ChopperMike

I recently picked up an O.S. S-4S escapement on ebay which I originally thought of just adding to my collection of old model airplane gear. Now I'm considering using it in a Coronet 150 I acquired recently. The airplane is one my dad who just went into a nursing home had started many years ago. The wing is built and covered, fuse was never started as far as I know, I have a very fragile but readable MA Plans Service plan to work off of.

I'm wondering how practical an idea this is. I've never flown rudder only, closest thing I come to that is 2 channel Mach None I had years ago. Actually I'm currently building another from plans I found online to use one of the many Cox engines I've scored recently. What I might do if I decide to go ahead with this is set it up for 3 channel control using a conventional servo system and then see if it can be trimmed to fly (and land) properly with only all or nothing rudder control. The radio will unfortunately have to be my DX-7 with a solid state switch to control the escapement.

I don't know, maybe I should just go with 3 channel control and forget the rudder only. In any case the power plant will most likely be brushless since with the exception of the Cox engine RC and Cox and Fox engine C/L models I'm building, I don't have any desire to go back to glow. I would use a timer that the C/L electric guys use so the engine would simply shut off just like an engine running out of fuel.

What do you think? How difficult is it to fly with all or nothing rudder and no throttle or elevator? Obviously if you go back far enough this is all you had althopugh that doesn't mean it was easy. Especially when you factor in the unreliability of the radio systems of the day. That's why I'm thinking the 3 ch initially until I get things sorted out. I'd hate to invest all that time into a model and have it wadded up on it's maiden!





Mike

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Hi,

It is not too difficult to fly rudder only providing that the plane is straight. I don't remember the coronet model you refer to but if it is a single channel model it should do ok. Be sure to balance it properly as tail heavy will kill you. A test glide into the wind can tell you a lot about how it will fly as well.
I built a 3/4 size Live Wire Trainer a few years ago and flew it with an escapement and it was a ball. I could do rolls and an occasional loop with it. You will really enjoy it.

James Fuller

gene6029

Mike, iwas probably bidding on the same one just a few days ago. i quit @ $25 i think. I did pick up a bonner escapement tho. I'd go for it on the single channel escapement if you never flew one. I relate it to some what controlled free flight. At least i wont be the only one chaseing after a model when the escapement slips or the rubberband runs out!!!.....Gene

ChopperMike

I don't believe this airplane was designed as single channel. The plans show servo rails and show a separation of the stab and elevator.

I think I may have a problem with the escapement I have. It doesn't seem to have the action necessary for rudder control. It appears that it holds the last position. If I put some torque on it to simulate the rubber motor and then manually depress the armature as if the coil was energized, it moves to a position but when the armature is released it stays there. I always understood that the way an escapement worked was one press and hold, left rudder. Two presses and hold, first left rudder then right rudder. In either case when released it came back to neutral. This one definitely doesn't do that. I'm thinking this was used for throttle control because it seems to switch between one of 3 positions. It also doesn't look like the pictures I've seen of escapements. It has a plastic wheel with 4 teeth on the outside set 90 degrees apart and 4 more teeth slightly inside of those. The 2 sets are offset from each other 45 degrees. The ones I remember seeing had a double ended ratchet arm with a metal toothed disc. Also this one does not use a torque rod it has an arm with a hole it it like a servo.

I think I'll put this escapement in my display case and if I do build the Coronet 150 I'll use a 3 channel control with servos.




Mike

Gonnacrash

My Feedback: (10)

Mike,
Wow...... you're bringing back FUN from the past ! 1st R/C was a "SPIRIT"
with about 50ish W/S... didn't know zip about what to do.... click once for
left and twice for right controlled via a "Pixie" . Hours and hours of fun
Get off midnight shift fly in the AM till wind came up or sand fellings in
my eyes.... Loops... "spins".... it was fun....fun... still have the wing
and plans are some where. Street rods seem to take many summer
days now...need to do a little shuffle and do some flying.. Good Luck
you'll enjoy !!
Don-Basehor, KS

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Here is a thread on flying with rudder or rudder/throttle control using a 4 channel trainer that will populate the club flying field near you this coming spring. Having an elevator does allow bailing out if you run into problems. Anyway, an easy way to build experience with rudder control only.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7831764/tm.htm

bmustang

My Feedback: (4)

I had a few flights with escapement control in the 60's. There were a couple of kinds of escapements. "Self neutralizing" escapements worked sequentially. Press the button and hold and the rudder went in one direction and when you released the button it went back to neutral. Press again and hold, it went in the other direction and back to neutral when you released the button. You had to either remember which way you turned last to know what turn was coming up next or else just think of two pushes and hold to repeat a turn in the same direction or a single push and hold to go the other way.

