r_jsmith

Over on the RC Groups in their "Modeling Science" forum I posted a description of a meteorological drone I built while a student at Parks College in 1959. I have also posted a couple of follow ups regarding the primitive tools I used to build the airframe and more importantly what this project means to me one half century later.

Here, this forum is a living museum preserveing the legacy of the early days of model aviation.

Question? Why do you construct and fly these designs? Do you feel they are in some ways superior to the technological marvels celebrated elsewhere. Do you (in some way) feel that you are preserving an important heritage?

My thoughts (from RC Groups) are posted below;


I feel that my project was an typical example of what would be accomplished in the 50''s by a good " garage" tinkerer,

Think of the multitude of disciplines I had to understand and execute with (hopefully) reasonable competence to accomplish such an endeavor? With the exception of the engine just about everything in my project was assembled from scratch or a basic kit. The reward... enormous personal satisfaction in validation of concept and material realization of same even if it was only relatively successful (as was the case here.)

Today one goes out and assembles their projects from "black boxes." Of course its obvious that most of the time such an assemblage functions in a manner vastly superior to that of my primitive effort, But to me anyway the personal satisfaction/validation derived from an assemblage of boxes is of an entirely different quality .

I had the good fortune to attend Parks College in the late 50''s. Parks was located outside of St. Louis. Even in the 50''s St. Louis was still very much in the shadow of Lindberg''s singular achievement. They have a museum containing the awards and gifts he received. Surely his was the definitive triumph of the individual over the committee/team approach . I feel that the technological complication which forced the passage of sole individual expression has not always been for the best

Parks College a Jesuit school, made much of individuality and and with that validation of self via self expression. I think that most us who were educated there absorbed this doctrine were rewarded by it in their personal and professional careers .

Live Wire

You know if it wern''t for us there would be no ARFS''s, 3D new radios or a hobby as people see it today. There probably would not be a space program for young men and women to look forward to. Well I think we have done our job and done it well if the new will carry on
For got a letter

John 38

I like vintage because

I like building
I like to see good construction shine thru the covering both on the deck and in the air
I like to see my planes fly - whether built as per plan , or modifieded , or out of my own brainbox - without to much pilot input from me.
I like others of like mind to see and appreciate my achievements and also for me to appreciate others'' achievements.
And I enjoy the social nattering of other real modellers in between flights.

Vintage does all that for me whereas modern kits ( non vintage ) doesn''t quite achieve all of that. Hving said that, I still fly modern artf''s as they are convenient and usually able to cope with all weathers whereas my lighter vintage models prefer kinder weather

As indicated in above posts - we have done our bit in the past helping to provide inspiration, but we can still continue to do more thru vintage modelling by stimulating "own-build" modelling even if it is mainly the new retirees showing up on the field now. remember , the bulk of them will have grandchildren and some of "grandpa''s hobby " will rub off onto that generation - before gameboy and girls kick in.

jaymen

Why? It''s what I have always done....the hobby has changed, I have not! Everyone else calls it vintage, I call it the same hobby I started in. Times have changed, new things come and go, but I''m still using the skill I learned years ago, and enjoy it. Just last year I built a stick and tissue Piper Super Cub, just because I enjoy working with model cement, dope, and tissue. It is rewarding to see a finished model develope from a pile of sheet wood and sticks, it gives one a feeling of pride, and accomplishment.

The fact is, not everyone can build, even more so today, so there is the additional satisfaction of carrying on what is quickly becoming a lost art. Even troubleshooting the old radios down to component level is a lost art in todays throw-away society.

johnvb-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Agreed with all of that, except I don't fly ARFs. Tried and didn't really like them.

jaymen

What does Vintage/Antique aeromodeling mean to you

It means we are all getting older.....[]

balsaworks

It means real aeromodelling – building your own models from simple and wonderful materials balsa wood, spruce, plywood, piano wire, jap tissue, silk, dope, and using techniques and tools that are available to anyone with a little interest. The simple things are the most fun.
It means building models from an era when the most efficient design was still largely an unknown and when each designer contributed his own ideas, which led to variation and beauty of design.
Today contest models are more or less clones of what is already known to provide maximum efficiency, and they’re often so technically advanced they’re way beyond the capabilities of anyone except a small group of super specialists. Impressive and a little boring.

