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Turboprop in IMAC
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I have a Carden 35% Extra powered by a Wren Turboprop. I would like to know if it it would be suitable and would it be legal in IMAC competition. I am talking about the Basic competition as I am a very ordinary aerobatic pilot but would like to have a go at IMAC. Are there any problem you can see I would encounter using the turboprop?. It has approximatly the performance of a 100cc Carden Extra.
Regards |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Tommy,
I interpret the rules as saying that only reciprocating internal combustion engines and electric motors are allowed. Having said that, as a CD I wouldn't turn you away. My advice would be to contact the CD's of the contests you'd like to attend and get the OK from them before you go. I'd be surprised if anyone says no. I think the case can easily be made that a turboprop is closer to scale than an electric motor and electric motors are allowed. Maybe even more scale than the traditional gas/petrol engines we run! This is probably just one of those areas that hasn't yet been discussed by the IMAC rules committee. Not only that- this is definitely cool and in my experience IMAC loves cool and crowd pleasing. Dave |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
I love to see it and I would even give you extra points for the cool factor. LOL
Albert |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
I understand the rules in BASIC class as this:
Fly what ya brung. :D If it's a fixed wing aircraft, and you want to fly it--bring it on!! Got a B-52? Fly it! Got a trainer? Fly it! Got an electric Stryker? Fly it! Of course, thats only in the BASIC class. Beyond that, you have to have a "scale" aircraft that has competed in full scale IAC at that level. For example, I don't think anyone has ever flown a full scale Decathlon in Unlimited class of IAC. So, you really can't fly IMAC in the Unlimited class with a Decathlon either. I might be wrong on that specific plane (just using it as an example) --but the point is, you can't fly a plane in IMAC beyond the level at which same full scale airframe has competed in IAC. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
That is incorrect information.
The rule states that you the plane must have flown in IAC or be capable of flying in IAC. There are several models out there that never quite got into IAC but meet the rule. What does this actually mean to us? Basically your standard aerobatic planes are just fine to fly in any class of IMAC. No where does it state that the aircraft had to fly in a specific class. What is required is that the plane can fly the manuevers and stay within the airspace. And when I say plane.......I refer to the full scale version. This is why a P-51 for example is not allowed in the upper classes....though the model version can do everything inside the airspace the full scale cannot. Of course the last piece of data that everyone forgets.......the Contestant is responsible for proving that their plane meets the rule. Documentation/video etc would be helpful. As for the turbine rule......this was more meant toward the use of turbines as used in Jets. A turbo prop is a different beast and still uses a prop. There are several full scale versions of turbo prop planes that might just fit the rule if one could prove it. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Except he said Basic, so the IAC thing does not apply. No pattern plane or Stik ever flew in IAC, but they are perfectly legal in Basic. Sportsman and above the scale aircraft rule applies.
But this rule DOES apply, even to Basic: • 4. Model Aircraft Specifications. 4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft shall be allowed. Internal combustion reciprocating engines and electric motors shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing an internal combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be used. So, turbines are NOT allowed. End of story. Sorry. Now an individual CD can certainly waive this rule, but Sweetpea I know for one would never do such a thing since a rule is a rule!! The rule explicitly states that the motive force MUST be either a reciprocating engine or an electric motor. Turbines are not allowed. And speaking of the rule Sweetpea quoted, heres is the actual rule: 3.1. The events accommodate aerobatic monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of types known to have competed in International Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of types known to be capable of aerobatic competition within the airspace know as the “Box.” And sorry Sweetpea, a P-51 has been shown to be capable of aerobatics inside the airspace known as the "Box" and is therefore legal. Fred pointed this out a few years back when this question was hotly debated. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Oh well, I guess I will just have to try to improve my flying by practicing by myself. And I really do need to improve my flying!!!.
Regards |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R Except he said Basic, so the IAC thing does not apply. No pattern plane or Stik ever flew in IAC, but they are perfectly legal in Basic. Sportsman and above the scale aircraft rule applies. But this rule DOES apply, even to Basic: • 4. Model Aircraft Specifications. 4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft shall be allowed. Internal combustion reciprocating engines and electric motors shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing an internal combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be used. So, turbines are NOT allowed. End of story. Sorry. Now an individual CD can certainly waive this rule, but Sweetpea I know for one would never do such a thing since a rule is a rule!! The rule explicitly states that the motive force MUST be either a reciprocating engine or an electric motor. Turbines are not allowed. And speaking of the rule Sweetpea quoted, heres is the actual rule: 3.1. The events accommodate aerobatic monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of types known to have competed in International Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of types known to be capable of aerobatic competition within the airspace know as the “Box.” And sorry Sweetpea, a P-51 has been shown to be capable of aerobatics inside the airspace known as the "Box" and is therefore legal. Fred pointed this out a few years back when this question was hotly debated. Thanks for clarifing all the rules. I understand Basic is bring what you got. I doubt any CD in any country would tell a turbo prop guy they couldn't fly in Basic. Show me your AMA turbine waiver, safety gear and you would be good to go in the basic class. I'm actually very flexible in the Basic class.....that is what it is for, to bring folks into IMAC. Once you move up then its time to get serious. The AMA rules were written before Turbo prop aerobatic planes were available to the modeling public. I would expect to see a rule change when more turbo prop models become available like the Toucan. I did not know that a P-51 had made legal......but as I stated earlier it is still up to the contestant to show the CD that the said model is legal. Since I don't know Fred nor how it was deemed legal I would have to ask for proof. Of course if I was flying a model like that I would carry my proof with me to every contest until it was common knowledge by all modelers. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
ORIGINAL: TommyWatson Oh well, I guess I will just have to try to improve my flying by practicing by myself. And I really do need to improve my flying!!!. Regards |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
I would agree. The intent of the rule was to ban Jets vs aerobatic planes. Nothing against jets mind you....just that they have their own place and IMAC wasn't it.
