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Debolt Live Wire Champ

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Debolt Live Wire Champ

Old 02-24-2009, 06:16 PM
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cpc625
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Default Debolt Live Wire Champ

I have access to plans for both the Demco Version and the Midwest MK 3 Version?

Is there a great deal of difference between the two?

Thanks

Charlie
Old 02-24-2009, 07:59 PM
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billmod12
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Charlie, Here is a list of all the differences in the LW Champions thanks to Bob Gardner,Vintage R/C Society and a picture of Harold Debolts original prototype champ taken by Tommy Walton at a meet in Greensboro NC 1955. Note the Stabilizer is on the bottom of the fuse in the prototype. There are several good kits available. Early R/C, Bob Holman will laser cut a short kit from the original plan and may have the later plan by now. Bob Harris (BobHH) can probably expand on this as well. Good luck and keep us posted. A mighty fine airplane!!
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:19 PM
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cpc625
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Billmod12,

Thanks for the info.

I didn't realize there were 3 versions. As it turns out, the plans are for versions 2(1967) & 3.

Im trying to decide which one would be the better scratch-build. I have both kits, but want to keep them for the time being.


Thanks again

Charlie
Old 02-24-2009, 08:30 PM
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cpc625
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

As I dig deeper into what I believed was a Demco Box, because of the label, two things stand out.

1) The plans are on 2 sheets, like someone took an original set and copied it in two sections

2) The is a sheet inside the kit that has a notice from "CLASSIC AIR MODEL KITS"



Charlie
Old 02-24-2009, 08:42 PM
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CoosBayLumber
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

ORIGINAL: cpc625

Billmod12,

Thanks for the info.

I didn't realize there were 3 versions. As it turns out, the plans are for versions 2(1967) & 3.

Im trying to decide which one would be the better scratch-build. I have both kits, but want to keep them for the time being.


Thanks again

Charlie

I would think your two plans to be of the Modern era.

Was also a revision to plan about 1960 which was a supplement to original plan, due to changes in radio gear then. Got the original on that one too.

Best to fly the more modern era A/C unless you like underpowered airplanes as the original was.

Wm.
Old 02-24-2009, 08:57 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Charlie, the original 1954/55 kit had 2 sheets with all the radio installations and instructions for making/soldering up the batt packs. Bob Holeman will lasercut you a short kit for around 60 bucks from original plan but you will have to furnish wing sheeting,leading edge, hardwood and landing gear or buy one from Early RC with everything for 85 bucks. http://www.earlyrcmodels.com/id15.html . Having recently built a LW Trainer from short kit from Bob which was very nice, by the time I had bought my remaining balsa and landing gear I had 85.00 in it. I also found out with todays radios I did not need all that width in the fuse so you may want to build the narrow one. Anyway!! have fun. Cheers Bill I have the 1955 plan, 1967 plan, and a modified plan built up for a 60 engine signed by Hal Debolt so if you need to compare notes we will be looking at the same thing. Post pics as you make progress.
Old 02-24-2009, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

The Live Wire Champ was the very first R/C model I ever saw. Sometime in the late 50's or very early 60's. I believe it was rudder only, although my memory doesn't serve me good enough to swear to that. I do know that the old guy flying had a large transmitter (with very tall antenna) sitting beside his lawn chair and a button on a chord for control. His much younger crew wound the excapement, started the engine and launched. Now, that is the way to fly.

Last year I built an Early RC Models version. I transgressed by reducing the dihedral and adding ailerons. Even so, it is a joy to fly. I installed an Max OS 25 and a 4 ounce tank. On a day last summer I was able to take it to altitude, throttle back, and ride the thermals for 40 min. and 36 sec.

I got to feeling guilty about the wing modification this winter so I built another wing with no ailerons and the correct dihedral. I saved 5 ounces! I am shooting for 50 minutes as soon as the thermals come back.

[img][/img]
Old 02-24-2009, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Oops!!! This is my first experience in posting pictures and I seem to have doubled up. Sorry!
Old 02-24-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

I had the last version from Midwest. It was a wonderful plane on just an OS .15 FP. I was careful with the weight and it finished up a little under 3 lbs.

I enjoyed your pics, Bill. If I were to do another I would be tempted to add ailerons too, though I had great fun without them.

Jim
Old 02-24-2009, 09:46 PM
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BobHH
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

The main difference between the early Champs and the MKIII were the adaptation of tricycle landing gear, inverted engine alternative and a narrower fuselage. Also as mentioned the horizontal stab location and either solid or built up and sheeted construction. The Early RC version was very close to the MKIII version with a few light changes. I kind of called it the MKIV as I had the pleasure of working with Hal on its design before he passed. A very knowledgeable modeler with tons of insight!! I still have my original plan I sent him to inspect and approve!!!

