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RE: WACO YMF
edited.
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RE: WACO YMF
I didn't say Bill was a Communist.
The great USA also has no corner on fighting communism alone either. I said "Trying to make sure no one makes a fair dime is "communist". endquote. That's a concept. In the same statement I said "As long as no one is "Exploiting" the Brotherhood is most important." I am not party to any chain of command "here". |
RE: WACO YMF
damifino & skylarkmk1
Thanks for the information I will call Sig Monday and order the 5/32 balsa. Want to here something funny? I use to be a cabinet builder I could figure out a material list fire up the table saw and in about two weeks have a set of cabinet ready to install now I'm having a time figuring out a material list for this Waco and will probly take me a year or so to finish (well I think remember reading you never finish just stop for a wile) Any way I'll be pride of my self when all parts are cut out and ready to build. You must get GREAT satisfaction building from scratch. |
RE: WACO YMF
Just for the record. The Pica 1/5 scale WACO YMF that was originally kitted by David Platt, was subsequently sold to Pica Models of Miami Florida. When Pica elected to end their business, the rights to all their model airplane ventures was sold to L.M. Cox Corp. Cox subsequently elected to release the old Pica models as ARF airplanes. Shortly afterward, Cox made a donation to the AMA of the plans to the kit version of these model airplanes. The plans and the rights to the same now are property of the AMA. Ownership of these have been passed along, unbroken since they were first released by David Platt. Pica never relenquished the ownership of these items until selling the rights to Cox. Bankruptcy, or the lack thereof would have no bearing in this case, since the ownership was legally sold to another entity.
The parts templates had never existed prior to the WACO Brotherhood making a gift of the templates to the AMA. This undertaking was performed by members of the WACO Brotherhood (an unchartered not for profit organization) at no cost to the AMA. The gift of these parts drawings was made in January 2007. The ownership of these parts drawings is without question, since it is common knowledge that the parts drawings never existed prior to this date. And the proof of the existance of these parts is unquestionable with regard to the date of publishing of the parts on RCU. This publication would predate any effort that anyone might make to make a commercial kit of this model in this scale, and using these parts outlines as a basis for manufacturing a model kit from them. I honestly believe that this would prevail in any court of law. I will tell you one thing. I am prepared to find out. You need to ask yourself one question...Do you have the resources and the will to find out? The WACO Brotherhood never intended for this work to be made into a profitable venture by anyone. We hashed this out earlier in the year, only to have it crop back up again at this time. I think that I know who is behind this, and I have proof of some slanderous things that have been said in e-mails to other persons, regarding this group and it's founder. I chose to ignore this e-mail until now. I think that I will be able to tie this slanderous and liebelious statement into the proposed commercial kitting of this model. You might want to rethink who you are choosing as a bedfellow before you know with what vermin he is infested. Please rethink your position. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: WACO YMF
Gentlemen,
Let's take a moment and think about this. What if we could all go down to the LHS and plop down equilavent of $159.00 in 1970 dollars and buy a kit? Would we still be on this thread? I dare say yes, the reason we are all here is to learn from others. Myself, I have learned many things that I did not know about building a scale, (stand off scale) model. I have also developed friendships with other builders. Ron J, sent me some aluminum stock to build strut tabs instead of using the supplied nylon. RC outlaw helped me out with some decals and an instrument pannel. Bill, Ken, John and all the rest have been more than helpfull and willing to share their knowledge with someone who is just starting in the hobby. This is why we are all on this thread, to share knowledge and insight about a hobby and aircraft we all love and enjoy. |
RE: WACO YMF
Dan,
Just wait until you have completed that first flight with a plane that you have created yourself by cutting out the parts, gluing them together, doing all the detail and other stuff, you will think your smile will break you face in half and everyone around will think you are on something making you goofy (actually you are, but it is a natural high). On the other hand, "most" cabinets use "standard" size materials (plywood and lumber) and most parts are "square" (not counting arch top doors, curve front drawers, turned posts, rosettes, hardware, etc.), with many dealers having the material on hand, so making a parts list and cut diagram is relatively easy. These models of ours seldom have a "square" part and sometimes use odd size thicknesses and/or odd shaped materials (preformed leading edges, tri or tapered stock etc.) and non-wood parts such as plastic shapes, wire and such making the developement of a parts/materials list a bit harder. Not every dealer or LHS carries every size and shape we need, so we need to source out our needs from different dealers. Just makes our job a little more difficult than cabinet making (not that cabinet making is easy). |