"Compound" escapements went (usually) to the right with a single push and hold. When you released the button, the escapement passed thru neutral, then thru left rudder momentarily, then stopped at neutral and stayed there until the next push. When you pushed twice and held the second push, it cycled thru the right turn position, thru neutral and stopped at the left turn position until you released the button. So it was push once and hold for right, and push twice and hold for left.

Since control was not proportional, rudders had rather small surface area and single channel models were designed to be pretty stable. (Some wiseguys described single channel R/C as "free flight occasionally disturbed by a radio signal" and that was when it worked! Often enough, it stayed free flight!). The designs took into account that an airplane trimmed for level flight when going straight will drop its nose in a turn. So the idea was to trim for a shallow climb under power. A turn held for a short time would bring the nose down some and on release of the rudder command, the wings would level and the model would resume the shallow climb. When it got pretty high, you could hold a turn longer and it would gradually go into a spiral dive and also build up excess airspeed. If you built up enough speed, the model would loop when you neutralized the rudder. Or, you could go to opposite rudder and hold that and the model could be made to do a kind of barrel roll. If you were spiraling to the right (after one push and hold) you could just release and do another single quick press and hold and you could catch the escapement's second position for the opposite rudder. If you were spiraling to the left, almost the exact same release-and-press again would go thru neutral and then to the right (now opposite your spiral) to get your roll.

This all depended on having the balance and trim correct and you had to practice to get the timing right for these maneuvers.

Some compound escapements had a 3rd position. 3 presses and hold after the 3rd one and the rudder would stop almost back to neutral but this would hold a second torque rod off its neutral and hold the elevator a little up. This was called "kick-up elevator". That you could actually flare for a landing was a big deal in those days. Without that, landing was more about getting the airplane aimed at a safe spot then hoping for the best.

Note that any of the button pushes, one, two or three, would end up making the escapement complete a full revolution and pass thru all the control positions on the way. The number of pushes just determined where it would stop along the way, left, right or up (if you had it) and always continue on and stop back at neutral when you released and stayed off the button for a second or so.

Rubber powered escapements did not have a lot of torque but could store one or two hundred turns which was plenty for short flights. I used to limit the fuel supply to have no more than about a 30 second engine run. That way, if the contraption didn't work, the model would not fly too far away and I would still have a prayer af getting it back. I was still in "test mode" then but if I'd stayed with escapements longer and succeeded in getting reliable operation, I would have gone to longer engine runs. Even with the short flights I had, I managed a few of those loops and rolls. I had gotten a galloping ghost airplane ready to fly but managed to buy a Micro Avionics proportional system and started to learn to fly the way we do now.

So I put the galloping ghost airplane up for sale without having flown it. But nobody bought it and it sat around unused. After I had acquired some skill with "digital proportional", for the heck of it, I tried flying the GG job one day and everything worked pretty well. It had a "sort of" proportional rudder and elevator and a throttle that was "positionable" to about 5 different settings. This was very much compromised compared to "full house propo" but vastly better than escapements.

At that time, "digital propo" was relatively expensive and single channel was quite a bit less so.

gittarpikk

Shear Delight!


That is how I would describe my old R/O flying.

When I was a kid ....yeah way back when.... I used to build a basic cabin FF (looks like Dicks Dream) and throttle a Cox 049 to barely get the plane (sitting at a slight positive attitude on its tri gear) to lift off and slowly climb out in a gentle circle. Well, that FF experience taught me well how to set up for R/O as I just built another with a rudder "trim tab" actuated with an Ace R/O pulse actuator.