Most of all it means enjoying the magic and beauty of the model airplanes that grabbed me with such force when I was a little kid. That magic never seems to fade.

Telemaster Sales UK

When I was twelve I built my first powered free flight model, a Veron Cardinal, powered by a Mills 75. It's a high wing cabin monoplane design of 35" (90cms) span. The wings were covered in yellow tissue, doped and fuel proofed. I wanted to paint the balsa fuselage in purple but dope in that colour was not available then so I mixed up red and blue dope. It came out brown! But I was really proud of this model, I had built a rubber powered model and I glider before, but this was the best model I had ever built up to that time. I took it to show my Uncle Geoff, who was a great builder and the man who had first introduced me to the hobby and showed me how build. He approved of the model but never saw it fly as he was in the terminal stages of cancer and he died soon afterwards. He was only 35. With my father and another uncle, also an aeromodeller, I took it to Forton Aerodrome, a WW2 training field about eight miles from where I live and where I still fly with the Shropshire Model Flying Club, (see www.smfcinfo.org.uk.) We stood at the intersection of the runways, it was a windless day. After trimming flights I found I could fill the Mills' thimble-like fuel tank which gave an engine run of what seemed like five minutes, and the little model would climb in left-hand cicles until it was a tiny cross in the sky at least 500 feet (150 metres) above our heads before the engine would cut, then the model would stall and it would slowly glide back towards the ground in right-hand circles. I can still see the sun shining through that yellow tissue.

From then on I was hooked. Sure I gave up aeromodelling for years due to the usual reasons, leaving home, going to university, moving to London, sex and drugs and rock'n'roll, and in my case, I really was a semi-professional rock singer, on and off for more than forty years, but aeromodelling is like gonnorreah, once it's in the blood it's there for life: it will burst out again.

I built a Sopwith One and a Half Strutter control-liner in the Seventies, it was too heavy, it flew twice. Then one day, when living in rural North Devon I saw a man flying a model. I stopped the car, asked lots of questions, bought a second-hand radio which had never been used, was given an Irvine 20 car engine which was later converted to aircraft specification and knowing that the Super 60 was the classic British radio I trainer, I went into the local model shop to buy one. The proprietor did not have one in stock but offered me a Junior 60, a 1946 free flight design as an alternative at a discount. I built it and finished it in a rather drab scheme of black, white and Olive Drab parachute nylon, but it flew well and it taught me how to fly. My cousin owns it now, and rather like George Washington's axe, it's on its second fuselage and third tail plane. He still flies it occassionally but it's finished rather more attactively in orange and white these days!

That's why I like vintage models.


Happy Landings


David Davis

SMFC
BMFA Approved Club Level Flying Instructor.

P.S. I am convinced that for people aged over say 45 who want to learn to fly, the vintage/antique/ old-timer model is the best model to get "stick-time" on. Young people seem to be able to manage ARTF 40 powered four channel trainers but they're too difficult to fly for people whose reactions are not as sharp as they once were. Ok, a vintage model won't fly in a wind, but a beginner would not be able to control any model in a strong wind and a vintage model, given enough height returns to it's free flight heritage. If the beginner loses control, all he has to do is cut the throttle and release the sticks and the model will sort itself out.

I use a Radio Queen to teach beginners on. This is an seven-foot (2.1 metre) 1950 design powered by an OS four stroke.

Telemaster Sales UK

When I was twelve I built my first powered free flight model, a Veron Cardinal, powered by a Mills 75. It's a high wing cabin monoplane design of 35" (90cms) span. The wings were covered in yellow tissue, doped and fuel proofed. I wanted to paint the balsa fuselage in purple but dope in that colour was not available then so I mixed up red and blue dope. It came out brown! But I was really proud of this model, I had built a rubber powered model and I glider before, but this was the best model I had ever built up to that time. I took it to show my Uncle Geoff, who was a great builder and the man who had first introduced me to the hobby and showed me how build. He approved of the model but never saw it fly as he was in the terminal stages of cancer and he died soon afterwards. He was only 35. With my father and another uncle, also an aeromodeller, I took it to Forton Aerodrome, a WW2 training field about eight miles from where I live and where I still fly with the Shropshire Model Flying Club, (see www.smfcinfo.org.uk.) We stood at the intersection of the runways, it was a windless day. After trimming flights I found I could fill the Mills' thimble-like fuel tank which gave an engine run of what seemed like five minutes, and the little model would climb in left-hand cicles until it was a tiny cross in the sky at least 500 feet (150 metres) above our heads before the engine would cut, then the model would stall and it would slowly glide back towards the ground in right-hand circles. I can still see the sun shining through that yellow tissue.