RE: WACO YMF
Stickbuilder
To set the record straight, I never said I was going to manufacture a complete kit of the Pica Waco YMF-5 in 1/5 scale. What is the deal with the idle threats, "do you have the resources and the will to find out",: I honestly think this would prevail in any court of law....I am prepared to find out". What is your deal? Do you think that the Brotherhood will only build this one kit and that this kit is the reference standard for the YMF? Since you speak for the entire Brotherhood, self appointed I guess, please let me know what the problem is. My whole basis for asking my original question was to find out what OTHER Wacos people would be interested in building. Never did I say that I was going to single handedly undermine the brotherhood and the generous donation that they made to the AMA. Maybe I have been mispronouncing "waco" all this time after all. OOPS, I see now that I did say this particular model. I did not mean the Pica kit, just the YMF, sorry ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder Just for the record. The Pica 1/5 scale WACO YMF that was originally kitted by David Platt, was subsequently sold to Pica Models of Miami Florida. When Pica elected to end their business, the rights to all their model airplane ventures was sold to L.M. Cox Corp. Cox subsequently elected to release the old Pica models as ARF airplanes. Shortly afterward, Cox made a donation to the AMA of the plans to the kit version of these model airplanes. The plans and the rights to the same now are property of the AMA. Ownership of these have been passed along, unbroken since they were first released by David Platt. Pica never relenquished the ownership of these items until selling the rights to Cox. Bankruptcy, or the lack thereof would have no bearing in this case, since the ownership was legally sold to another entity. The parts templates had never existed prior to the WACO Brotherhood making a gift of the templates to the AMA. This undertaking was performed by members of the WACO Brotherhood (an unchartered not for profit organization) at no cost to the AMA. The gift of these parts drawings was made in January 2007. The ownership of these parts drawings is without question, since it is common knowledge that the parts drawings never existed prior to this date. And the proof of the existance of these parts is unquestionable with regard to the date of publishing of the parts on RCU. This publication would predate any effort that anyone might make to make a commercial kit of this model in this scale, and using these parts outlines as a basis for manufacturing a model kit from them. I honestly believe that this would prevail in any court of law. I will tell you one thing. I am prepared to find out. You need to ask yourself one question...Do you have the resources and the will to find out? The WACO Brotherhood never intended for this work to be made into a profitable venture by anyone. We hashed this out earlier in the year, only to have it crop back up again at this time. I think that I know who is behind this, and I have proof of some slanderous things that have been said in e-mails to other persons, regarding this group and it's founder. I chose to ignore this e-mail until now. I think that I will be able to tie this slanderous and liebelious statement into the proposed commercial kitting of this model. You might want to rethink who you are choosing as a bedfellow before you know with what vermin he is infested. Please rethink your position. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: WACO YMF
John
You are so right about cabinets be sq.(hopefully sq LOL ) I was a little nervous about cutting all the parts out but I'm looking forward now. Thanks again to you and every one for all the help. |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: mango12 Van, What you said was very well spoken.Thanks. Stick builder, Once again, I would like to state that I have NO INTENTION of producing a full kit of someone elses airplane. All I would do is produce the laser cut parts for any given model. The builder would still have to order their plans from the designer, AMA, Ziroli , etc. I'll bet that there are people in the Brotherhood that have bought fiberglass cowls, wheel pants, and other aftermarket parts for this particular model. It in no way infringes on the AMA or anyone else, perhaps it even enhances the model. Would Mike Barbee have been as likely to build his Waco if there had not been a laser cut kit, as opposed to building it completely from scratch? His model is simply awsome and was one of the inspirations for me building mine. And if there is an easier alternative for someone not as experienced a builder or equipped to cut their own, maybe an alternative would allow them to build the model we love so dearly. " Cease and Desist"? Come on. Dude, I'm not trying to produce someone elses kit here. Not only would it be unethical, but probably illegal. I would love to see more builders in this hobby and am only trying to make it easier for more people to do so. This was not a solicitation by the way, I just wanted to see what models people would be interested in. I wasn't aware that this would cause such an uproar, and did not mean to offend you or anyone else. Scott Still in the Brotherhood #49 Van |
RE: WACO YMF
Vandolay,
