juggler-3310

I just purchased a box of 11 airplane engines at a garage sale recently, and found this one in the box. O&R appears on the front. I discovered that this stands for Ohlsson and Rice. I have absolutely no experience with vintage engines, and was wondering if anyone could confirm if this is in fact a .60 size engine, which I suspect. The engine has good compression, and turns smoothly. I can't tell if anything is missing from it, but I am guessing that it is all there. The glow or spark plug on the top says "CHAMPION VG 2". Based on some preliminary research, the serial numbers on the back indicate that it was probably manufactured at some time in the 1950s.

I would like to get this engine up and running. Can anyone direct me to a web address where they walk you through the process of operating and maintaining these types of antique engines? What type of fuel does this engine use? Is it a gasoline engine, or a glow fuel engine? If it uses gasoline, what octane should be used, and what is the correct mixture of oil to gas? Should castor oil be used in place of automotive oil? Is there anything that I should be wary of in starting or running this engine? Were these reliable engines, and was the power output comparable to the .60 engines that can be purchased today? Any help that you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks.

juggler

jjscott

Are you sure it's a 60 size engine? If it is, it looks like a 1948 O&R 60 front rotor. It is missing the ignition (spark) timer, which fits between the carb front and the prop driver. These were also sold as glow engines. In that case there was a little black metal collar that covered the exposed place where the timer goes. Someone has installed a Champion glow plug in place of the spark plug (VG = glow). When you turn it over you should be able to look in the cutaway portion of that brass ring and see the flat on the crankshaft where it activates the points. If there is no flat on the crank, it is a glow only crankshaft. If it's in good internal condition, it will run on glow fuel.

I remember the big Ohlssons to have the larger plugs with the 3/8 threads. There are adaptors around that screw into the head and allow you to use a standard sized glow plug.

Jim

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Hi,

Jim's assessment appears to be correct. I would caution that if you do run it as a glow to be sure to use a fuel with Castor oil as a lubricant. The old O&R will not last long on current fuels. I believe that Fox still makes fuel with 100% castor. Others may as well. Good luck with your find.

James Fuller

juggler-3310

Thanks for the reply Jim. No, I'm not sure if it's a .60 size or not. I guessed that it is based on the physical size of the engine. It has no gas tank, and the serial number on the back of it is 079361. According to the information in this thread

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...tm.htm#1062223

the serial numbers ranged from 078891 to 080830 for .60 O&R engines manufactured in the 1950s with no gas tank and aluminum head. The distance between the flats on the plug measure 3/8", and there is no adapter in the aluminum head.

beppeVRCS

I remember that in Italy, early '60s, we used a straight 3:1 fuel (75% Methanol and 25% Castor). Only Speed Controline used 4:1 Fuel (80% Methanol and 20% Castor).
At that time we only used Castor Oil as lubricant. I think FOX still produces a mix with 5% Nitro and 28-29% Castor Oil, to be used on FOX 35 engines (and the like) in Control Line.
Ciao
Beppe

beppeVRCS

By the way,
this is how a gasoline O&R should look like.
Does anybody have a full schematic of the electrical system that goes with the engine? I would like to test it, one day or another (the .23 in a Quaker, maybe?).
Ciao
Beppe

big max 1935

My Feedback: (9)

Glad to see that my old serial # list is still some good . Will need to up date it one of these days . The O&R .60 in question has a 1/4" glow plug & should have the ignition cam on the crank (either exposed or under the cover that prys off ). Never saw any .60's with out it . Any O&R timer assy will work on it from one off a .19 on up & maybe even the adjustomatic one . Looks like some are still having fun with the old chugs . CYL, MAX H.

jjscott

OK, here's some info. O&R offered a front rotary valve conversion kit for the sideport engines; this version not pictured.

Jim

optech

My Feedback: (9)

Juggler,

First off, your engine is NOT a conversion. In the Conversions, The sideport intake pipe was removed or cut off and plugged. Because of the way the O&Rs are constructed, it would not be feasible for the home modeler to replace the crankcase so a new crankcase was not included in the conversion kit. Instead, one was instructed to either remove the pipe (If you had the proper tools), or cut the pipe then plug the hole. If I recall, a piece of soft lead was included as a plug.

That would mean your engine is a Factory front rotor. The fact that there is no cover over the timer assembly mounting area means that it was probably not a dedicated glow engine. Checking for a crankshaft flat is not always an indication of this as O&R used up crankshaft stocks until it was depleted. Another indication that your engine was most likely a gas engine and not glow, is the aftermarket Perfect brand needle valve assembly. The stock gasoline needle does not have enough taper to allow adequate flow for Alcohol (glow) fuels. By the time you've backed the stock needle valve out enough to get the engine to run without being too lean, it probably would have fallen out so, the Perfect needle valve was a popular addition.

