What class to start in?
 

I’m looking for advice for what class to fly in.

My background:
17 years RC car racing – got pretty good and won a few national level (in Canada) races
18 months flying RC airplanes
I have about 1,200 flights under my belt
Last year I practiced Sportsman but didn’t get a chance to compete

I have been flying gassers 30% and up for 1 year; this summer I am flying a 35% Panzl and a GP 1/3 Matt Chapman Cap.

I am totally addicted to RC airplanes – and scale aerobatics in particular. I want to fly IMAC to get a chance to meet some great flyers, get some tips, watch some great flying and improve my flying. There is no IMAC within 1,000 km of where I live; no one competes and there are not a lot of people to get tips from. I am a sport flyer but once a year I will travel somewhere to complete – at least until circumstances allow me to compete more. I am flying to the Canadian Nationals in July and that’s probably the only IMAC event I’ll go to this year due to work, family etc.

I have been practicing the 07 Intermediate and I also have flow the Sportsman a bit. I’m stuck in the simulator until April. I can fly rollers inside, outside and in both directions but only for about 2 rolls. I struggle on some of the 45 deg up lines getting the lines at the right angle and sometimes over-using the rudder and flying off line.

I wanted to fly Sportsman but the fellow I have helping me (an old time Pattern flyer who is coming with me to the Nats to help and call for me) told me I should fly in the highest class I can because a. It’s better to come last in a higher class than first in a lower and b. he says I have the skills to fly whatever class I want (he is wrong on that IMO.)

I think I should fly Sportsman – just wondering what others think. I have read all the stuff on mini-iac and it seems pretty clear that the consensus is too many people move up too fast. Has anyone ever been successful starting in Intermediate?

RE: What class to start in?
 

Oh - yes I read arresti and yes I have read the judges guide several times.

RE: What class to start in?
 

Just my opinion here.

Start low and work your way up. If you read the post about the president's final post in IMAC you will see he believes one of the biggest mistakes pilots make is to start or move up too quickly. I agree with this and have seen it happen time and time again. Someone believes or thier local constituancy tells them how great they are but can't fly a straight line in no wind let alone wind correct in all attitudes, then go to a contest and get very low scores, coming in below what they believe they should, get frustrated and quit.

Start at Sportsman or Basic. If you win, then move up, you've earned it as well as spent time making friends and asking questions. If you start too high, the legal amount of work to move down includes getting letters of recomendation and explaining why you want to move down.

I totally disagree with the notion to come in last in a higher class is better. To me this is a crock. Why not find out where your skill level belongs, then compete appropriately. For example, just because someone like to golf but ends up in a certain flight(skill level) on Saturday, he isn't going to say put me in with the pro's. It is not better to come in last when he could have competed against the appropriate players. Most would laugh at the guy thinking he should tee off from the pro tee box when he doesn't hit it past the ladies tee box.

Have fun, meet people, ask questions and it will be evident very quickly.

Ed

RE: What class to start in?
 

Good advice, thanks :)

RE: What class to start in?
 

I'd have to agree with Ed. Basic may look simple but one of the hardest things for new IMAC pilots is the ability to fly a straight wind corrected line both horizontal and vertical. A 45 degree line is a lot steeper than most people realize. A nice round loop that starts and stops in the same place can be tricky in wind, especially a crosswind

Start in basic and do at least 2 complete contests to make sure you have the basics down pat and can do them with consistency.

If there are pilots flying IMAC close to you I'd suggest you get with them and have them look you over. It's not uncommon for pilots to find out that what they thought is the correct way to fly a maneuver turns out to be wrong. Snaps and Spins are the most common.

Here is something Dean Bird put together last year that may help you.

[link=http://www.teamflyingcirkus.com/IMACtips/IMAC_Tips_in_pdf_format.zip]IMAC Tips and Tricks[/link]

RE: What class to start in?
 

The earlier posts are good advice but FYI there is going to be an IMAC contest
in Kelowna, BC this summer targeted for 8/25&26. Looks to be within
reach.

RE: What class to start in?
 

Thanks guys.