This thread was never supposed to give rise to a commercial venture to offer a kit (laser cut or otherwise). This was looked into early on, and it was decided to not go there. We (the entire Brotherhood) have worked together to enable someone to cut the parts and build a viable model of the fifth scale YMF/UMF. That is the extent of this thread here on RCU. If we had wanted to do so, we could have had a commercial version of the kit on the market long before now. We had a well-known kit cutter who would have produced the kits for us. We, as a group decided that that was not where the Brotherhood needed or wanted to go. If one wishes to make a kit available on a cost basis (no profit taken from the venture) then I think that the Brotherhood as a group would embrace that undertaking. We did not work our tails off so that someone else could make money from the efforts of the Brotherhood. When the "T" shirt idea was first presented, Jay found the cost (shirts, design, application and shipping) and he was willing to undertake the project without profit to himself. The same was the case with the modifications of the kit to make it a stronger, lighter model that was more flexible in the area of engine choices and stability. These things were done because we care about the model, and we care about each other. This disagreement does not mean that you are not welcome to participate in the Brotherhood. We all disagree from time to time about many things. The offer of membership in the Brotherhood still stands. The ball is squarely in your court. We all eagerly await your request. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: WACO YMF
I, too, was drawn to this thread because I get a great amount of satisfaction in 'doing it myself'. Even better is the fact that I (we) are building something that few can (or will) attempt these days. Want to become a kit supplier? Knock yourself out, go for it. If one where familiar with this thread from the very beginning, instead of simply jumping in so late in the game, one would have a feeling of the 'room.' I nor anyone else here have anything against our wonderful free market system and I'm sure anyone with vast amounts of model design experience and a mind and budget for marketing can make a go at being a businessman in the RC airplane hobby. However, and I may be wrong, my feeling of this 'room' is that we just enjoy being here. We have been drawn into this Brotherhood to celebrate our craft by building something that not everyone can build and one must admit that that in itself is very powerful. Would there be WACO Brotherhood if there were kits in every corner? Probably not. Would I be building a 1/5 scale PICA WACO YMF if STICKBUILDER had not so unselfishly provided me with parts outlines? Probably not. Will the Brotherhood grow with the introduction of a kit? Probably so, but the guys who scratch build these things with a little piece of their soul can't help but feel a twinge of something deep down inside that most can't explain. Until the STICKBUILDER started this thread and COX introduced their ARFs there was really no clamor of any magnitude for 1/6 or 1/5 WACO YMF's. Now, it seems, the carnies have arrived....Is there a clamor for WACO kits or is it imagined because someone started a thread that has become very poplular here on RC universe?
Vandolay and Mango12, how about filling out your profile pages so we can get a feeling for who you are. You've only been members of RCU for a scant few months so your sense for the model airplane market must come from elsewhere. Care to elaborate? Seems strange that Mango12 and Vandolay Joined RCU within days of each other 2 months ago and Mango12 was just recently looking for laser cutters in the U.S. As far as kits go I'd love to build a Genesis or Barth. And one day I intend to. I have nothing against kits but they do not excite me as a scratch project does. As far as business plans go. Keep it close to your vest until it is ready to launch. As soon as you let the cat out of the bag the next guy will be 10 steps ahead of you even before your business cards can be printed. |
RE: WACO YMF
Jay,
That's downright eloquent. I didn't know that you Tar-Heels could write like that. Dang![:@]I forgot...You're from Virginia. :D Bill, AMa 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: WACO YMF
Hey Dan,
Don't look now, but your prop has stopped again:). |
RE: WACO YMF
I have tried to update my profile but apparently am doing something wrong. I have been in the hobbysince I was thirteen, thirty years now. First control line , then RC. My Grand father ignited my passion for airplanes when he took me to a shopping center in N.Y. It is called Roosevelt Station. It is where Charles Lindeberg took off for his trans atlantic flight. My first RC model was the Lil Stinker built from RCM plans in the mid eighties. I have also built more kits than I can count, mostly for myself, but some for other club members, and a few for the LHS.I have built a Sterling Stinson Reliant, when you could buy them at the LHS, a Pica P6E, I've even built a 30% Extra 330L in a walk in closet. If you look back in this thread you'll find a picture of a third scale Fly Baby bipe I built over ten years ago. I have been an on again, off again (mostly on) member of the West Alabama Aeromodelers Club for nearly fourteen years.And yes , I was inquiring about laser cutters in the U.S., for research purposes. I am no part of any conspiracy. The reason I am new to RCU is because RCScalebuilder had no information on the Waco YMF. I also would love to build the Genesis kit, the mere sight of it makes me drool. Is there anything else you would like to know about my involvement in the hobby? BTW- I am married and have a fourteen year old son that I am trying to get into the hobby, but video games make it difficult. And my wife loves Stearmans!!!!
