AutoMike

Being 35 years old and after more than 23 of those modeling of some form, I've given up on buying the new modeling products that are on the market for the past few years in favor of more vintage kits and even engines. Is this because of the quality vs. price thing? Maybe its a lack of what I'd call "interesting" subjects. Lack of kits? That one is certainly true. ARFs are fine as trainers at most but I've noticed that with the new high performance 3D and scale ARFs that it has become one big "Dog and Pony Show" mostly. I mean, how in the world can I complement a guy, who has never built a single plane, for a plane he simply bought and screwed together the night before? Now if he has a silk and dope job, chewing glue off his fingers and has a thumb in bandages, I've got to talk with that guy.

Goldberg, the King in my book BTW, Mathews, DeBolt, Cunningham, Andrews, Kraft, Fox...the names go on and on but my point is that it used to be that a person's name was on their products. If It didn't measure up you could bet that a modeler would tell them directly. There is so little of this left today that I'm really worried what will become of this hobby.

So I've started Vintage Hobbies. Now it's nothing very grand or even original, but I buy and sell a few things every so often on the Bay to pay for my own interest in the hobby. Some things I really hate to let go but I'm trying not to become a collector, I said "trying". If it is out of production, i'm interested in it.

Now because of this, I've found a renewed passion for the hobby. I decided that I wanted to revisit C/L and that I would build one with all vintage 50's material. It has taken a few months but I've finally got everything together. I've bought a Testors Freshman 19 kit NIB as well as a new O&R 23 with decals and I have all the hardware, lines, handle and even the slim Veco smooth hub narrow wheels that are period correct and cant wait to get started. I'll post pictures as I build it.

My wife Sallie, thought I had gone nuts at first, but what I was doing was paying for what I bought so after awhile she has kind'a gotten into it too. We now go to swap meets together and she is getting good at spoting the really valuable stuff. She said "It's easy...I just look for stuff I'd throw away and you buy it"..hum, go figure.

I've got a NIB O.K. Cub .099 and I'm trying to find a good R/C subject for it. I was thinking Mini Mambo but I'm in need of ideas. Was there any Live Wire planes that were sized for an .09? Maybe I need to look at converting some old timer free flight design. Any Ideas?

John Cole

My Feedback: (4)

Mike,
Nice post. Yes, I share your opinions about all of the cookie cutter models at the field today. Oh well, I guess they're having fun.

I'm not very familiar with the Live Wire models, but I think a good candidate for your .099 would be a Goldberg 1/2A Skylane. I flew one on a Golden Bee long ago, but always wished I had more power. Perhaps the Cub you have would be the ticket.

John

BobHH

My Feedback: (18)

Mike, I'm currently flying (for the last 6 years) a Minnie Mambo with an OK Cub .049. It has an Ace single channel pulser in it. I quit counting at 100 flights and she is still going strong. I also flew one of my Little Esquires with an OK Cub .099 but I has some issues with it pulling fuel from the Perfect 1 oz tank so I replaced it with a Medallion .049. It also has a Ace single channel pulser in her. I also fly single channel escapements also. Here are some pictures of my Little Esquire and DQA.

I too enjoy the older models and have some fun at the flying field answering the questions how a single channel airplane flies and how did I iron on the silk and dope covering!!

Bob Harris

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Mike,
The Debolt Livewire Trainer of 1952 was designed for a Cub .099 engine.

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Hi,
I too am uncomfortable with the direction that our hobby has gone. If someone had asked what my hobby was my response would probably been flying R/C airplanes. Turns our that my hobby is actually building and then flying model airplanes. Not only have kits vanished from the market all of the accessories for scratch building are going the same way. Things like canopies, landing gear,
and so on. None of that is the fault of the manufacturers as they are responding to demand. Searching will show that there is a growing segment of old time kit cutters out there, so there must be some demand for kits yet.
The LiveWire Trainer is, as HighPlains suggested, a very good .09 sized craft. It was originally flown with a Mills .08 diesel. It needs to be built light to fly well on an .09 engine. deBolt also kitted the LiveWire Rebel in about 1962. It is a somewhat smaller model with a 42" wingspan that shows a K&B .09 on the plans.
What is your Ebay account name? I am always interested in older kits.

James Fuller

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Hi again,

In reading my previous post describing an old deBolt kit, it was a LiveWire Yankee that deBolt released in 1962, not a Rebel. The Rebel was a cleaned up and lightened version of the LiveWire trainer at about the same size. It might also make a good flier for the 09 if kept light. The Rebel was my first successful R/C model back in 1960. It flew with single channel radio with an escapement driven rudder. Was powered by a Fox .15.
sorry for the mistake.

