flyintexan

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I may regret asking this question but I am just too curious to hold it in....

If a 2M pattern plane and a 35-40% IMAC both flew the same sequence (let's say an unknown), what would be the outcome? Let's pretend the judges are somehow, completely imparitial to either airframe and really just judged the manuevers.

Does anyone think one would have a distinct advantage and as a result always win the round?

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I'll jump in the fire

I think it would all come down to pilot skill.

I can't see either airframe being that much better than the other one. Each airframe is going to do certain things good and certain things poorly.

A lot of Pattern planes have been designed so that most of the bad tendancies that a scale airframe may have--have all but been eliminated. So, in theory, a pattern plane should fly more precise than a scale plane.

But, nothing is perfect. And both airframes have their faults or shortcomings.

I think it could be any pilot on any given day. Just like a baseball game or the Superbowl. The game is the game--as flying is flying, but it's anybodies ballgame on any given day.

flyintexan

My Feedback: (1)

Is the Don Lowe Masters run this way??? or is a Scale aerobatic plane required?

majortom-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

I fly the entry level class in both pattern and IMAC. In the entry level class you can fly anything that's AMA legal. I've flown both types of models in both pattern Sportsman and IMAC Basic class. No question in my mind that the pattern models are easier to handle, more manageable, fly smoother and more precisely. So if you're wondering which kind of model to fly yourself, fly both, then you'll know. I enjoy both, and find they complement each other nicely. But if I had to choose one over the other, pattern would be my choice. If you add 3D to the mix, now it becomes hard to choose. I like 'em all. Of course scale aerobats can be set up to fly 3D, which is not so feasible with pattern planes. Pattern, IMAC, 3D--all have their own special appeal, and each teaches skills that are useful in the other styles as well.

Divesplat

My Feedback: (7)

Well Wayne. Of course, assuming judging would be fair to geometry, symetry and the rules.......

It depends on your giant scale plane set up!!!!!

When I had my 37% Extras the red one was set up just like a pattern plane. Art flew it her in Lubbock and could be heard saying things like
"didn't expect it to fly that smooth" "the downlines are straight down" "the snap stopped like it's supposed too" etc etc etc.

A bigger plane will handle the environment a little better(wind) but also may require a little more rudder corrections to fly in the wind. A bigger plane will show mistakes a little more because it is bigger and easier to see.

4 years ago, I was hard to beat with that Extra, and it flew the Pattern sequence just as well.

My vote goes to bigger flies better.

Food for fodder in N Dallas next month, eh(not from Canada but my plane was AirCombatCanada)

Ed

rmh

Given a properly setup model -the big one wins every time
Nothing special about pattern planes - sorry -there just isn't.
been there -

flyintexan

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for your thoughts...I would have to agree here that a properly setup IMAC plane would present better.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Well of course you will get the " Bigger flies better" in the IMAC forum. I do disagree obviously and yes I do have IMAC planes. Pattern planes are designed for one thing. Precision. "IMAC" type planes are designed more, like their full size versions, for the tumbles and spins and 3d types of flying. Not saying they don't fly good. But if you were to bring a 40% plane and fly the FAI schedule at a pattern meet, there is no way it would present as well as a plane that was designed to fly precisely the FAI schedule.
I do think that you can get a BIG plane to fly precisely however. It does greatly depend on the pilot also. I think that there are alot of people who dislike pattern that have no idea what a current pattern plane flies like.
This thread made me laugh. Asking IMAC folks if a pattern plane would fly better than a IMAC type plane at a contest.
Funny
Chris

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

I'd have to agree with the fellow who designed a bunch of pattern planes and a few giant scale that flew in the TOC.

Bigger is better....DH is right again.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

I have alot of respect for Mr. Hanson and have enjoyed his planes over the years and also some of his comments on here. He is a man of alot of knowledge. I have a few of his planes. Including a Ultimate from way back and a emc2. I think that his opinions may be a little biased at this point in time, as mine would be too if I were in his shoes, as I don't believe he has much pattern inventory on the market. I am NOT trying to bash him, please don't take it that way.
Alot of people who fly IMAC type planes cannot see the use in pattern planes. And it's understandable. But that may also be because they have limited or no time with them.
How can a 40 percent IMAC plane with huge control surfaces and huge control arms fly like a pattern plane? There has been great advancements and designs to pattern planes ( as Mr Hanson would know) to make these planes fly a perform the way they do. If you did the same kinds of things to a big Imac plane then I would see it possible. I'm not saying pattern planes are superior as I don't believe they are. All I am saying is that IMAC planes fly IMAC better and pattern planes fly pattern better.
Chris

flyintexan

My Feedback: (1)

Who knows what the future will bring....Patty Wagstaff may someday be flying a full scale Brio.....