I have had several pattern flyers coaching / watching me and I fly in all winds since last spring. I can fly round loops and straight lines in most winds (according to them)... when it gets above 20kph I struggle. I spent about 100 flight last spring just going back and forth doing lines in the wind - like every day.

There are no IMAC flyers near me - I mean none within 10 hrs - there are a about 5 pattern flyers and they are grudgingly helping me (they want me to fly pattern but I have an allergy to glow fuel... electric is too expensive due to battery cost .... so I fly gas... and I like the big scale aerobats a LOT better.) The fellow who gave me my wings tests for pilot and instructor is an old-time pattern flyer. He is helping me but he is the one who said I should fly advanced right off the bat... it will take some convincing to get him to accept me doing Sportsman.

Maybe I'd be better off to build a pattern plane and do that at the local contests for a few years. The problem is making a 10lb gasser ... I am very allergic to glow oil now and I don't want to invest thousands of $$$ in short life span LiPo's. I'm not sponsored for batteries... and 5 or 6 10c packs is huge $$$.

I will practice Sportsman and fly that at the Nats this year. If I don't do well that's okay. Basic is really, really, really boring. I'll take the advice to start lower down but Sportsman is where I want to start. I will definately fly a higher class in pattern though as the pattern sequences are easier than the IMAC ones.

The Kelowna contest is close to the nats time-wise... so I decided to go to the nats where I will see some really great pilots and get to pick their brains.

I was willing to host an IMAC contest in Edmonton but I have not got much support and so far all the fields have said they don't want to host an event. Finding judges is a big issue...

The reality is due to my location competing is just plain hard. So I will make a trip this year and see how it goes. There is nothing stopping me just practicing what I want to :) I really want to get rollers happening this summer.

RE: What class to start in?
 

I wouldn't fault you to start in either Basic or Sportsman.

If you start in sportsman and feel a little behind that's ok, stay in that class an extra year. If you start in Basic and feel its too easy move up.

The biggest thing in Basic is no unknowns.

My vote is either of those classes but no higher.

RE: What class to start in?
 

a few years ago a guy showed up at one of the larger So Cal contests who had no contest exerperience. he entered advanced, as did another guy who was flying his first imac event. one of the guys was mike caglia, who went to top ten finish in the TOC, the other guy was mark leseberg. and if memory serves me, bill hempel started in unlimited.

of course, in that same contest some sandbagger named scott anderson flew basic.

RE: What class to start in?
 

Yes, Sam is correct. Start in Basic and see how you do. You may be in for a surprize!! I too have seen guys start in too high of a class, get frustrated and quit just because they started too high. Lots of so-called good flyers fall apart when they have to in a rather confined area and do a particlular maneuvor in a prescribed manner. It's not as easy as it looks - especially with all those eyes watching and judging you.

Perhaps more inportant than the unknowns in Sportsman, is that you have to have a plane/engine combo that is capable of verticle flight without struggling.

Bobby

RE: What class to start in?
 

My equipment is good. I have a Radiowave 35% Panzl this year. DA100 on cans. I assume it will be good enough for Sportsman/Intermediate :)
Last summer I flew a GP Cap 580 DA100 on std mufflers. This winter I modified it to accept the MTW TD75 cans - and I dropped the smoke etc. It was unlimited vertical at 27lbs. The Panzl should be the same weight with quite a bit more wing area.

I am going to start in Sportsman. If I was really good at rollers in the simulator I would go to intermediate - but I am not. And I have never flown a roller in real life. I am not a "gifted" pilot - I learned fast because I flew a lot and obsessed about airplanes since the first time I tried it...

I think I will get a pattern ship and enter the local contests this summer - there are at least 4 within driving distance. I'll just have to be real careful of the nitro oil and wear gloves. I'll get a lot of help that way and it can only make things better when I eventually travel for IMAC. I will still practice the IMAC sequences with my big gassers.

I'm in this for fun not glory. I have no problem with competition jitters - 17 yrs of car racing got that out of my system... I fly best at fun flys with everyone looking - I'm the guy always hogging all the stick time and flying my *** off HA HA. I like to compete because the best guys compete and I can learn from them. I'm not gonna win anything at a high level... but I like being in the competitve atmosphere and setting goals. Boring holes in the sky is "boring" to me - I need some kind of structure.