From then on I was hooked. Sure I gave up aeromodelling for years due to the usual reasons, leaving home, going to university, moving to London, sex and drugs and rock'n'roll, and in my case, I really was a semi-professional rock singer, on and off for more than forty years, but aeromodelling is like gonnorreah, once it's in the blood it's there for life: it will burst out again.

I built a Sopwith One and a Half Strutter control-liner in the Seventies, it was too heavy, it flew twice. Then one day, when living in rural North Devon I saw a man flying a model. I stopped the car, asked lots of questions, bought a second-hand radio which had never been used, was given an Irvine 20 car engine which was later converted to aircraft specification and knowing that the Super 60 was the classic British radio I trainer, I went into the local model shop to buy one. The proprietor did not have one in stock but offered me a Junior 60, a 1946 free flight design as an alternative at a discount. I built it and finished it in a rather drab scheme of black, white and Olive Drab parachute nylon, but it flew well and it taught me how to fly. My cousin owns it now, and rather like George Washington's axe, it's on its second fuselage and third tail plane. He still flies it occassionally but it's finished rather more attactively in orange and white these days!

That's why I like vintage models.


Happy Landings


David Davis

SMFC
BMFA Approved Club Level Flying Instructor.

P.S. I am convinced that for people aged over say 45 who want to learn to fly, the vintage/antique/ old-timer model is the best model to get "stick-time" on. Young people seem to be able to manage ARTF 40 powered four channel trainers but they're too difficult to fly for people whose reactions are not as sharp as they once were. Ok, a vintage model won't fly in a wind, but a beginner would not be able to control any model in a strong wind and a vintage model, given enough height returns to it's free flight heritage. If the beginner loses control, all he has to do is cut the throttle and release the sticks and the model will sort itself out.

I use a Radio Queen to teach beginners on. This is an seven-foot (2.1 metre) 1950 design powered by an OS four stroke.

Telemaster Sales UK

Hi John

Seems that you and I are often online at the same time, it's five to six in the morning over here so I guess it must be evening in Oz.

What vintage models do you have? I have a Radio Queen fitted with a OS 52 Fourstroke, this provides much more power than it needs but like all OS's is very reliable, a four channel Super 60 with a Merco 35, a Chris Olsen Uproar with an Irvine 40 and a damaged Super Buccaneer which I won on eBay for £20. I plan to repair it and probably fit a K&B61 or Thunder Tigre 91 for power. The Buccaneer is also four channel, finished in paint and is consequently pretty heavy but it looks magnificent in a red and white sunburst finish. I plan to sell the Super 60.

I am a club level instructor and use the Radio Queen as a basic trainer on a buddy box. I find this especially suitable for older blokes who find modern four channel ARTFs a bit too much of a handful at first.

I lived in Australia for three years in the Seventies, initially in Melbourne where I worked in a department store, then in Adelaide before getting a job in the Outback (The Real Australia!) working for the ANR. I came back to marry the Love of my Life. We divorced in 1997. Shoulda stayed in Oz! Fond memories of opening the batting for the railway on Sunday afternoons!

At the end of March last year, I was made redundant from my job and, having an interest in WW1, decided that I would ride my motorcycle, a 955cc Triumph Sprint RS, to Gallipoli for Anzac Day, it's only 2,500 miles from my home, (4000kms)! It took me four and a half days to get there including being held up for four hours by the Greek and Turkish customs. When I was there I met a journalist called Anne who lived in Queensland, and a young bloke from Sidney called Michael Hurst. Anne was researching the fallen from her home town. One in six was born in England, one in four in Great Britain. Mick always wore an Akubra hat. I said I'd get one if I got a job. Well it took me a year to get one, (turned 60 last month, age discrimination?) though I did have my pension to fall back on and bits of consultancy and self employment, but now I work part-time as a driver for a Jaguar agent. It's a tough job etc....I'm still in touch with both Mick and Anne. Mick says he plans to come to the Old Country next year, Anne says she'd like to visit the Western Front, where her grandfather's brother is buried. He was a captain in the Royal Garrison Artillery and was killed at Ypres. On my return journey I photographed his grave and sent it to her. Her grandfather married his brother's fiancee before migrating to Australia in the Twenties. Rather romantic really. The Akubra is on order.