Just fire er up, throttle setting for a gentle climb (no turn and just short of stalling -which in a gentle turn, gives you just the right amount of elevator effect) Prior to powered flight though, you need to trim for a straight (real close to stall) glide. The key to it all is "real close to stall" which allows a quick blips for directional control and a gentle stall if the blip was much duration. A spin results in a hard , continuous blip and sometimes if you get it just right, a barrel roll or a loop will entail.

landings can be timed (fenaggled) to come out of a spiral and release all just before plane straightens out right over runway at maybe 6" altitude and in exact same heading as runway and into wind.... and "mushes" onto a two point main gear landing..Talk about timing! I did this once with an astrohog flying rudder motor and elevator servo elevator locked up at 3/4 up. It was a "walk in the park" It teaches you about the natural flying trim of a plane.


Try that...accomplish it....and you are now graduated into the great clan of OT rudder flappers....[8D]

ukengineman

I started out with single channel/escapement flying in the early 60's and had a lot of fun. The main thing is to think of it as a way of making occasional corrections to a free flight model to prevent it flying away (although they sometimes did!). I don't know the Coronet 150, it is important that the model is capable of stable free flight. Sometimes we trimmed them out as free flight models with short engine runs before flying them single channel radio.

ChopperMike

It's an old timer so it should be a stable platform.

I've decided to not to ahead with the idea. I may still build the model for 3 channel servo control since the the wing is already built and covered but it's going on the back burner. I got laid off last week so I don't want to stick a bunch of money into a project now. I have a slew of other projects to keep my mind off things. I think I'll put together a display with the escapement to add to my collection of other stuff.




Mike

jaymen

A Bonner Vari-Comp is about the best escapement to use if you decide to do a single channel escapement ship. Like all escapements, it must be cleaned and lightly oiled, the contacts ( if used) for cascading need to be shiny copper, and the correct rubber band makes all the differance, along with a nice and free torque rod and control surface hinge.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

Good description of escapement flying, Bmustang.
I learned R/C on Babcock radios, compound escapement with the kick up elevator. Although we never tried it, we thought 'kick down' might be more useful to kill stalls. It seemed like we were always having to use rudder commands to bring the nose down so we didn't always end up flying where we wanted to!

2doggies

Sounds like the escapement you have is a throttle escapement. I've used these in the past with a compound one for the rudder that has a contact that switched to the throttle escapement when you called for it. Rudder only is really free-flight with a bit of control. Its FUN!

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Actually it sounds like a Bonner SN escapement. While it could be used for throttle control as Bonner did with his Smog Hog in 1956, it was also used to control the rudder on many small models. You just had to remember which direction was next when you pushed the button. To go the same direction as the previous control, you quick blipped to skip though the unwanted direction.

jaymen

I have a Babcock that is self neutralizing, and has five stops: 1. neutral, 2. right, 3. left, 4th stop just before neutral, finger touches lug to trigger another escapement. 5. 2nd nuetral 180 degrees away from 1st neutral.

My questions are:

1. What is the 5th position for, the second neutral?
2. This thing trips the cascaded escapement evertytime it cycles, which would cause the motor to go either high or low with every rudder command, which cannot be correct, what gives with that?

dennis

My Feedback: (90)

I used 3 escapements in quite a few later S/C models. Normal was 1-right 2-left 3 up 4-down and 5 or quick blip was throttle dontrol(3 position) finallly got a pulser that did the sequencing for me and it made life a little easier.
dennis

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Hi Jay

Babcock made a unit that was called a SuperCompound. The four positions were: beginning from neutral, 1 pulse right rudder, 2 pulse down elevator, 3 pulse left rudder, and 4 pulse up elevator, then back to neutral. Quick blip gave motor control. It was a Ken Willard design using the Babcock compound to get a poor mans neutral. The same brass follower that was used for rudder on the compound was the same. The follower for the elevator was very strange looking and I don't think that I have the ability to describe it. There should be one around my shop. If it can be located I'll send a picture to you.