.60 size O&Rs used a 3/8" THREAD size, NOT bolt size. The .60 size Champion plug is a V-1, when everything went to glow, Champion made a VG-1. Your plug is a VG-2 which is a glow version of the V-2, 1/4-32 spark plug used in the smaller displacement engines. As you said there is no adapter in your head then your engine is a smaller displacement engine. Check for any indication of an anodized color to the head. If there isn't, then your engine is a 19,23, or 29. The rare 33s only came in purple I believe. If the head was blue anodized then it would be a 29. Keep in mind that by this time O&R was fighting desperately for market share as there were more powerful engines available. As such there were very few 19s made as there was almost no demand for it. The 23 was always a popular displacement for O&Rs and 29s made more power so those two were the most popular.

The gas fuel mix for O&R was the typical 3:1 gas to oil but I've had alot of people tell me that 2:1 was better for them??? But, gas runs hotter than glow so I always run 3:1 when running glow fuel in my Ohlssons. I think if you stick to 25-33% castor oil you'll be fine. I've been told that they will withstand up to 5% nitro but I never did it. In fact, the final death of the Ohlssons was the problem of the .29s and .33s popping the cylinders off the crankcases when glow became popular and people started pushing them to try to keep up with the other engines available.

Also, the other problem is the gasket between the steel cylinder fins and the aluminum crankcase junction. It is prone to leaking. especially after the engines sit unused for a long time. I would try running it on straight alcohol and oil first. If there is no leaking, then you might try up to 5% nitro if you desire. If there is leaking it is not going to be an easy fix. The cylinder and crankcase can only be serviced with special tools. George Talent in the Tucson, Az area had some of the factory tools but he was getting up there in years the last time I talked to him several years ago. You might also ask around and see if Don Blackburn is still around as he might be able to service the engine for you.

Hope this all helps,
Mike

big max 1935

My Feedback: (9)

The engine shown is a O&R.60. It is not a conversion .the conversion kits for the .60's came with a ball bearing thrust washer that looked like it came from the front wheel of a bicycle & the plug for the intake was a cork . Nothing was said in the instructions about cutting the old intake off just plugging it .
The 1948 staked on aluminum head .60 sideport (last side port model made ) came with a 1/4" X 32 plug ( no adapter) & all O&R.60's after that .The last model made was the "Purple Head" (RARE !)'
The .29's came first with a aluminum colored head & the last models had a "Blue Head".These were de-tuned mostly by the soft aluminum cylinder to case gasket (one or two). The.33 only came as the "Red Head" .
The first problem with the .29's on up were the connecting rods breaking ,hence the steel rod that didn't break but brought on the next problem of blowing off the cylinders,hence the aluminum washers that lowered compression.Ended up with low power.
The O&R boys were in trouble by then & just never caught up with all the problems !
I still love them though . Max H.

juggler-3310

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I'm learning a lot as we go along. I'd like to get this old engine running because I have a kit for a 96" Lanzo Bomber, and it would be a good match for it I think. Mike, could you share George Talent's contact information? How about Don Blackburn's?

juggler

juggler-3310

Max, in one of your replies you mentioned that "it should have the ignition cam on the crank (either exposed or under the cover that prys off ). Never saw any .60's with out it . Any O&R timer assy will work on it from one off a .19 on up & maybe even the adjustomatic one." Could you direct me to someone who might have one of those timer assemblies?

juggler

Herb Brown

My Feedback: (1)

You can check the VG2 plug by pulling it and looking, but I am pretty sure that all the Champion glow pugs are marked as VG plugs if they are glow plugs. The equivalent spark plug is the Champion V2.
The engine is set up as a typical glow configuration..

jjscott

For the sake of clarity can we agree that there were two types of "conversions"?

1) The conversion kits sold by O&R that converted a side port engine to a front rotary valve engine. The kit included a new front cover with venturi and front rotor crank plus the other necessary parts, and
2) A conversion of an existing ignition engine to glow by removing the timer and running the engine on a glow plug.

Jugglers engine is the second type of conversion, i.e. it probably started out as a front rotary valve ignition engine and was converted to glow.

I'm sorry if there was confusion caused by my mentioning the conversion kits in one of my posts above. There was no intention to suggest that is what Juggler had. A guy named Woody Bartelt from Michigan used to sell repro timers. Someone may know how to contact him. Could have been something like Antique Ignition, or Antique Electric??? Model Engine Collectiors Association (MECA) has a site I think.