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

LOL Now that would be a funny sight.
I dunno, I could be wrong with my whole perception on this. It would be interesting to see but I sure do like keeping pattern pattern and IMAC IMAC. I just wish we could get more IMAC guys to fly pattern as there are some really talented IMAC guys out there........
Chris

majortom-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

An interesting variation would be to fly a 40% YAK and a same size, same weight top pattern design powered with a big twin gasser and fixed gear--just to take size out of the comparison.

rmh

Steve Stricker wrote me an EMail a few years back-because he had looked at comparing the smoothness of flying -Big IMAC vs Pattern.
His comment was that he could lie on his back with one eye closed and fly any pattern routine , more easily with his big bipe.
He had recently flown the sequences with his Bipe
It is very hard to brush aside the advantages --more time -more space for any maneuver.
As for superior aerodynamics of pattern models .
Pretty subjective and the RN advantage on large planes is a huge advantage.
A well setup EXTRA is very easy to hold on line -especially in 40 pound sizes with big tuned pipe twins tugging em along.
The real advantage of more time and space can be maximized.
Our last pattern designs -some years back---the EMC2 and the EXCESS were made to fly more slowly in same space - which is now -the popular trend .
Until a size / weight change happens in pattern - the models will remain pretty much status quo.
I have a new Showtime 4D ARF-which flys extremely well - pattern -or wild flip and flop stuff.
This is a good buy for those who like the best o fthose worlds-wrapped up neatly in a single model.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

The latest trend in pattern is the $7000 electric. $3000 gets you a nice 35% Extra powered by a 100cc gasser with big power and reasonable fuel economy. IMHO pattern would benefit greatly from bigger planes and the elimination of the weight rule to allow the same advantages as the big IMAC planes.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

You would say this because you are not a pattern flyer. And $7000, where did you get that figure? And $3000, where did you get that figure? I have way more than that in my hanger 9 extra. Try a comparably price airframe then figure the rest of the costs. How much are the composite arf 35-40% planes compared to the composite arf impact for example? I think the impact is about a third of the cost, right? And this is from the same company. The most expensive pattern plane out is around $3000. There are the cheaper planes and the more expensive planes. In pattern or IMAC.

Oh yeah, how much did that trailer and truck cost to haul around those big planes?
I'm not beating on them don't get me wrong. I love to watch and fly them!!!

It just gets to me when things get blown outta whack.

Oh yeah, and gas prices are catching up to nitro, lol...

And Mr Hanson, how is there more time, more space for any maneuver?
I fly my plane with a 4 blader and I have more time than I know what to do with.
The electrics do also as I'm sure you know.

Hey have you jumped into building a 35-40% Electric yet, by chance?
If so, how does it compare... I'm thinking about doing that as my next project. Even though I haven't gone that way in pattern yet.

rmh

More time and space -
a larger model can be apparantly same size -further away
So the model may be flying faster but look slower
This is a huge advantage .

Cost /transportation etc., an entirely different thing .
The original question tho - which has a distinct advantage ?
the larger one --every time .
Pattern is great -the size of the models is workable --with even a passenger car.
Been there
but aerodynamically - the size thing is the winner .
I hardly ever fly my 33% -sold my larger one -but really enjoy my EF YAK w/ ZDZon a pipe
It will flyany of the pattern stuff very well
My real favorite tho-- is a 15 oz 400 sq in Super Star we made from 6mm flat Depron and a 20 /20 Hacker motor- this thing is simply unreal fun.
You can fly any pattern sequence - quite well too
Yet you can do flips , right in your face -- hovers-- huge tailslids etc..
The wingloading is about 4 ozs to sq ft.
Ya gotta fly all the sizes to see what's happening .