Thanks for all the advice. Now back to practicing those rollers :)

RE: What class to start in?
 

I would suggest that if you think the basic sequence is too boring you are just flying it and not attempting to perfect it. I will be entering Unlimited this upcoming season. I started in sportsman 8 years ago. IMO you really need to start at the botton as the sequences are laying the groundwork for the next class up. I would suggest that you enter your first contest in Basic so you wont have the added stress of an unknown as you are trying to learn a contest format. After the contest look at your score sheets and if you are not scoring all 7.5 to 8.5 then you need to stay in basic and keep honing your skills.


Shawn

RE: What class to start in?
 

I have a hard time agreeing with what has been stated. I have seen a number of pilots forego basic and start in higher classes and be perfectly successful. And I have seen other pilots more through the classes and fail to develop the most basic skills like centering rolls or remembering to pause on point rolls. moreover, imac does not recognize basic as a competitive class, so why start there? the worst scenario in starting in sp is tanking an unknown, and anyone can recover from that. aside from that, the sequences are not sufficiently different that one has to fly B to get to S. and as far as Intermediate...rollers are such low K that they do not affect contest outcomes. Contests are won on the vertical and thats what can make Sp interesting. the guys that i know that burned out from trophy chasing did so because most of them practiced so much that they perfected the same mistakes and come contest time they could never improve.

RE: What class to start in?
 

Shawn - I appreciate your comments - especially about perfecting vs. flying... that is a very good point. The objective is to fly the sequence perfectly - no just fly it well - fly it perfect :)

I have to travel to compete - so I am not going to fly Basic - even if it is the right thing to do. I'm not worried about flying unknowns or burning out from over practice. But Basic is only flown ont he first day at most contests...

I think this year I'll forego IMAC and fly at 3 or 4 pattern contests close to home - likely in Imtermediate. That will give me a good grounding, get me used to scoring, being judged and expose me to some great flyers and feedback. Then when I do travel to fly IMAC I'll be way more prepared... just seems to make sense rather than flying a long way at a lot of expense and struggling through the weekend.

The advice has been great - thanks. Hopefully in a few years I'll get to actually meet some of the great flyers I have seen in video. I have been thinking I should just fly to Tuson to spectate some time. That would be awesome.

RE: What class to start in?
 

HighK, I have difficulties with a couple of your statements. first off IMAC does veiw basic as a competitive level. each region has its championships and point series, basic is included. Every contest I have attended including this past season in Perris, basic was flown both Saturday and Sunday. In every contest I have ever attended basic flys one run through of their known sequence on sunday morning while the other classes flys the unknown. Then in the afternoon basic flys a normal round of knowns as does all the other classes.


Shawn

RE: What class to start in?
 

shawn, basic is not a nats class, nor has it been offered at the TAS or the JR Challenge, decisions that I have never understood. that is the basis for my statement. basic does exist at the regional level - as it should - but it is not flown at the NATs. One of the reasons that Intermediate came into being is that Basic pilots who wanted to fly at the NATs had to go to Sp and the result was ridiculously large Sp classes. As for Perris...I just remember being real impressed with your tailwheels and spinner!

P

RE: What class to start in?
 

fly the class you are comfortable with and enjoy.
equipment needs only be good enough to do the job
blowing bucks does not make you a better flyer - you may feel better - look better- but still not BE a better flyer -
I have seen guys go from nothing to Unlimited capability in a heartbeat . then quit simply because they lost interest
You are supposed to be having a good time

RE: What class to start in?
 

The Nats, TAS and JR are not really IMAC contests as they are not points qualifiers. Then again anything is debateable. I wish I could figure out who you are as we have obviously met.

Dick, you are 100% correct. the main goal in this is to have fun. When it stops being fun I will do something else. I too have seen so many guys put too much pressure on themselves to " bring home the wood " that they have acted downright childish. I saw one Unlimited pilot get so bent out of shape that he threw his 3rd place plaque into the lake as he was leaving the feild. As for me if I get a 3rd this season being my first in Unlimited I will probibly mount it to my cowl.