James Fuller

jfuller

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry,

The last post should have read "poor mans multi" not "poor mans neutral"

James Fuller

TommyWatson

My Feedback: (1)

I have a set of OS single channel servos. I used the same servos for my first RC flight back in the 60's. I built a replica of this model and fly it regularly with normal servos. But I need to build a relay driver to use the OS servos.

I am also building a .049 single channel model and I would like to use a rubber band escapment. I have looked in Ebay but there are none there at the moment. Does anyone have a good escapment they want to sell. Where else can I look to find one. I don't need a compound or 3 position escapment, just a normal rudder control.

Here is a link to my first RC flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcz0C2UoJdY


Regards

rcacro

The wiring for the 4th position was arranged so that the signal onvoltage from the receiver was passed thru the 4th position contact to the 2nd (engine) escapement only when the when the 4th position was commanded and held in that position. If the 4th position waspassed when the escapement was justreturning to neutral there would not bea signal from the receiver to operate the engine escapement.

John W.

dennis

My Feedback: (90)

one of the best escapements for small 1/2A type S/C models was the citizenship SE-2. If you find one build a 1/2A Esquire, Trisquire,Mambo etc and go have some fun.
dennis

JMP_blackfoot

In 1962, Ken Willard described his "Poor Man's Multi" system, providing for rudder, up and down elevator and triggering of a motor control escapement, all in a single modified Babcock MkII escapement.
It was probably the ultimate development in rubber escapements.
Rename the attachment .zip from .txt to read the article he published in the 1962 American Modeler Annual.
I have made a little pushbutton single-channel system from a $29 2.4GHz Hobbyking radio, using a regular servo in escapement mode (push and hold for right, push-release-push and hold for left).
I have more than 20 flights with it so far with total reliability, and will be flying it at the VRCS Kentucky Bluegrass Festival this week-end. It is pure pleasure
See the thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9741452/tm.htm
I can give circuit details to interested modellers.

felliott7329

Chopper,
Escapements? Really? YOU BET!!! the most fun I've EVER had was flying rudder-only and rubber band driven escapements. I could talk for hours about the challenges and fun!

On the internet, Google "Gimlet by Phil Kraft." This was my favorite. Notice it is a LOW WING design. Very stable and easy to fly. All the rudder onlyes were glide tested. If not, generally they crashed. Hand launch into the wind like you are trimming a glider, that is, a long, stable glide. After all, you have no engine control except how much fuel you have on board so, once the engine quits, you are dead stick - a glider - with only rudder control. Try a spot landing contest with THAT!

So, bottom line is, build it straight (I never did master that), keep it light, glide trim for straight, no stalls, glide, moderate climb under power, and, the most important: DON'T FORGET TO WIND YOUR ESCAPEMENT RUBBER BETWEEN FILGHTS ! ! !.

The Nationals had a category for rudder only with a pattern you had to finish before you add in any stunting, etc.

I really encourage you to build and fly rubber escapement rudder only. "Course, you could always fly rudder only with proportional set, but simply isn't the same and takes a LOT of the challenge away.

Of course, the absolutely most important thing is HAVE FUN WITH IT!!!

God bless,

Peaches

jaymen

I have a SCE here in stock, it's a Single Channel Emulator. This little gem by Phil G is wired into a single channel radio. You remove all the old electronics and only keep the on/off switch and the push-button (key). The SCE has a header connector so it plugs right into a Futaba style module, I use the Orange RX DSM2 version. You use a modern receiver and 2 servos with an ESC, or three servos and a 4.8 volt battery.

You get rudder, kick-up elevator, and 3 position throttle control. Behaves exactly like an escapement in that the controls cycle through after you let off the button. No rubber band to go bad, or unwind. The Emulator is fully programmable: servo reversing, servo throw, compound or self neutralizing, select-able percentages for the three position throttle, select-able run times for ESC to emulate an engine. All the look and feel of the old single channel equipment with modern reliability and you can use it to fly electric planes.....what's not to like about that?

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

I still have a couple of escapements from the early 60's and think about using them from time to time. Then I think better of the whole project when I remember how unreliable they were. The SCE sounds like fun though.

Most people today can't even imagine flying with RO or even with any of the kick functions. It would be fun to have a RO airplane to demo.