.


Madmen at large,We're everywhere!
Old 10-22-2005, 09:04 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

I am beginning to get a sense that at least some modelers are starting to get bored with ARFs, and that there is an increasing trend toward building your own kits. Some of the evidence for this can be found in the increasing interest in two AMA Special Interest Groups, (SIGs)--namely the Vintage R/C Society, (VR/CS), and the Senior Pattern Association, (SPA).

Be on the lookout for an upcoming article in Model Aviation magazine that highlights in detail these two great groups of modelers, and what they are all about. Both groups promote Vintage R/C, (and the traditionally-built models of that time). It is gratifying to see that everybody in this thread is making one of the points I made in that article--that these groups are growing partly because there is a tendency in each of us to be individuals, and fly something different than the crowd--in this case, vintage R/C. Article should appear sometime this winter.

Building is making a comeback--it won't take over, but it will always be there.

You heard it here first.
Old 10-22-2005, 10:16 PM
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Jim Thomerson
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. For me the best experience is designing an airplane, building it, getting it to work right and going out and flying it in competition. I would call that the complete modeling experience. Some would say that various parts of that experience do not appeal to them. Fine. I think it is very true that the manual and problem solving skills we developed are much rarer today. Most people today don't do anything that calls for the kind of manual constructive skills which building a model (or a hot rod, or fixing your bicycle, like we did years ago). One thing that has impressed me. I've seen a fair amount of professional level lab equipment which was very poorly designed and thought out. Clearly not designed by a model builder.
Old 10-22-2005, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

[quote][]One thing that has impressed me. I've seen a fair amount of professional level lab equipment which was very poorly designed and thought out. Clearly not designed by a model builder/quote
sounds like they do not use what they design.I FLY WHAT I BUILD OR DESIGN
Old 10-22-2005, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Another point to consider is that R/C is but one facet of model aviation. I'm always humbled by the craftsmanship and finishing artistry of those C/L Stunt ships. That doesn't seem to be dying off. Free flight is also a bastion of scratchbuilding and designing. Although, as a member of the NFFS, I'm aware that there is a heated debate going on about the possibilty of dropping the BOM (builder of the model) rule lately.
Old 10-22-2005, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

I enjoy assembling and flying arf's and building and flying a model (kit or plan). Looking at a Hangar 9 Funtana for my next plane

Scott
Old 10-22-2005, 11:18 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

well i belive if you assemble an arf that qualifies you for the builder of the model rule in ama r/c events or was that rule done away with?then there is the team events were some builds some else flies..i went the c/l route started in 1965 with a scientific lil bibe kit bought at western auto for $1.50 used a cox babe bee cost was 5.95 at 25 cents a week took along time to get the engine.still have both today.started r/c in 1970 building.maiden flight was in jan 1971.flew many c/l contest from goodyear,slow combat to scale back then.
Old 10-24-2005, 01:22 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

If you have the time to build - build. If you just enjoy flying, but can't, or have no spare time, buy an ARF or RTF, join a club and go flying. I started building gummiband models in 1934 and wouldn't have it any other way. I design and build but have assembled an ARF and a ARC which both flew well. They were almost as much work as building a kit. Do what makes you happy when you are at the flying field. Enjoy the company of other RCers and the wonder of flying model aircraft.
Old 10-24-2005, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

This is just a take from a young pup (30), been in the hobby for 7 years:

I was out at the field this last Saturday, and there was a club member there that comes out on a fairly regular basis. The problem that I have, is that he does not know how to do anything on his own or read instructions. Not that people haven't tried to show him how, he has no interest in learning. He only wants to fly. He has one of the club members that works at our LHS assemble (ARF's) all of his models. Someone always has to tune his engines and if anything goes wrong he is clueless.

He was having problems with an engine on a Decathalon, and another member and myself ended up pulling the tank. The clunk line was too short and the fill/vent lines were pointed down (only fill the tank half full), and we also found that the linkage on the barrel of the carb was not secure, so the barrel would turn sometimes and other times it wouldn't.

Now, I don't mind helping someone out if they are paying attention and trying to learn and become more familiar with the gear that they are using on their model, but I'm not going to spend half of my Saturday messing around with someones stuff that has no desire to learn how to do it on his own.

I'm afraid that with some of the advances in the hobby, there are going to be those that come in and think that they just want to fly and not take the time and learn how the model functions/operates, and that's fine, just don't fly around me (This guy is extremely scary, especially when you are on the flight line when he takes off).

Needless to say he buried his new Cub, completely totalled. From what he said and the way that it acted, I would say that the linkage on the elevator broke or was not secure. This is the third plane that he has crashed in the last two months.

I'm not an ARF fan, but I see why some people like them. I personally, have owned two, a GP Texan and a profile. The Texan was pretty good quality and was not in kit form, so I bought it. The profile on the other hand was crap it didn't go together well and didn't fly well. I will however never own one again, as I get satisfaction from knowing that I built it, how it went together and that if anything goes wrong, it is all my fault.