Shawn

RE: What class to start in?
 

Just so I am clear, the National Scale Aerobatics Chanpionships are NOT IMAC contests?? Huh?? Then what is.

I too am one who cannot understand why Basic is excluded from the NATS. And BTW Shawn, not all regions recognize Basic in their regional standings. IMAC very much treats Basic as a second class citizen.

I have always viewed Basic as the very lifeblood of IMAc. Sadly, most others would rahter have 20 Unlimited pilots. I wold rather have 20 Basic pilots at a contest.

RE: What class to start in?
 

The Nats are not IMAC...while IMAC could be considered a SIG... they do not actually run the NATs
they are run by the AMA but use the IMAC rules and obviously the pilots are almost if not all IMAC pilots


Thats the way it was explained to me by a person who's opinion I trust

RE: What class to start in?
 

While I am not doubting what you are saying here, IMAC has gone through grest lengths to standardize the contest format. The rules state that if a CD deviates from this format that his contest will not count in season points. I put equal importance on all classes. we need to encourage and help anyone who wishes to come join us. I for one have numerous time stepped up and helped a basic pilot and helped get them through their first contest. I see this happening frequently here in the SW.

As far as the nats is concerned I can't say for sure but I would assume that basic is dropped because they think that not enough basic guys would enter.


Shawn

RE: What class to start in?
 

The nats don't include Basic just like they don't include Sportsman in Pattern.

They don't allow the Beginner classes. As for the reason......not sure, but I'm sure Time is one factor

RE: What class to start in?
 

both phaedrus and I have been around long enough that we have heard perhaps not all, but certainly an awful lot of reasons that basic is not inclued in the nats, and the lack of interest among basic pilots has never been one of them. on the contrary, back in the days of "doug's list" there were a number of imac basic pilots who felt shunned that they would not be welcome at the nats and felt that forcing them to fly sp wasn't in anyone's best interest. a fomer imac vp who is now long gone felt that crowning a basic pilot was tantamount to an adult winning a pine wood derby race. the nats is an imac event, to call it anything else is game of words, and by one who isn't well informed as to the history of how the IMAC Nats found itself in Muncie in the first place, and all the crap that followed as a result - most notably the sudden interest in noise and the political dancing that followed. and given that phaedrus (bill) is the chairman of the imac rules committee, (and I am a former chairman of the IMAC sequence committee) i suspect he might be in the know on this one. this is way off topic i know, but it does surface once in a while and i have always felt needs to be discussed.

shawn, my name is Paul Kopp...in live in So Cal and was more or less the point person for the early 2000 Southern California IMAC and then SCAT events. Which BTW, is where Intermediate originated, and where we also got a tremendous amount of sponsor support for among other things, for creating as one of our contest priorities the continued involvement of the Basic pilots. We know a lot of the same people, but not sure if we ever flew together.

P

RE: What class to start in?
 

Well guys, while not saying that you don't have your points and the fact that I have never attended a Nats I really cannot do anything but speculate on that situation.

The reason I personally do not consider the Nats, TAS and JR an IMAC contest is simply because they do not follow the IMAC contest format and your placings in the Nats and JR will not count in your season points totals. It is my understandg that in order to have an IMAC sanctioned event you must follow the IMAC format.


Please make no mistake, I have been active in IMAC starting in 1998, I have seen some of what you are talking about but I have also seen some very positive changes in IMAC as a whole over the past couple of years. Of course my perspective is based on what has been going on here in the SW region. This last season I have see the strongest Basic class to date and they were all well received by the upper classes. I personally have coached and/or called for many basic and sportsman pilots and I can think of quite a few more guys that have done the same.

Don't get me wrong, I hear what you guys are talking about and you have your points however I do think that some of your veiws may be a bit out dated due to the recent changes IMAC has made.


Shawn

RE: What class to start in?
 

Shawn, its an interesting discussion, but we may have to agree to disagree. I also think that the IMAC leadership needs to be realistic about the number of pilots who are actively flying for the accumulation of points - the regions are simply too big for there to be a fair opportunity for everyone to compete evenly.