Jim

big max 1935

My Feedback: (9)

Aero Electric ,[email protected] He will fix you up . MAX H.

jjscott

Links to SAM site, click on ignition engines page, and Woody Bartelt site:
http://www.antiquemodeler.org/
http://www.woodysengines.com/

Jim

Hossfly

Juggler, I hope to get back here tomorrow after going to my barn and checking a couple magazines, AMA's MA I seem to recall, that have a good explanation about Spark Ignition engines. I will tell you the issues if you will read a Free Flighter's articles. I have run them, actually I started with them when a kid, and have a number of good engines. Once, early '60s, I had almost a 100 of them, but back then I was also into hard core CL and FF competition. I could not afford both competition and collecting. I sold out but have started back a bit.
Now a bit of advice about your Ohlssen and Rice (O&R) 60. Those engines had fairly good pistons and sleeves. OTOH the cast crankcase on the .60s was VERY weak. It handled ignition fairly well, but when switched to glow, it was just too weak. I had several Front Rotary O&R 60s during the early Glow days. Each had the crankcase split on the bottom within less than an hour's running. It was a common complaint about those engines. OTOH as ignition engines they were fairly long lasting.
Anderson Spitfires, Madewell 49s, and even the Super Cyclones were well made and handled glow very well. Of course for those well-healed rich folks, (Not me!) the ORWICK .64 reigned supreme!

Today most sparkers are being run on 3 parts coleman stove fuel, and 1 part 70 weight oil. Some are using castor and methanol. I am trying to gear up for some old-time CL stunt. I will be using my Super Cyclones. I have two. I also have 4 Anderson Spitfire 65s, two NIB. I have 4 Ardens, 1 Bantem .19, and have tried to obtain a Madewell .49. I have missed a couple on the bay thing as they go very high. I really loved mine that I obtained and flew as a glow engine. It was some kind of engine, actually better than the K&B, Foxes, and Foresters back in the '50s.

You will enjoy playing ith your O&R if you treat it correctly. Be sure your mounting is secure and very level.

For all you old engine lovers, you haven't lived until you fly a CL unmuffled Hornet 60 on a big CL Stunter, with the exhaust toward you, during evening just before dark and watch that 3-4" of blue flame coming out of the exhaust. WOW! Loved it!

So juggler, if you are going to do spark ignition, you might find some help at http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php#18
That is a CL forum and they do STUNT there. The Old Time Stunt forums are where to go.

juggler-3310

I may be sending the engine over to Woody Bartelt for a routine maintenance check, and possibly get it converted back to the original spark ignition setup. I'd like to thank everyone for their informative replies. They are greatly appreciated. I love learning about the way this hobby has evolved over the years!

juggler

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Woody Bartelt is still alive and kicking. I just saw him 6 weeks ago and he appeared in good health

annielol33

Hiya all,

I have a great collection that i have been listing on ebay for my dad.  One of the items I have here is an ohlsson "23" engine in the original box with all paperwork including the little postcard which was for warrantee repairs.  I you all need copies of this paper work before its sold please let me know.  It has everything from your conversions that you are talking about to wiring diagram.

You can email me directly [email protected]

Anne

rrengineer

My Feedback: (3)

Just acquired a very nice O&R 60, 1947 vintage (ser no. 52700). It is in very nice condition, but i have a couple of questions. There was a hole drill throught the exhast port about 3/32nds dia. and through both the top and bottom between the inner and middle fin, closer to the middle fin centrally located. What the heck is that there for? Also the is a little radial play in the prop shaft. Only being familiar with modern day R/C motors(I love Enya engines) I don't know if this is O.K. in an older engine. I'm sure it did not leave the factory like that. How much running would cause wear in the prop shaft bushing? Could this be re-bushed? Is it necessary?
Mike MacLean
San Bernardino, CA

rrengineer

My Feedback: (3)

O.K., found out from the previous owner the hole in the exhaust port was likely put there to attach an exhaust extension back in the old days. Also found out from Woody Bartelt that he can re-bush this engine. He says the play in the prop shaft is common and most likely caused by someone using an electric starter. I also asked the previous owner why one of the screws on the timer lever was too long and hitting the ribs on the front crankcase cover. I don't know why I did not see it, but there are three ribs on the cover and two of them are longer than the other one. One of the screws is SUPPOSED to be longer and hit the two longer ribs to limit the timing lever travel so it does not over retard or advance. Heck, I'm the retard. I'm sending the whole thing to Woody to check out.
Mike MacLean

juggler-3310

I thought that some of those who participated in this discussion might like to see the photographs of the resotred engine. Woody Bartelt did a great job! I do have a follow-up question for those of you who operate these engines. I'm considering using this engine in a 96" wingspan Lanzo Bomber, and in order to operate it I have to select a set of ignition components (condenser, coils, resistors, etc.) since I don't have any. Do you have any recommendations on where to purchase these compenents for this engine? Woody has a Model Electric ignition system for about $45.00, and also offers a Chinese version that's lighter for about $35.00. Does anyone have any experience with either of these systems who can give me a suggestion about which one would be a better choice for my application? Thanks for any assistance that you can provide!

juggler

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

http://www.modelflight.com/larrydavidson.html

JamesRice

Greetings,

Could someone point me in the direction of an O & R engine? Rice (Harry T. Rice) was my grandfather. When my parents split up and I moved away, I left behind several O & R engines...they are long gone now, but, I would like to get a few back. It upset my father that I didn't keep my hands on them and I would like to get one for him. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jim Rice
(210) 573-4550
[email protected]