skylark-flier

Got a couple goodies here that you might just be able to use. Back when I restored mine I'd actually written (e-mail) to the President of Great Lakes Aircraft Corporation and he gave me permission to use the company logo on my plane. So, if you know how to make your own decals, you've got the original logo here to work with. The company historian also sent me a shrunk-down copy of the original company design specs from 1931. Am including them here for you, along with one of the original advertisements and an ad for a young lady who was just as famous as Amelia Earhart "back in the day". Dig that price tag for a brand new plane!!

Also have a pic of the "prototype", the very first 2T-1 (black & white, rather fuzzy unfortunately - plane was actually red overall with tan/sand teardrop on fuse side and red & tan wings). Got a modern pic that shows the true colors. There were 2 basic paint designs in the early days. One had the teardrop side like mine, one had the center-stripe like yours.

Feel like an idiot on those last pics I sent - first one, the 2T-1C is actually a 2T-1C1, just like yours - it has the ailerons on top & bottom. Should have paid better attention when I sent it. Second pic, of the 2T-1A2 - the plane's been modified to also have upper ailerons - its true designation is 2T-1A2b. That one shows the connecting rod between upper and lower quite well. BTW, you connect them at the TE of the aileron.

A small bit of history on the 2T's. Some (all early mods [A, B & C] involved here) were/are made with single cockpit, some with doubles - yours is a single. The double cockpits were the norm, and 90% of the OLD 2T's (before 1940) are built that way, 100% of the new ones. The single cockpit was for mail carriers - front cockpit was moved back and a cargo compartment was installed in front of him, behind the firewall. The plane could carry up to 250 lbs of mail, plus pilot, plus full fuel load - average range being in the 500 mile neighborhood.

If you're into designations, the full designation on your bird is GL-2T-1C1. GL (Great Lakes) 2 (wings) T (trainer) 1 (engine) C (3-rd major mod, radial engine) 1 (upper ailerons). The company has only made this one basic design since 1928 and their designation system is quite simple. "A" birds had an engine with the crank-shaft at the bottom, "B" birds had one with crank at top. "C" was radial engines and was the first mod with the larger rudder seen today. WW-2 hit and they made a few planes for the USAAF (all "C"s) but Stearman beat them out and got the big contract for trainer planes, building the PT-17 in huge quantities. Great Lakes all but folded by 1943. "D" designation was skipped - would have been an enclosed cockpit but nobody wanted it. They came back in the late 1950's with the 2T-1E that had a new engine (same engine as in Piper Super-Cubs) - much more capable and with opposing cylinders, giving her today's flattened front-end. "E"s are the main design built today. "Espt" is a special-built turboprop version - something like 800+hp driving an airframe that was originally designed for something like 75 horses. There aren't many of these around, I think all (5 or 6) are owned by one guy that runs an aerobatic team.

Only flying tips I can really give you is fly her gently!!!!!! She CAN roll at an incredibly fast rate, even with just a little bit of roll input. ALWAYS use rudder & aileron together - the adverse yaw with just aileron input is actually entertaining to watch (she's quite capable of "crabbing" in the air once you get used to the inputs - one direction on ailerons, the other on rudder) but frightening if you're the one on the controls. Loops are something impressive to watch - she can nearly rotate on her wing if your CG's right. And she flies quite well on just rudder when you're simply tooling around in the air.

Should you have to come down "dead stick", don't try to extend the glide a whole lot - bring her down fairly smartly and keep some speed on those wings. She does glide decently but at somewhat more of an angle than many others - due exclusively to the drag of being an old-design biplane.

Hey! Good luck with the fun fly!!!

Marc B

Hi,

ARUP

Thanks for posting the trademark and other stuff. The model looks really nice! Does it fly well?

KitBuilder

I have the flyline plans for the great lakes 40" span.. was thinking of enlarging to .60 size model one day....bottom right pic looks like the 2T-1A but I believe the prop comes out the bottom of the cowl in the plans i have.

landeck

My Feedback: (1)

KitBuilder, I have both the Sterling and Flyline kits of the Great Lakes 2T-1A and the prop shaft does come out the bottom of the cowling. The Flyline kit is yet to be built but I will get to it one day.

Bruce

flyingagin

Hi skylark-flier I was using the search function hunting for something else and stumbled across this thread. What a hoot after the recent corresponding with you that you would have a thread on a Great-Lakes-2T-1A-Biplane.
I have one also. It is in storage. so I can't get at it very well. But it is a bit bigger than yours at 62" span and 9.25 chord. I don't remember the manufacture. I don't have the box, but I still have the plans.