James Fuller

EloyM

My Feedback: (194)

Also unhappy with the changes in our hobby - sad but true.
I can not help with any hardware, kits, etc, but I do have a fair collection of schematics for old time radio equipment, from single channel up to Orbit, Kraft, EK, etc. Contact me if you are in the need of some, I may have it.
[email protected]

AutoMike

I hate to start yet another ARF bashing thread, so I'll just say that I think they are a good thing, up to a point, for the hobby. However, too much of a good thing can be bad for ones heath, or the hobby's.

Afterall, my first R/C plane was a Cox EZ Bee that I bought with my paper route money back in 87, yes I can hear you gray beards laughing. After the plane had been in every tree in the neighborhood and became to heavy from epoxy repairs, i used the baby bee engine on Glen Spickler's Quickie 200's. They were great, cost only 20 bucks and I went thru 4 of them that summer learning to fly, what fun. Then it was a Goldberg Eaglet 50, followed by a Indy R/C Cosmos 20, Hobby Shack Foam Cardnal 177, then back to kit building with a Midwest Aerosport 20 then a Sig Wonder with a TD .15, WOW that was a mistake for me at that time! I remember trying to get that 100mph bullet to go dead stick by flying upside down hoping that the fuel wouldnt draw from the tank. The plane survived and got an OS 10fp right away. By this time I was in high school and discovered girls and cars and only kept one foot in the hobby. The club and the "old guys" I flew with, they were all really in their 30's and 40's, close to my age now, had moved on to another field and I lost touch. I was married by 22 and it wasn't till I was nearly 30 that I got back into the hobby full swing again. To my horror, a few of the clubs older members that had given so much of their time to me, had passed away. However Boyd and Charlie were still around and flying. These two where the ones I stuck to like glue back in the late 80's. Looking back, I see now that they had a ball inventing all sorts of "test" for me while teaching me to fly. I remember trying to earn my club wings and they told me I had to fly loops and rolls and inverted to earn them. I was terrified, not knowing they were yanking this kids chain and laughing behind the parked cars while I passed up and down the flight line, wondering if I could do it. Just then a fellow club members plane, a Druaplane 40, ran out of gas and not knowing what to do with a dead stick plane, yelled for some help in landing it. I was nearby and I most always landed deadstick, so I offered to help and he gave the radio to this 14yr old kid and without thinking about it much, I just glided the plane back to the runway, landed and it rolled to a stop right at our feet. Well, Boyd and the others just roared with laughter, came to the flight line and with a sturdy pat on the back, handed me my wings saying that, with that performance I deserved my wings. I still wear those wings to the field today. Boyd passed away a few years ago now but not before I got to fly with him a few last times. He met my wife and loved to tell embarrassing stories about me from the past to her.

Charlie, is and old school C/L and R/C flier and is still alive and well. I hope to surprise him this spring with the O&R powered Testors Freshman and see if I can coax him back out to the field to fly it.

My username on the bay is vintagehobbies1 and I just sold a new O&R .33 with its box and paperwork. Man, I hated to let that one go but like I said, I'm trying not to become a collector.

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

When the word "Debolt" is mentioned I must jump in! I see some familiar names here! The Debolt Live Wire Trainer was for the .09 engine as has been stated. My Dad used a .075 diesel in his and his best friend used a Mckoy .09 diesel. Mine is an electric conversion with a .075 diesel dummy engine in it. Now for the "Rant"! I must admit it was an off the shelf foam electric Super Cub that got me back into the hobby after a 40 year absence. It wasn't long till I missed the old Debolt models my dad flew so I went in search of a Live Wire Trainer to restore but finally had a kit cut and I built it. Then I started restoring my Dads LW Cruiser which is about complete. All of the people in the flying clubs around here with the exception of one person who is about 80. Buys a RTF or an ARF on Monday and comes to the field and says I built it over the week. It seems the term BUILT now means install a motor,radio,servos and maybe hook up some control surfaces. Most of the people around here think it's kinda silly to spend that time building a model when you can buy one off the shelf and they definitely think I am crazy for spending all this time restoring old models. Can't help it! I love the old stuff! By the way, I need a Debolt Champion to build or restore preferably the first version. Cheers! Bill

AutoMike

Its strange how that over the years, the view people have of the hobby is just simply to fly planes. In my view, flying the model represents about 1/3 of the hobby. It takes a true craftsman to build a model well from a kit or plans, also one to apply the finish, be it Monokote, tissue or silk, and a truly devoted individual to develop the skill to pilot one safely that he has spent so much effort building and finishing. Maybe its what is viewed as personal achievement and pride is whats skewed out'a wack with some.

AutoMike

OMG Bill! with seeing that radio in your photo I now know why they started making the radio tray..