As my RCU Handle suggests, I am about to import the Telemaster range of models to the UK. Are you familiar with the type? It is basically a vintage design with ailerons, available in five sizes from three to twelve feet and you can view them on www.telemastersalesuk.co.uk or on the Hobby Lobby website. I hope to sell them to people who want a nice easy to fly model, the larger ones of which could be used as toffee bombers or glider tugs. I've had two in the past, a 5'6" model and an eight footer. I sold the small one to my cousin and the big one went in as a result of unexplained radio interference. I thought a plug must have become detatched but I lost my Morane on Sunday in exactly the same place. The local pundits claim that the cause of the crash was interference from a wire fence alongside the field. Never did like that Morane anyway! I'll just repair it, pull out the radio and engine and put it on Boot Hill, the corner of our club hut where abandoned projects are left for those who are brave enough to take them on! You may see the Morane and me on our club's website www.smfcinfo.org.uk as well as our hut and its new roof paid for by a National lottery Grant. We fly off a WW2 training drome, where Closterman was once stationed. We have the most spoiled caravan in the world inside the hut as a tea and coffee point. I mean a caravan inside a building!

Nice talking to you, glad you're still playing out. The club secretary is a good guitarist and bass player and my cousin plays the drums, but the old seccy has too many distractions which would prevent him from starting a band. I still have my Telecaster and PA equipment, 1500 watts worth. When I first bought it my old bass player said, "Where are we going to be playing? The Royal Albert Hall?"

Happy Landings

Dave Davis

Telemaster Sales UK

By the way gentlemen, now that I think about it I have either, built every model I have ever flown, or taken on someone else's abandoned projects, with four exceptions.

1. A Super 60 (a classic British late-vintage design from 1959,) which I bought ready-made from a club colleague. More Brits probably learned to fly on this design than on any other. I am giving this model to club colleague as barter for other services.

2. An ARTF Limbo Dancer, a Fun Fly thing. This rekitted itself when I gave an up signal on a low inverted pass, thus joining the "Up Elevator Club."

3. An ARTF Citabria. I was teaching beginners one day in crowded skies. I assured the trainee that while models may look close, they weren't really. When we landed the trainer, my Citabria took to the air. I put it into a vertical climb even though another model, a Flair Piper Cub was close by, thinking that they look close together but they're not really. Well that Cub removed my tail surfaces as neat as you like and the Citabria was smashed beyond repair, and ....yes you've guessed it, it was the only other model in the air at the time! To make matters worse the Cub was totally unaffected by the collision and continued to fly for several minutes afterwards!

4. An ARTF Decathlon which I bought to help out a friend. This has remained under my bed since Christmas 2006.

IS THE ALMIGHTY TRYING TO TELL ME SOMETHING!

DD

The Ghost

I may not be as old as some(only 47) but have been modeling since the late 60's, and still enjoy it as much as I did when I started. Still love building, but due to lung problems (from other sorces) the sanding can only be done outside and with dust masks now, and only use white glue and epoxy as I am hypersensetive to CA glues. The improvement in engine design and reliablity have helped the beginner and a lot of other modelers as well. The 4strokers have helped with the noise problem, but due to the ARF's things like plans and full build kits as well as some building supplies have all but gone.

Cheers

H5487

This is an interesting thread and I'd like to add my 2 cents...

Over the years, I have determined that there are three groups of aeromodelers:
1. Those who like to build/create but have no real desire to see their creations fly. (These folks are the backbone of the plastic model industry and what remains of the static display balsa scratchbuilding and kit building hobby.)
2. Those who like to fly models but aren't really interested in building them first. (The ARF/RTF industry was created for this segment.)
and 3. Those who enjoy BOTH building and flying.