Ken

skylark-flier

Hey Ken!! Fancy, meeting you here!!!! Geez, it's been AGES since I popped into this thread but I keep it active for the background information.

If you wanna see the restoration pages in my website, just take a look-see at http://www.wanderings-ds.com/whs/52-2t1a.html - - there are maybe a half dozen pages on how it all came to be, some of the research I (and several guys in this thread) did, etc etc. It truly was a project, just wish the plane was better.

Hokay, we're off to the races! Hungry horses, snow storm coming...

flyingagin

Get a fire started and them horses fed and get yourself inside and building Dave.

Ken

flyingagin

Hi Dave I found the information for my Great-Lakes-2T-1A-Biplane.
It is a Ikon Kit
Wing Span 64"
1200" square
Fuse length of 47.5
Flying Weight of 11-14 LBS.
Power 90 4 stroke
Scale 1/5 2.4-1
And was designed by Emil Neely
With a copyright date of 12-10-1987

That information was on the rest of the plans that were in a different closet. Go figure
Now to make arrangement to get it from where it is store (a friends country garage) before the weather warms up enough for the bees there to become a problem.

Then repair and recover, in 5mm silk and Dope.

Ken

skylark-flier

Never heard of them. However, would you believe that I found a listing for Ikon Model Aircraft? Ikon Northwest still exists in Idaho
Full address:
Ikon Northwest3806 N Chase Road
Post Falls, ID 83854 - View MapPhone: (208) 773-9001
Web: www.ikonnwst.com

According to the web, they have 3 employees, --- and I found a PT22 tail wheel mount that they build today - http://www.centuryjet.com/product_in...roducts_id/565

Cool!!!!!!!

flyingagin

I came into it second hand at a swap meet. I never did finish the restore. But I sure am getting the bug to go get it and restore it thanks to your thread here. Now see what you done gone and did.

Ken

skylark-flier

Do you realize, you're talking 20% PLUS full-size scale? I thought mine was big - yours is nearly 10% larger than mine.

flyingagin

Yeah it is a big bird. 1/5. I will make arrangements to go get it. My buddy has it in a garage out in the country on some property he has there. He let me put all the stuff we had in storage there When we were in a one bedroom. We worked together for a couple of years.
My have keeps asking me when I am going to build a Pitts 1/4 scale. Heck I think this GL T2A is at least as big!

Up rather early this morning. I got up to go pee and ended up on the floor for a bit. I need to tell that dang floor not to jump up and smack me no more. Real gentle fall though.

I have more planes to restore or build than I have time or money, mostly money, darn.

Not going to get much building done today. DRs. then lawyer later.

Type at you later

Ken

flyingagin

Hi again Dave

I collected my Great Lakes Trainer from where it was stored. Actually I collected the rest of the planes and parts while I was at it. I had some plastic tubs stored there that the wife wanted to use during are move. That is what prompted me to collect my stored planes since I was going to be there anyway.

Until I start getting disability we can't make rent So we have been invited by another family to move in with them until we get back on our feet financially.
I am having neck surgery to replace a disk middle of next month. I became convinced my wife is not physical up to taking care of me while I convalesce. The 48 hours I was restricted to my recliner this past week convinced me of that (had a CT Milogram so recliner per doctors orders). I could tell she was pushing herself to hard but she would not let me move.

So God has provided both a roof even if temporary (till we can once again be on our own), and my wife will have help, So God is truly good.

A lot of preamble to get to this point point but it is part of the story I queses.

The planes were stored in a garage out in the country that has seen better days. So the protection was not all that good. There were mud dobbers in there and they seem to like nesting in my planes. And rodents, mice squirrels, rats. Some rodent had ate part of one planes tail. Planes had fell off the shelf's they were sitting on, and a course moister and dampness. So there is plenty of repairs needed on all. But the one that fared the worse is you guessed it, the Great Lakes Trainer.

The turtle deck is completely ruined. One stab is broke off. All the hinges are loose. The fabric on the wings is totally shot. There is some damaged wood in the fuse that is partly rotted, feels soft.

But It is salvageable. I have all of the plans. The punkie wood wood can be cut out and spliced back. The covering on the wings must be completely stripped and the frame work inspected.

This week I will wash and clean every thing up for all of the planes and wings, and remove all the debris that found it way inside of fuses and wings including mud (mud dobbers). If I had waited till the weather had warmed up, the mud dobbers would have been active and not something I can easily deal with due. Also I do not think the planes would have lasted any longer.