BobHH

My Feedback: (18)

Well, I had the honor of working with Hal DeBolt on the Early RC Models version of the Champ. A great guy with loads of information. I still have the approval plan he OKed for the design. Unfortunately he passed away before he could build the first kit produced I sent him as promised. We are loosing this type of knowledge it seems everyday. Yes ARFs are needed in this hobby but to assembly (NOT BUILD) one does not require the pre-existing knowledge of construction skills required in a kit built model. I just like to build my own. This way I know how it is built and what to expect from the model. Here is a picture of the prototype Champ. Yep I could have covered her in silk but the transparenet covering sure looks good!!

Bob Harris

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

Bob, We have emailed on several occasions but I have always wanted to tell you that I have admired your persistence in educating people to the "Old Timers". James, I have always read your post and know you are an avid Debolt fan and appreciate you interest in Debolt history and would like to share it with you any time. HighPlains was instrumental in helping me with my Live Wire Trainer. For those who haven't seen or know my history or Debolt history it is. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_72...tm.htm#7285298 AutoMike You are right that the ARF/RTF has a purpose after all I would not be here right now if it were not for it. But there is a satisfaction that continues to call me from past to save the past. That is why I like to restore models that have been cast aside because thanks to my Dad who is still kicking strong at 82 I have actually lived some of the storys they can tell. Cheers! Bill

Joe Nagy

My Feedback: (3)

Hi Mike;

Greetings to you from the ever warm 'Valley of the Sun'.

Gee Wow! I really enjoyed your postings! You are my type of guy, although I just turned 65, and have been modelling almost 60 yrs. I too am disappointed with the new hobby industry offerings, [yes, I too have a few ARFs, buy'em cheap at swap meets], and I just plane luv the older kit model designs and older glow engines, and buy as many older Super Tigres as possible, especially the Blue head 60s and the big 71s. But two of my favourite flying combos are: Hal deBolt's Live Wire YANKEE, powered with an OS 10 swinging a Rev UP 8 x 3 3/4 prop.....simply the most fun I've ever had with an airplane, & #2; Hal deBolt's Live WIre CHAMP powered with a Super Tigre 15, again swinging that same magic Rev Up 8 x 3 3/4 prop, possibly the sweetest flying RC ever.

Anyways, I hope our paths X someday, as it seems we have similar interests, and seem to be on the same page. And my wife too supports my interests, and even scours the eBay listings looking for older kits, such as the deBolt Live Wire series, and so far has found for me 2 pairs of genuine old timey wire spoked wheels for the WWI type Bipes, etc., while canvassing garage/yard sales on weekends. Oh yes, you mite try the OK 099 on a Live Wire YANKEE, and if you do, let us know how you liked it. WIll close for now, best regards from Glendale, Arizona,

Joe Nagy

AutoMike

Holy smoke! Thanks fellas, I'm convinced I need a DeBolt plane for the O.K. Cub to look right in, but now which one? The Trainer and Champ are great but how has a pic of the Yankee? I'll poke around in my 50's and 60's mags for the Demco adds and see what i can find.

Sallie claims that i'm and old soul and I guess I just need to accept that she might be right. She thinks that I have a past life and pour myself into anything vintage because of it. I think I just like the challenge of building and flying models that made you have to really learn to do things right to find any success. Marketing today tells the new perspective modeler "Dont worry..Everything you need and need to know is in this one box!" And i've talked to more than a few that wanted my help and when I try to offer a bit of advice on engine tuning, what fuel to use or proper care and storage of fuel and batteries, I've had some tell me that "The box doesn't say anything about that" and just ignore actually learning something and fly the plane straite to oblivion, toss the left overs in the trash and are never seen again? And the industry can't understand why they can't make any money? Great! I'm ranting again....sorry, better here than the field I guess. Forgive me and let me get back to planes.....

I usually build over the winter and last winters project was a CG Falcon III with a Fox .40. Flew like a dream but I dont care for the new EZ style Fox carbs, but I can live with it. I just really like the two needle ones like I have on my old Fox .45. This winter I have slated an old (to me anyway) Ace 4-120 Bipe and I have a YS 120 AC from the early 90's that I plan to power it with. I've got stashed away, a pair of 120 size BJ floats that would look just great under it at the lake. I'll close by including a pic of me and the Falcon and thank you all again for your ideas and comments.