Mainly what Hal wanted to change was the replacement of the 3/32 balsa spar with the 3/32 plywood spar. He felt that it needed the additional strength for the hotter engines. He preferred the narrower fuselage because of the smaller gear available and commented it would have a bit less drag and more wind penetration.

All the Champs flew great as well as his other designs. Very stable and forgiving.

Bob Harris
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:02 AM
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cpc625
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the info.

Looks like the Midwest plans win



Charlie
Old 03-22-2009, 06:10 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Hi Folks,
I just picked up this Champ at a swap meet and was wondering if anyone could tell me if they knew which kit this may be (at least it seems to be kit built). Actually, I didn't even know what model this was until seeing it on consignment at a LHS. Also, could anyone shed some light on the flying characteristics?

Thanks in advance
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

I saw the Champ at Lexington also. It appears to be exactly like my Early RC Models Champ, but with ailerons linged onto the wing trailing edge. I meant to ask the seller how it flew, but didn't get around to it. Your model has standard dihedral and should fly great as rudder only. I would be qurious as to how effective the ailerons are.

The one you saw on consignment at your LHS was probably at KC Hobbies in Archdale, NC. If so, that was my first champ. The one I built with ailerons. The ailerons on it were minimally effective. You need to be able to fly the left stick on it as I did. A fun flyer, but it left something to be deired. I actually had a lot of fun taking it to altitude, throttling back, and flying the thermas. I built another from the plans with the proper dihedral and it flys great. I'm looking forward to warmer weather with more thermal activity.

Bill Francis
Old 03-22-2009, 09:15 PM
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seahwk95
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Thanks for the info Bill. Yea, I was a little surprised when I got home and found this thread and saw your name (matching the one at KCH) and was hoping to get your input. It seemed like a well-made kit and somewhat unique (at least to my untrained eye). I also noticed the note you left on your consignment about flying it with rudder and aileron. Should be good practice for me (somewhat of a newcomer to RC) to improve rudder control and not rely completely on ailerons. Again, thanks for the info. I be sure to post on how she flys as soon as I get her up in the air.
Old 03-22-2009, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

With the regular dihedral the rudder will cause the plane to roll, as it was designed to. But the ailerons might not work so well. Ailerons are intended to bank the plane, and dihedral is intended to make the plane stable, i.e., resist banking, except when rudder input is given. Also, I expect you'll get some adverse yaw, meaning that with aileron only the plane will tend to yaw opposite the aileron input.

It may not be as bad as all that, but these are things to watch for. The cure is to make all turns with both aileron and rudder. I would probably set that plane up with rudder coupled to the aileron control, especially if you are a newcomer. That should give you really nice turns and prevent any nasty surprises when you make your first aileron turn with it.

Jim
Old 03-23-2009, 12:35 AM
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Joe Nagy
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Hi Seahawk;

Greetings to you from the warm and windy 'Valley of the Sun'.

I have kits of all 3 versions of Hal's LW CHamp, and have scratch built several, all basically the MW Mk III versions with various little mods. I feel that all RCers' should have a deBolt Champ or SuperCub in their flying stable. They are the gentlest, sweetest flying airplanes ever, I just love them; I fly mine with ST 15 engine with Rev-Up 8 X 3 3/4 prop, taildragger style, to me the perfect set up. Do not add ailerons or bigger engines, although I have seen them fly with the ST 19 & ST 23, [too fast with the 23]. To me it is a perfect design as is. If you want something faster, or ailerons, trike gear, etc., go find/build something else.

The final MW Mk III was sort of a quick build version, of this design, all 3 are basically the same size and configuration, same airfoil, the 1st 50's version was a building challenge, lots of sticks and pieces, the 67 version moved the stab to the top of the fuse, and was an easier build for sure. The Mk III was an easy buid, simple slab sided fuse balsa box with no open structure, and the tail feathers were simple 3/16" sheet, flat with no airfoil, just round off the LE and taper the elevator and rudder, + you could use a F/G or Metal radial engine mount instead of the older hardwood beam mounts. I scratched my last Champ from nothing but sheet balsa to RTF in less than a week; my next one will be electric [brushless] with the new LiPo batteries, and hope to continue my love affair with this wonderful old design by the master hisself, the late and great, Hal deBolt.

Best regards from Glendale, Arizona,

Joe Nagy.
Old 03-23-2009, 07:32 AM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Jim,

I credit our mutual friend with getting me to fly both rudder and aileron (as opposed to mixing in a computer radio).

I don't know if many realize that the large dihedral in old planes had a dual purpose. It provided positive stability. But, it also provided banking when the plane was effectively put into a skid with the rudder.