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder Vandolay, This thread was never supposed to give rise to a commercial venture to offer a kit (laser cut or otherwise). This was looked into early on, and it was decided to not go there. We (the entire Brotherhood) have worked together to enable someone to cut the parts and build a viable model of the fifth scale YMF/UMF. That is the extent of this thread here on RCU. If we had wanted to do so, we could have had a commercial version of the kit on the market long before now. We had a well-known kit cutter who would have produced the kits for us. We, as a group decided that that was not where the Brotherhood needed or wanted to go. If one wishes to make a kit available on a cost basis (no profit taken from the venture) then I think that the Brotherhood as a group would embrace that undertaking. We did not work our tails off so that someone else could make money from the efforts of the Brotherhood. When the "T" shirt idea was first presented, Jay found the cost (shirts, design, application and shipping) and he was willing to undertake the project without profit to himself. The same was the case with the modifications of the kit to make it a stronger, lighter model that was more flexible in the area of engine choices and stability. These things were done because we care about the model, and we care about each other. This disagreement does not mean that you are not welcome to participate in the Brotherhood. We all disagree from time to time about many things. The offer of membership in the Brotherhood still stands. The ball is squarely in your court. We all eagerly await your request. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 Ive never been one not to accept an Olive Branch and extend one in return. I appreciate your offer and apologize for offending yours or anyone elses sensibilities. I have my own way of seeing things but I try to strive for truth and freedom on everyones behalf. By the way I believe John Craven to be one of the best men to grace Gods planet. I have "Blind Man's Bluff" committed to memory. I never meant to become so involved in the thread. I start a new studio soon and likely won't be committed long enough to ask for a number. It would be wasted on me. Actually I saw this thread a while back but was put off by it's size. Repetition being the death of art and all. That may seem skewed but I'm an artist. I wish I was a business man so I could exploit myself more effectively. This is why I must do a limited run of models. I have to put my name on the modelling map. I've done so much drawing for other people just for pin money or kits and stuff. I'll get off your back. I've said my bit. I don't use pms. just fyi. It's all said here. Regards, Arthur aka Van |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: damifino Vandolay and Mango12, how about filling out your profile pages so we can get a feeling for who you are. You've only been members of RCU for a scant few months so your sense for the model airplane market must come from elsewhere. Care to elaborate? Seems strange that Mango12 and Vandolay Joined RCU within days of each other 2 months ago and Mango12 was just recently looking for laser cutters in the U.S. I'm the one who carries a copy of Catcher in the Rye here. |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Nightstalker Lt. Did you get out flying like you planned? Can't wait for your maiden report. If she flies as good as she looks, should be an awsome report. Keep us posted Ken... and don't be nervous... remember... it's only an ARF [8D] Out Here Todd WACO Brotherhood #47 Now the bad news. The tailwheel, not having any shock absorption, couldn't take the bouncing and came off the piano wire shaft. I was afraid it might happen when I made it. The bottom of the rudder got grinded on a little, but it is minimal and will repair easily. I have to figure out now how to spring load the tailwheel, or modify the one I made so it won't come apart. The only thing that happened was an internal solder broke when the brass tubing bent slightly. Back to the drawing board. |
RE: WACO YMF
Lt.