It shouldn't really matter how you power your Prop on a aerobatic plane. Please be sure to go to the AMA site and fill out a rule change form and send it in. The process is every 2 yrs but if you don't fill one out it won't get changed! |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Thanks,
The plan is to fly a lot more with the Basic pattern in mind. Then I will find out when the next contest is to be held, call the CD to see if I will be allowed to compete. All I really want to do is see if my model is capable and If I have enough skill to compete and not make a fool of myself. I firmly believe that you can practice all day but by actually competing you really learn to fly. Anyway we will see. Regards |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Hey guys,
a question on turbines then, what if the real aircraft was powered by a gas turbine? How would that work? surely employing a gas turbine would be the most effective way to be faithful to scale, thus meeting a key intent of the rules? An example might be the Oracle Raven, powered by a PT6. Some details in the following link [link=http://www.waynehandley.com/archive.html]Raven details[/link] cheers, dawesy |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
The rules clearly state that only internal combustion or electric motors are allowed. Turbines are not allowed regardless of whether or not there was a full size plane with them.
Page SCA-2 - Scale Aerobatics rules" 4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft shall be allowed. Internal combustion reciprocating engines and electric motors shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing an internal combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be used. This rule applies to ALL aircraft, regardless of class. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Well this proves it is time for a rule change.
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RE: Turboprop in IMAC
ORIGINAL: Imac Kiwi Well this proves it is time for a rule change. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Does Australia follow all of our AMA rules?
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RE: Turboprop in IMAC
They do seem to follow the IMAC rules. I did not notice the country. My comments obviously apply only to the US.
I see no reason a turbine could not compete as long as the pilot had all the required waivers, etc. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Interestingly enough.. Rotary engines have been used in competition before.. and they're technically not a reciprocating engine. I think a case could be made that a turbo-prop IS in fact an internal combustion engine (since the combustion happens inside the engine), but the reciprocating aspect kind of ends the argument.
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RE: Turboprop in IMAC
ORIGINAL: TommyWatson Oh well, I guess I will just have to try to improve my flying by practicing by myself. And I really do need to improve my flying!!!. Regards As for the rules, they are grey - in one place it says it must be an internal combustion and reciprocating engine. Yet in another area, it only mentions "internal combustion". Last I checked, the combustion occures inside a turbine engine and is ther for considered an internal combustion engine... |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
Its easy...........email all the CD's or the Regional Director of the contest areas you plan to attend.
Submit a waiver request with them. They would then submit through the AMA. Also fill out the Rule change form. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
If I were the CD the only potential issue I would see is maybe noise... Other than that in Basic I would say go for it!
The Turbine is driving a prop via a gear box and is an internal combustion engine so I don't see why the rules should disallow it? I think it would probably be harder in the upper classes to fly the sequence with the engine lag (especially in windy conditions.) You might have an issue with your noise scores too. At least all the jets I have seen fly have been loud so I'm assuming a turboprop is also. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
I really only want to fly in Basic. My skill level is not up to much more. I just want to have something to aim for and try to improve my general flying.
The noise is not that great except at high speed when there is a lot of prop noise. The Throttle lag is something I am getting used to. My plan is to practice the basic pattern and then just turn up at the next contest. If the won't let me fly well too bad. Regards |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
ORIGINAL: TommyWatson I really only want to fly in Basic. My skill level is not up to much more. I just want to have something to aim for and try to improve my general flying. The noise is not that great except at high speed when there is a lot of prop noise. The Throttle lag is something I am getting used to. My plan is to practice the basic pattern and then just turn up at the next contest. If the won't let me fly well too bad. Regards Regards Terry Mac. |
RE: Turboprop in IMAC
I wish I had moved to Aus. a long time ago. You guys are a lot more laid back, and must be having more fun than we are. IMAC is the only place, here, that one can go to, and have fun.
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RE: Turboprop in IMAC
SilentAV8R, you are correct in quoting the IMAC rules as stating that reciprocating engines are allowed, but I do not think you are correct in saying that turbine props are not allowed. I do not see that anywhere!.I agree with those who say let him fly in Basic, and then apply to have the rule changed to allow suitable planes to use turbo-props. Ken. Gregory.
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