So there will be a rebuild Dave. Just going to be a bit before I am able to get to it. Got to get moved out, much of our belongings placed in storage. And then neck surgery followed by hand surgery. I will work on my planes when I am physically able to.

When I do rebuild The covering will be classic old school, SILK AND DOPE.

Ken

skylark-flier

WOW! You're gonna be a busy little boy - no doubt about it. I don't see anything that's not repairable though. Something to do when the fish aren't biting, ya?!

I just saw another 2T kit on e-bay a couple days ago, a Flyline kit. Box looked like it just came from the factory, so with all the "collectors" out there today the price will be something else if I want it. I've fought the good fight a couple times and won - and the planes fly today. Like you, if I've got a plane it doesn't belong in a box, it belongs in the air.

As far as the med stuff, just keep pressing on with pressing on - that's all any of us can do. It's true! The Lord does watch over us - I just got my own med results back a week ago - my slight diabeties (?sp?) from last year is gone, BP is back where it was when I was 20 (a long, loooooooooooong time ago), cholesterol is perfect, yada yada. My only problem in all the world is that I'm way too good lookin'!

..

..

(and, there are those who might whisper that I'm slightly "all that" with myself too - - LOL)

Take care, my friend!

flyingagin

Wee that is OK because I am the smart one.

Ken

flyingagin

The first thing to do and that will be today is to take it outside and spray it down with a bleach solution, Fuse looke like it might have had mice or rats nesting in it. Although there are no droppings. But a friend on the BHOTR site pointed out that there could be a Hantavirus concern. So I will take all the planes and parts I brought home outside and clean then. I will use nitril glove to handle them till then.

Ken

skylark-flier

That's the ONLY way to go!!!!! Good thinking!

flyingagin

Hi Dave.

I washed all the wings I pulled out of storage this morning and the fuse for a different bi-plane. I dug the mud nest from the mud Dobbers out also.

Then this afternoon I got some bleach and mixed it 50 50 with water. I then liberally sprayed the fuse, in particular the bottom were there was signs of nesting, I assume mice. But no droppings.

So I then pealed the Monocoat of the bottom of the fuse. The bottom stringers came away with it. They were completely rotted. I brushed all the rest of the debris out with an acid brush. More wood came away.

On inspection all of the fuse stringers are rotted out. So all wood from aft of the bottom wing T.E. is bad and has to be replaced. The bottom formers are totally rotted away as well as the their stringers. They are not on the plans. The front and back top formers are there and I can use them to pattern the missing formers by block sanding new ones with a sanding bar.

The lower wing saddle balsa is mostly good, just one small section rotted. The bad thing and it is the way the plane was designed is that the the wing mounts glue to straight to this section of balsa, and the ply doubler does not extend that far down. That is a correctable item.

I have not yet inspected the fuse mounting for the Cabane struts. Also the fire wall and its mount needs to be gone over. Same thing for the landing gear attachment. These inspections will require some more opening up of the fuse.

So some structural mods are required that should have been part of the design to start with, such as wing attachment. I also do not like how the inter plane struts attach. They use nylon ball links to attach to the wings. And are missing anyway. So new inter plane struts that bolt on.

I opened up the some of the covering on both wings, and the wood is perfect. The wood in the tail feathers is good. I also opened up that covering. Although the joint to the fuse is bad and one obviously completely broken off. I will use a pair of carbon fiber rods to rejoin them.

The rest of the planes I pulled from storage appear to be in good shape. One wing of my Spirit 100 glider seems to have a little mud form the Mud Dobbers in it. and the other bi-plane seems to have some mud as well.

So after we get moved and I can work on my planes again, I will start on it. I am in the middle of another plane, so I do wish to finish it first.

O since the plans did not have the formers or a top view I am going to have to do some punting. I can make a template of the fuse top section. there is enough left to trace between the wing TE and the stab LE. So I can get what I need for the top view.

Now I am hoping you still have your plans and that they had bulk heads and formers. If so I would sure appreciate it if you could copie or scan them. Just the formers and bulk heads. I can resize them. I do not have enough left of the bottom of the fuse to draw new formers. That is why I hoping you can help me there.

My wife did find plans on the bay for a 1/5 GL T2A. She says that as soon as our checks come in next week she will order them. Dirty shame that those parts and view were not part of the plans. Actually maybe I am missing one sheet?

Ken

skylark-flier

Geez, you've got a near total, from the ground - up, rebuild on your hands. Plans-wise, back on page 2 here, post #45 was a guy that had plans available a couple years ago - but they were for a different company's kit. He might, still.