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, you can put together a very good 33-35% aerobat for $3000 - I have two, and they are competitive. Just look through the ads on RCU and you can find turn-key planes in the same price range or lower.
On the other side, check the electric pattern forum on RCU, figure how many battery packs you need (oh about 4) and how many chargers. I believe you will have $3000 in packs and chargers. Now add a plane, motor, Hyde mount (yes, they use them on the electrics ), and servos. The $7000 figure is what I read there, from someone who has a competitive electric pattern plane.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Ok,

well , you are talking about a used IMAC plane vs. a new technology electric pattern plane. I mean, c'mon. Somewhere you read where someone had 7000 in a electric pattern plane. Ok, maybe if you by 6 packs, 2 chargers and all the goodies and a 3000 plane you may see that. They have no fuel to pay for do they. And that used to be one of the Imac gripes right? Nitro price vs. gas.......
Now back to your plane for 3000 that you see on here used. How is that a fair comparison? I don't fly an electric and have around $3000 in my pattern ships. I have I think $4400 in my hanger 9 extra with a zdz 80 that I haven't finished yet. And the hanger 9 extra is a cheap 33% plane right? Try the bigger 40% planes with the super expensive equipment and a truck and trailer. Why is it that IMAC folk say pattern is too expensive? That's a bunch of crap. Geez, I don't hate on IMAC!!!!!!!!! Why are Imac people always hatin on pattern. Let us be. Geez. Your always telling us our planes should be more like yours. Why? Cuz your the greatest or something. Ask any top flyer how they came to be. It was through pattern, remember. Pattern is good for pattern folk. Quit HATIN!!!

Daniel Hice

I am not sure who's side I am supporting here, just wanted to drop the quick note. I am close to finishing a CompARF 2.3M Extra (30%). I have every last item at this point and am just taking my time getting it all setup and ready for maiden. At this point I have $3,300 into the plane which does not cover my Futaba 9C or receiver. It does include the Fromeco charger and load checker since I did not own these items already but I also got my engine and muffler for 1/2 price. I have over done several areas here but saved hundreds in other areas. I remember telling my wife that a 30% could get airborn for $2,500, what the hell was I smoking at the time? If I had paid full price for my engine and not gotten a couple other deals I would be at or close to $4,000.

Fuselege: Composite ARF Extra 330L 2.3M
Engine: ZDZ 80RV
Prop: Mejzlik 24x10 / Mejzlik 26x10
Spinner: 4" Extra Carbon Fiber
Radio: Futaba 9CHP
Receiver: Futaba 149DP

General Electronics:
2 x 4800mAh Fromeco (RX)
1 x 2400mAh Fromeco (Ignition)
Smart-Fly Power Expander (RX Power)
Smart-Fly Turbo Regulator (RX Power)
Smart-Fly Ignition Cutoff (Ignition Power)
Fromeco Regulator (Ignition Power)
Fromeco 8 Ball Load Tester
Fromeco 3-Port Charger

Smoke:
Sullivan Sky Writer

Servos:
Ailerons - 4 x Hitec 5945MG
Elevators - 2 x Hitec 5945MG
Rudder - 1 x Hitec 5955TG
Throttle - 1 x Hitec 5945MG

Have Planes Will Travel

I have flown Pattern for years before retiring. Now I am flying IMMAC. My first contest was this past month. I flew a pattern ship in basic, and scored higher that all the Scale Ships. I flew against 27%, as well as 40%. There were 6 contestants in Basic, and I placed first with an AMA Pattern ship. I now fly a 27% Extra, and I can tell you, it is different. Yes, pilot skill level comes into play, yet flying IMMAC pattern with a Pattern ship comes much easier for me. I am practicing with this Extra, but I have it set up like i set up my Pattern planes. Slow controls and a little tail heavy.

Herb

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Patternflyer1:
I don't know how you spent $4400 on a H9, but you must have got took....
A local flyer just bought a H9 sukhoi with DA-100, all servos + JR 10X....brand new, assembled right, but never flown.......less than $3K. The point I'm trying to make is that there are so many low-mile giant scale aerobats out there, that there are plenty of great bargains available if you just look around. So few fly pattern that you can't find a good used plane locally. A used gas motor is a viable option. A used glow motor....[:'(]
The other reason to like the big planes is they fly a heck of a lot slower than the pattern planes.

flyintexan

My Feedback: (1)

I must apologize for starting this thread.

I think arguments can be made on both sides for finding a low-cost competitive plane......and how well one flys versus the other.

I simply think that it is great that we have so many people flying precision aerobatics due to the option of competing in pattern and/or imac. We have more cheap arfs in both arenas than ever before and lots (relatively) of meets available to attend. Fly your preference (IMAC or pattern) and enjoy the brotherhood/friendships within that (or both) venue.

budgetdude

My Feedback: (6)

Why dont you guys ask shulman, hyde or any other top pattern flyer/TOC competitor what they would rather fly???

flyintexan

My Feedback: (1)

Mr. Hanson already replied, that's good enough for me.