AutoMike

Oh, Yep, Lauren is a chip off the ol' block! And the third pic is of me offering some flight time with one of the kids attending that summers fun fly.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

While you can find tons of articles spanning decades written by Hal deBolt in old magazines, and talk to people that actually knew him, through the power of this forum you can still read his posts.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/sear...Bolt&top=20000

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

Automike, The LW Trainer original weight was posted as 35 oz WITH radio an to use any .09. It was originally single channel. You don't have to build or use the flite box and you can also use the small receivers and serrvos. Mine weighs between 38-40 oz depending on which battery I use. It is about 4 1/4" wide and a lot of unused space so you could make it more narrow if you wanted to shed some weight. The LW Trainer with the .09 was just a slow flying Trainer and was very forgiving however it does not fly well with a lot of horsepower with out some balance and incidence changes. I added a little power to mine so I could take it off the grass. I never saw an original one ROG because in the 50s all the fields were plowed up or they were wire grass of broom straw. The Rebel posted weight is 21oz WITHOUT RC equip and calls for an .074-.09. The Champ will be to heavy for a .09 it is 56" and calls for a .15-.19. Here is a few of them. Cheers Bill

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

Here are a few Debolt pics I posted on here last year. Even a couple of the Master himself! http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_72...tm.htm#7285367

Trisquire

Bill, Do you think landing gears, in those days, served a purpose or were they just there for cosmetic reasons?

Tom

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

Oh, I think they definitely had a purpose then. A single channel will take off beautifully if you have a place to do it. Here is an example of the fields in this area in the 50s. My LW Trainer takes off great on a closely mowed field.

billmod12

My Feedback: (1)

Here is the only pic of a LW Yankee I have. It called for a .074-.09 and I think it had a 42 inch span but I really can't remember. I never liked the looks of it but I sure would not turn one down if one comes available to restore. It had a swept back fin and a pointed nose. I bid on this one on ebay a couple of years ago but didn't win it. Here is a LW Rebal as well. Cheers Bill

deckape

Mike

I enjoyed your thread on liveing the past life on models of a bygone era. I,m like you all i do is build old vintage model aircraft I dont own not a one of these ARFs My personal oppinion to the fellows who like to invest in ARFs is that they dont want to spe4nd the time in sitting down getting thier fingers *****ed with T pins and covered with Glue. No one wants to tsake the time. I,mm 66 years old Have been building models since I was 6 I started out on the old Cleveland Kits My Father bought for me when I was once young. I own about 170 old vintage kits that I built mostly all of them are 3 line Controll line kits Berkley, Sterling, As of now as you noticed from my new thread on the Goldberg P6E HaWK This is a sample of what I build. Last week I flew my Sterling Great Lakes 2T trainer, with a McCoy 19 installed. These new ARFs today are costly specially the electric jobs on the market today In todays world every one wants instant gradification like everything on the snap. I enjoy the smell of Dope and Ambroid glue and *****ing my fingers with T pins and peeling off the glue off my fingers you have a great thread here it might wake up a lot of fellas out there into building
Franklyn Day
RETIRED U.SNAVY BMC[8D]

landeck

My Feedback: (1)

I am looking at my Sterling Great Lakes Trainer right now. I built it in 1970, covered it with silk and dope, and have a Fox engine in it. For the last 20 years it has been hanging on the wall of my den. It is my favorite CL model. I have been building CL since 1952 and RC since 1973 but the last few planes have been ARFs which caught my fancy. I just finished assembling a GP RV-4 quarter scale which I hope to maiden next week. Taking your time and working for perfection with an ARF can be fun too.

Bruce

jaymen

Nice thread going here, good DeBolt side bar too, thanks for the pictures, they are great! Anyone remeber when Pappy planted his plane into the canopy of one of the Blue Angels planes at the Nationals at Los Alamitos?
The USN Commander was not upset in the least, those were the good old days for sure.

One thing I do not miss is the awful balsa and die crushing that all kits had back then. Most Top-Flite kits were awful, the parts didn ot fit right on many of them. Goldberg kits would often have badly warped leading or trailing edge stock, or punk balsa for spars. Guillows kits were just not suited for rubber power, well at least the scale war birds were not, and Sterling kits were very vague in the instructions, and had poor die cutting. Midwest Kits were hit-or miss, but often had you sculpting huge blocks of balsa a-la Michelangelo! All that said, you can tell I bought and built quite a few of these kits. I used to like Comet kits because at least I had control of how well the parts were cut, but they often used rock balsa for the printed sheet wood.
The first decent kits I built were the ones by Sal Taibi, Competition Models, those were nice quality balsa, and everything fit. Then I found Airtronics kits to be very high quality as well with band sawed parts and selected balsa.

Because of the poor balsa and die cutting, early on I started building from plans, we called it scratch building, as it actually took less time than re-cutting all the bad pieces from a kit! This led to designing our own planes, mainly to make them simpler to build.

If only they had the lazer cutting we have today back then. But thank goodness for Bob Harris, his Early R/C kits are awesome, in terms of balsa quality, plans, and the perfectly cut parts...it just does not get any better. You get the fun of building old school style, the wood is a joy to work with, and you could not cut it any closer to fit, even if you were scratch building. The best part is you don't have to pay ridiculouse prices for vintage kits that were not that great of quality.