I know that there is still a lot for me to learn in this hobby and I have some great members in our club to learn from. There are quite a few older gentlemen that just build, and their work is just awesome, something that no arf could possibly capture. There are others that know a lot about engines and radio gear, lots to be learned if people will just take the time to ask questions and listen. With new advances in kit cutting and the ability to make the building of a kit simpler, hopefully building will stay around for a while to come and some of these kits that have been discontinued for a while may reappear.

Just my 2 cents.
Old 10-24-2005, 04:46 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

this whole debate has been beaten to death. here are the main reasons people assemble- no time no space and no enjoyment building.
main reasons for building plenty of time space and enjoy building. i love building a friend of mine doesnt. it takes him 6 months to assemble an arf. he doesnt like to build has no time and no space. he is an oracle DBA and has to work long hours sometimes. i am a programmer and up until june of this last year i was unmarried which means i had a lot of time and i have my own house and i dont park the car in the garage just airplanes so i have the space. because of the market he and i both get to be happy. i get to build he gets to assemble and fly. why should we argue between us which is better. we have a partnership though i can assemble his arfs and he can tune my engines. i am terrible at it. i am 27 he is 35 he has been in flying for 10 years and i have been in two. you would think i would only assemble arfs but life is silly that way. there are times when i think building is a waste of time and that is when it takes me an hour and a half to get to the field and i have to plana whole day around it. this debate will always go on as long as there is one or the other as a choice. its the same with the whole electric vs nitro vs gas. just do what you want to do. another debate is comercial gas engines vs converted weedies. will the madness ever end?[&:]

Old 10-24-2005, 05:35 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

I'm 8-10 years off retirement, but something I've had in mind for when I do shuck the ropes is to run a small scale night time building course for interested local fliers, say 5-6 nights with the end result being a simple sports model. Has anyone here done that before? How did you go about it?
Old 10-24-2005, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta due.....so I MAKE time for my hobby

Jerry
Old 10-24-2005, 07:30 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Sorry to disrupt this thread, but isn't this just a bunch of sour grapes? If you love building then BUILD!!! If you love flying, then FLY!!!!! If you love designing, then DESIGN!!!! I personally love designing, but I make a lot of time to do that, but ARFs are built better then most people will build them these days. If you can build, then be happy and stop all this UGLY nonsence about being better because you can build a kit.


Woops
Old 10-24-2005, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

carlosponti, I see your point and I can agree with it as far as it goes, but I think there's a lot more to it than simply a matter of time and space and making a choice.

Many of the people my age (44) and older are in this hobby because we are technically oriented, hands-on creative types (and love airplanes). What I'm saying is that it is/was a hobby that naturally attracts people who enjoy making things and fiddling with them until they work the way we want them to. Many of us could have just as easily gotten into building our own hotrods and racing them on the weekends, or making our own electronics gadgets. R/C is for many a lot more than just flying.

Piloting is the conclusion of a process that involves dreaming up, designing, engineering, building, finishing, flying and then redesigning all over.

I stick to the point that I made earlier that ARFs have granted the opportunity for a whole new type of individual to become R/C pilots. So I guess I'm making another distinction: between those that want to just partake in the transmitter part of the hobby (piloting) - and I do think this is related to the PC generation - and those that probably grew up with X-acto chests and stick and tissue models (modelers).

I don't mean to come across as self-righteous or snobby about that. I just don't think it's a time issue. We find the time to do what we find to be rewarding, whether we're on the clock or not. I'm not a true programmer, but my last job title was Programmer/Developer. The Linux Sys Admins I worked with spent as much or more time at home typing commands into a terminal as I do gluing and sanding balsa.
Old 10-24-2005, 10:52 PM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Mr Woops

Chill out a bit. You and Carlos are lecturing about the obvious. Everybody knows what makes R/C so great is the great diversity of interests. What appeals to me may not appeal to you--but that's OK. We are all still modelers. Personally I don't think people on this thread intended to be deliberately mean-spirited, or snobby--they're just stating an opinion.

Some of the points you may consider to be "nonsense and ugliness" are quite valid, such as the need for modelers to want to learn enough about their planes that they don't consistantly bother or endanger others at the field. Everybody still has the right to state their opinions on a forum without generating a lecture. Personally I feel strongly that ARFs serve a great purpose, especially for newbies who don't want to invest scads of time, only to see their models turn into piles of balsa. ARFs make perfect sense for a lot of reasons, and they will always be with us, and I say thank God for them.

On the other hand there is a lot to be said for building skills, if for no other reason, to acquire the knowledge needed to fix the ARFs when needed. Some go to such extremes building and detailing their models, and have so much time invested in them that I'd be afraid to fly them---but that's what they want to do.

I think we can all agree that we should pursue our individual interests, and let the other guy do the same. Live and let live etc, etc,--and let free speech continue.
Old 10-25-2005, 05:51 AM
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Default RE: Building vs Assembling [kits vs arf]

Do what I did. Disconnect the cable T.V. and you will be amazed how much building time you have!
My prediction is 10 years from now you will see a sharp decline in the number of people in this hobby. I truly believe if todays Arf assembler does not discover the building half of this hobby then the interest will die. If all I could do is fly models I would take up a different hobby. JMO.

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