For many reasons, a large segment of our hobby falls into group #2. I'll leave it to others to determine whether it's due to the often-cited "instant gratification" of today's society or just simply due to lack of desire or time, but because this seems to be a growing segment of our hobby, look for ARFs and RTFs to continue in popularity.

Personally, I fall into Group 3. I dearly LOVE to build things; be it model airplanes, electronic gizmos, or furniture. I support the kit and scratchbuilding segments of our hobby for this reason. And I like vintage models because they come from an era when everyone enjoyed building their own planes. The vintage designs also seem to exhibit more character. (Is it just me or do all of the CAPs, YAKs, Extras, and other low-wing 3D hotrods at the R/C field nowadays seem to look alike?)

I have nothing against those in Group 2. At least they're part of the same hobby. I DO wish there were more builders but that's just part of progress. Old cars and tube radios are no longer mainstream either. I'll try to pass on my love for creating things with my own hands to my grandkids as much as I can but if they're not interested, I'll probably still love 'em. :-)

Harvey

Stickbuilder

I have heard the lame excuse (lack of time) until I'm sick of it. How on earth did they get less than the same 24 hours per day as did the rest of us? I brought up 3 wonderful children, and educated them (they all have advanced degrees) and they are productive members of society. I still found time to sneak in a few minutes per evening on my lifelong hobby.

If you ask me (and you did not), it's a matter of pure need for instant gratification. These guys could not build if they wanted to. It's sad, but this is not a hobby to them, it's just a sport. The average guy flying today does not know what a longeron is. They have no idea how to plank a fuselage, or make a built-up leading edge. I even see some that are trying a simple build that don't even have a clue what a shear web is. It's not lack of time, but lack of discipline.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

H5487

Hi Bill,

While today's kids have the same number of hours in a day that you and I did, compare our after school activities to their's..

When our school day was over in the 1950s and 60s, we usually went home and did our 30 minutes to an hour of homework before dinner and then rode our bikes over to our friend's house until dark. We had a few chores to do but since our moms didn't work, we didn't have to do much other than feed the dog and keep our rooms clean. Some of us had a scout meeting or ball practice once a week but that was pretty much it in the way of scheduled after-school activities. There was lots of time available to glue balsa together.

But in comparison, look at what today's kids have to cram into the same few hours after school each day: One to THREE hours of homework, ball practice, gymnastics/tumbling/kickboxing, band instrument tutoring, required to join the family for a two-hour rented movie (in the name of spending "quality family time" together), math tutoring, and since most families have two working parents these days (or more common than not, just one parent), the kids also have to help out with the housecleaning, cooking, laundry, and still feed the dog! Throw in the modern distractions of video games, surfing the internet, and immense peer pressure to join a gang or do drugs, and it's a wonder that today's kids even have time to fly ARFs and RTFs!

While I would love to conveniently blame today's kids for being interested only in instant gratification, the sad truth of the matter is that our modern society pushes our kids to be as much as they can be - it's no longer acceptable to be "average". Today's parents, attempting to raise their kids to be highly competitive and, thus, successful as adults, aren't allowing their kids to "play" after school anymore. And despite all of the wonderful skills that you and I think that building models gives kids, model building is still considered as just "playing."

Bill, today's kids don't build models because they're only interested in instant gratification. They don't build models because their parents don't allow them the time to do so!

Harvey

Stickbuilder

Ummm,

Maybe for you, but we owned a very large feed lot operation. Every day, after Football practice, I had 3 wagons loaded with hay bales to scatter and feed the cattle. We started Spring training in March, and then Summer practice began in July. I was pretty busy, and my Dad was one who believed that an Idle mind is the Devil's workshop. He made sure that I wasn't too idle. I still found the time to build and fly model airplanes. Anyone will do whatever he wants to do badly enough, and will find the time to do it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

H5487

"Anyone will do whatever he wants to do badly enough, and will find the time to do it."

Bill, I can't argue with you there. My point was that the kids are being pulled in so many directions these days that they don't really have the time to devote to building models like we did. I am constantly amazed at the number of afterschool activities my own grandkids are involved in (some mandatory but, admittedly, some are also elective) and it is difficult imagining where they would find the time to build models.