My plane came to me much as yours came to you - a barn-find. I managed to get the original plans from an e-bay sale to someone else (copied them) and I've got them in the website at http://www.wanderings-ds.com/whs/52-2t1a-ebay.html - on the full plans for my Scale Lines plane, center pic 2nd row has a full set of formers and where they are in the plane. Y'might be able to do something with that.

Also, should you get to that point, and want to, top of page 3 (and in the website) is the actual Great Lakes logo, as it was in 1930. It's a bit different today (yeah, they're still in production - through WACO Co. now) but I actually got permission from the Co. Prez to use it - they were happy to give me anything I might be able to use. Speaking of which, on http://www.wanderings-ds.com/whs/52-2t1a.html is the original Great Lakes schematic.

flyingagin

Thanks Dave that is going to help a lot.

I did some hunting this morning and I downloaded a nice set of plans from outerzone this morning.

It has all the detail I was missing. I can re scale parts to the correct size.


In the next very few days I am going to add some reinforcement to the aft fuse. Some new stringers inside of the original structure. It is very very weak right now, so weak that I am afraid to try and move it to a new house for fear it will break and make the rebuild way harder. The front section is not bad, but I will be going over it with a fine tooth comb, and making a few additional structural mods and additions to make sure it can handle a 1.20 four stroke. I think a 90 might be just a bit on the lower end of power. The only engine I have that could power it is a 90 ST, but just does not seem like a proper power plant for it to me.

Here is were I downloaded plans from


http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=415


Ken

flyingagin

I started a little work on the plane. Just to get the tail end strong enough to safely move at the end of the month.

I want to run some stringer inside of the pre existing structure. Will use some Bass 1/4 x 1/4 stringers. The existing top stringers are 1/4 x 1/4 Spruce and some of the lace work up rights are also Spruce. That all survived. Under the stab is a ply plate for the tail wheel attachment. Only about a 1/2 square is rotted. After looking at it, it is badly twisted, like holy smokes twisted. I ended up removing it, and adding a new ply doublers to it. It is now reattached and straight.

Once dry then I can add the new internal stringers.

Hey Dave I have a question for you.

Do you know if the 3 main variants were the same other than engine and top ailerons and bigger tail? Was the fuse length and shape the same? I love that round engine.

Ken

Michaelj2k

This is the plan you want. http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=4698

skylark-flier

Yeah, the 3 main variants were nothing more than engine changes, mostly. The 1935 "K" variant was a bit shorter in the nose and had a longer and higher tail - that larger tail is now standard with all variants. Overall, the length stayed the same. Also, the 1935 "K" variant was supposed to be an enclosed cockpit - but the whole project was dropped and that variant was never produced at all. Finally, in the mid-1950's the newly regenerated company produced the "K" with open cockpit.

One of the "minor but important" facts I got from the Great Lakes historian was that there were only a very few of the single-seat planes made - something less than 200 total. 36 went to the Army Air Corps for training as an "advanced trainer" during the period that the Curtis P-6 Hawk and her brethren were in the air, the rest went to the US Air Mail Service. In all of these, the front cockpit was covered-over. The mail planes had the whole front cockpit area converted to mail storage - she could carry gas, pilot & 350 lbs of mail, not bad in those days.

The 2T's major failing, and the reason it didn't become as widely produced as others like the WACO series, was that she had a nasty tendency to go into a spin that was un-recoverable if she wasn't handled right. CG too far back (too heavy a pilot, mostly) and not enough speed equal'd a spin all the way to the ground. That's why the larger tail was developed and why the "K" was longer in the rear. Many/most of the "old" 2T's have been re-fitted with the larger tail now, and all new ones have it - no more death-spins.

Just looking at a "1A" or "1E" you can tell whether she's an original or "newly produced" (after 1955) by looking at the engine exhaust pipes. Originals (before WWII) had straight pipes out of either the top or bottom of the cowl, exclusively. New ones (with piston engines, except "K's") all have only 2 pipes out the bottom, flaired to the rear.

Hey, one thing I learned very very fast with my restoration was to watch your weight - CLOSELY. You've got a lot of work ahead of you behind that cockpit - don't make her tail-heavy.

flyingagin

Thanks Michael.
That is closer than the one I downloaded. If I am careful enough I should only need to print out a few pieces.

I steamed a 1/4 x 1/4 piece of bass And have it clamped into bend to match the fuse shape. 1 #6" stick will more that do both sides and but some strength back in the aft fuse. Replacing the bottom stringers. They were balsa, but since there has been so much compromise to the fuse I felt that bass was needed. Not much wight, but I will have to watch it from here on in.

Ken