Glad to hear you got out today. Your display of valor / discretion (err...chicken sh**tedness) is commendable, Sir. Timing is of the essence as it were. Fix your tailwheel and get'er up... as a former Air Force Officer, I'm sure that's not the first time you've heard that :D Thanks for the update Ken. Out Here Todd WACO Brotherhood #47 |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: khodges [/quote] There is no such manuver. The term, "Crash Dive" exists only in the minds of the Hollywood movie makers. It's sort of like when a movie shows a scene from a submarine, they always have a sound track of what they think an active sonar sounds like (you know...the rythmic pinging.....) which if you went active with your sonar would be sort of like yelling when being stalked by a thug. You would not be hard to find. It's called the silent service for more than one reason. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder There is no such manuver. The term, "Crash Dive" exists only in the minds of the Hollywood movie makers. Sinks like the Lusitania did when torpedoed by a sub (she went down in 18 minutes from a single torpedo), or sinks like the Squalus, or sinks like the Kursk, or sinks like the Scorpion. Not nearly as romantic. You got any ideas I can think on re: my UMF tailwheel? |
RE: WACO YMF
I have tried to update my profile but apparently am doing something wrong. I have been in the hobbysince I was thirteen, thirty years now. |
RE: WACO YMF
[quote]ORIGINAL: khodges Why not look at some of the lesser known, but no less wonderful and beautiful, types that were built and are very worthy of modelling? A UBF or QCF would be nice, and the JYM Taperwing would be awesome, as would the JWM. So many to choose from without even getting into the cabin models......... Thanks. That is what I was looking for. I would like to find some plans for the HKS as well. |
RE: WACO YMF
Ken,
It probably won't help much but take a look at redcesar's installation of his tail wheel on his Barth YMF (post 131, pg 6). The Barth YMF appears to have a platform similar to the Cox/Pica set up. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_49...tm.htm#5876914 |
RE: WACO YMF
Scott,
Take a look at the Plans, Kits and Sources list on the supplimental site http://www.houseofmoy.com/waco/ . There are plans and kits of the WACO 10, E, AGC-8, ENF, N(Trike Gear), CSO, ATO, SRE/ARE, D, F-3, UPF-7, HKS/YKS, Taperwing and more that still need to be found. Granted that many are not 1/5th scale and would have to be enlarged and maybe some redesign, but the basic outlines/templates are there (hopefully accurate) as a starting point. Both Norm Rosenstock (plans 1/5 ($50) and 1/4 ($55) scale) and Kit Cutters have plans and/or kits for a YKS/HKS in 1/4 scale that you may want check out. Good Luck. |
RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: khodges Sounds (?) boring to me:D:D. Dang, you're shattering all my illusions. I guess I'll have to alter the simile, such as: Sinks like the Lusitania did when torpedoed by a sub (she went down in 18 minutes from a single torpedo), or sinks like the Squalus, or sinks like the Kursk, or sinks like the Scorpion. Not nearly as romantic. You got any ideas I can think on re: my UMF tailwheel? As to your tailwheel problem, I would think that you need to use a little heavier stock, and maybe braze the parts rather than trying to rely on a simple solder job. Since you didn't actually rotate the plane, the shock from the taxi test should have been marginal. Look at how I made mine, and see if yours was like it, or if mine is a tad more heavy-duty. I don't remember how you had yours mounted, but I used a Goldberg 1/2A nose wheel bracket for mine. The wire inside mine is 3/32" music wire, and I have it reinforced above and below the fork with a couple of #2 flat washers. I used silver bearing solder on mine and a jewler's torch instead of using a larger LP gas rosette or standard plumbing torch. The Jewlers torch allows for a more precision flame path, and you can control the temperature better. You could have heated the wire in yours until it became somewhat crystallized. That could explain the problem that you had. I'll almost bet the solder joint did not fail. If you wish, you could always modify one of the Sullivan spring drive systems and use the spring to internally drive the wheel. You could also use a seperate servo to drive yours. I am using a small standard servo to drive my tailwheel, and am using a spring loaded setup at the servo arm. This uses a couple of small wheel collars and two springs that look like they came from a small ball point pen for shock loading. The pushrod is not actually driven by the servo, but rather by the springs. They allow for enough compression to absorb most any shock load without creating any problems at either the tailwheel or the servo. I can make a drawing if you want one. Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
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