But, perhaps the biggest obstacle to the continuation of our hobby is that airplanes, real and model, just don't fascinate today's kids like it did (and still does) you and I. They're all into iPods and cell phones now.

Harvey

xxspeed

My Feedback: (5)

I have a love for vintage airplanes, this winter i build a big Taube from inlarged Balsa USA plans with some changes. The plane flys great very scale like and with the Il-300 engine sound good too, here are a few pictures, enjoy. dave

Telemaster Sales UK

Nice job XX!

Watch out for all of those electricity cables, they were a hazard to the full-size Taubes as well.

DD

skylark-flier

Bill, I'm going to agree 90% with you - but with a couple exceptions. Personally, I've been building and flying since I was 7 (1955) and I wouldn't have it any other way. That's me. The kids nowdays have been brought up on instant EVERYTHING and they simply don't have any of the basic disciplines that would allow them to create anything with their own hands. I-pods, the web, video games, cell phones - shoot, half of them don't even leave their monitors (of whatever kind) long enough to look outside and see what kind of a day it is.

Don't mean to sound like the old foggie that I am but,... until they learn to do something for themselves (anything) they're never going to learn how to build and fly a plane. They'll fly of course, as long as someone else (usually somewhere in the Far East) does all the work for them. That's the core of most of the problems in this country today - the young are basically thinking that someone else will do the work and they'll reap the benefits.

Everybody's so AGAINST the Mexicans "taking away our jobs". They're doing nothing of the kind, they're simply working the jobs that our own kids are to lazy to leave their video games to do anymore.

My own history might help explain my feelings; graduated school, got a job, went to college part-time, did a full military career AND got a couple degrees in the meantime, raised a family. Retired from the military, got a full-time job AND I've spent the past 10 years training horses at the same time - and not one minute of it took time away from my building and flying - - not for the past 53 years.

I'd like to see one of our youngsters follow that lead.

You might notice there's no mention of I-pods, video games, etc anywhere in that history. My priorities have lead in one direction (a rather active direction, I might add), their priorities are leading in a totally different direction - totally inactive. Probably one of the main reasons we hear so much about obesity these days.

OK, "geezer-alert" is over, I've said my piece.

Dave

Telemaster Sales UK

Well said Dave. It's the same over here but with us it's the Poles not the Mexicans.

DD

JimInCA

[quote]ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


Bill,
I have to take exception when you say that lack of time is a "lame excuse". To quote Bob Dylan, "The Times They Are A-Changin'". Years ago, I use to be able to put out two or three kit build planes a year, but now, I'm lucky if I get one done a year. Working here in what use to be called the Silicon Valley, ten hour work days are the norm and twelve hour days are not uncommon. By the time you get home, make dinner, have a nice meal, and clean up the kitchen, it's time to go to bed so that you can get enough rest to get up tomorrow and do it all over again. Years ago when an eight hour work day was the norm, you had an hour or two to work on your planes a couple of evenings a week, but not any more. Competition from jobs being off-shored and H1B Visas did away with that.
And with all that said, and to get back on topic, I recently picked up an original Lou Andrew's Aeromaster that I can't wait to get started on. The Aeromaster is one of those planes that I loved when I first got in to this hobby back in the '70s, but back then, I couldn't afford. So I guess why I like the vintage planes is just nostalgia. I like the look and feel of planes from the '70s and early '80s. These are the planes that I learned to fly on and the ones that got me hooked on this hobby. I just wish that I had more time to build.
Jim...

r_jsmith

Hello, I am r_j smith's wife. I'd bet that every guy on this forum's wife always thought of model-building as a "Why bother?" kind of thing, myself included. I would suggest that all the guys in this group with women in their lives have them read this thread. It's a real eye-opener. It made me feel very proud of my husband's accomplishments in this area.

gene6029

The things I like about the Vintage R/C deal is that you can be around people that can actually build models and appreciate other people that can do the same. The most frustrateing thing to me is to take a model to the local club after spending the last year building and covering your newest model and it doesent even get a mention from the local ARF flyers. I know its not their fault that most of them cant build, but its still nice to have your stuff appreciated buy the guys at the vintage meets......Gene

The Ghost

Gene, It's even worse when they ask what brand of ARF is it.

Cheers