Bill
Old 03-23-2009, 08:09 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Thanks Guys. I really appreciate the information
Old 03-26-2009, 08:21 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Thanks for the memory , I built this plane at the age of 20 , my day helped me cover it with yellow moncote , afters years of moveing ect , the fuse was destryed but the wings are perfact !!
I haev a few extra "blue Max fusealages " it may be a perfact match for a semi scratch /bash , this plane was a great flyer .
Mine was the midwest live-wire champ , two wheels , I flew it with three channels ect , great great plane
Old 03-26-2009, 08:38 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

LDM,

Where do you fly?



Charlie
Old 03-27-2009, 05:25 AM
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LDM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

Charile I fly at the east Colcaleco high school , I have not joined a club based my both my boys being in travel hockey .
One is going onto college this year so I am planning on getting more involved in local clubs .
Do you fly at the club near Lancaster (unbuilt old highway)????

The only local guy I know was Tommy who use to own "TopGun" hobbies , I have not seen or heard from him in a while .'
I was wondering where all the local guys are on RCU ???
I am usually in the warbird section , you can find one of my current bashes just look up CMP-FW190 fun scale bash , I am bashing this junkey Fw190 with , sliding canopy , retracts , the works
TY
LDM
Old 03-26-2010, 10:38 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

I bought one of these at an estate sale. I've converted it to electric. Does anyone have the CG?

Here is the thread I started about it.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214338
Old 03-27-2010, 09:23 AM
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LDM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

I used 25% of the max cord , its flys like a kite , easiest plane I have even flown , I just bid on one on ebay but lost
Old 03-27-2010, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ

ORIGINAL: Joe Nagy

Hi Seahawk;

Greetings to you from the warm and windy 'Valley of the Sun'.

I have kits of all 3 versions of Hal's LW CHamp, and have scratch built several, all basically the MW Mk III versions with various little mods. I feel that all RCers' should have a deBolt Champ or SuperCub in their flying stable. They are the gentlest, sweetest flying airplanes ever, I just love them; I fly mine with ST 15 engine with Rev-Up 8 X 3 3/4 prop, taildragger style, to me the perfect set up. Do not add ailerons or bigger engines, although I have seen them fly with the ST 19 & ST 23, [too fast with the 23]. To me it is a perfect design as is. If you want something faster, or ailerons, trike gear, etc., go find/build something else.

The final MW Mk III was sort of a quick build version, of this design, all 3 are basically the same size and configuration, same airfoil, the 1st 50's version was a building challenge, lots of sticks and pieces, the 67 version moved the stab to the top of the fuse, and was an easier build for sure. The Mk III was an easy buid, simple slab sided fuse balsa box with no open structure, and the tail feathers were simple 3/16'' sheet, flat with no airfoil, just round off the LE and taper the elevator and rudder, + you could use a F/G or Metal radial engine mount instead of the older hardwood beam mounts. I scratched my last Champ from nothing but sheet balsa to RTF in less than a week; my next one will be electric [brushless] with the new LiPo batteries, and hope to continue my love affair with this wonderful old design by the master hisself, the late and great, Hal deBolt.

Best regards from Glendale, Arizona,

Joe Nagy.

Actually there was another model contrairy to what Joe of Ariz. noted and I showed him such a few years ago. Prior to about 1955 or 1956 the Champ was built for rubebr controll ONLY. After Hal came out with the electric servos, he called the Champ the new name of Controllaire. This was a six channel version. (I showed Joe the originals at the time).

Hal explained to me via telephone how everyone thinks of the ONE model when there were a couple in the very early days. Only one kit came out, but there are a few different versions, all instigated via Hal, and his contacts in the industry. He was trying to stay ahead of the biz.

There was yet another revision to the Champ circa 1960 and was taken care of via revision to some plan matters. Hal was asked to represent the USA in Switzerland for the first international (blow out) meet. He left the revison t the kit up to the emplyees, and did not like what he saw after returning. But steady sales did not alter a thing.

Hal had a big interest into Aerobatic and Pylon racers, but never really came out with a kit for either, in same manner as he flew them. The Great Auction and Going out of Business weekend was not the high-point in his life.


Wm.
Old 03-27-2010, 05:26 PM
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Default RE: Debolt Live Wire Champ


ORIGINAL: LDM

I used 25% of the max cord , its flys like a kite , easiest plane I have even flown , I just bid on one on ebay but lost
Thanks for the CG. I set mine to 30%. I was taxiing around in the school parking lot just now and it lifted off, bout 3-4 feet![X(] I only had maybe 60-70 feet of parking lot and got it back down without hitting anything. So then once I saw how it wanted to fly I did about 5 more and quit while she was intact. Tomorrow is slated for the maden. I had to put 2 2650 mah batteries in the front to balance it out. I should get some crazy flight time.

I'm posting a short vid of the internals and a short motor run up over here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214338

Thanks again for the info.

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