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Brownouts, first time

Old 02-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #26  
rgburrill
 
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: flycatch

I'm impressed with your knowledge pertaining to interference on the 72mhz band. I also have been there while flying on FM only. When I switched to PCM the rain stopped and the sun emerged. You are also right about PCM masking interference and not eliminating it.
Channel 44 and 46? And I flew on Channel 47 in a completely different area? And the local Channel 4 TV station just happened to boost it's broadcast power on Sunday mornings? Yes, Channel 4 TV on 66 to 72 MHz.
Old 02-08-2012, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Unless you are very near a large military installation I doubt you would see any issues. Remember most home corless phones (older ones) are running on 2.4 and they never have any problems. The source has to be very close, strong and broad to affect the Spekrum system.

Loose connections, switch, battery all far more likely. ... IMO


Jeff
Old 02-08-2012, 01:23 PM
  #28  
Tony Iannucelli
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

I used to fly on 72 exclusively - since 1972 - and still have three scale helis flying on 72mhz with 649SPCM receivers among other planes as well. Never an issue. I even remember when all we had was a handful of frequencies. It's fun going to the field with 72 now... I'm almost the last holdout. But clearly 2.4 is the way to go. I've been very happy with my 2.4 equipment for several years and still am. Yesterday's experiences were disconcerting, but we'll see if my equipment is the problem in a different field environment tomorrow and Friday. The guys that keep saying it's a battery issue or switch issue (I don't use switches, direct plug in on the jets) are most certainly not right in this case, but I agree that's often an issue. They are right that blinkers indicate a power interruption. I know how to place receivers in planes... I also know I have nine electrics currently flying that have had NO ISSUES for seven months, flying three times a week, 7-10 flights each day. Clearly the setups are correct. It's what is causing that interruption that we're looking for.

Nobody is out to get us. We are not near anyone... just that pesky pump tower. Tomorrow tells the story.

I did the garage test. Shut off the transmitters, receiver lights go out. Turn transmitter back on, the receiver lights come back solid. Unplug flight battery, and it sets off the blinkers. Pretty clear it's a power interruption. WHY?
Old 02-08-2012, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Try and test the receiver to see if you have quick connect on it. If you drop power for a moment while moving the sticks you shouldn't see more than a second or less of the servos not moving when the power is disrupted. This will help eliminate that part of the problem, then you can focus on other factors.


Jeff
Old 02-08-2012, 03:23 PM
  #30  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

I feel for you Tony! I have seen this happen to the best of em (the crash).

One thing I have noticed; I use deans connectors on my electrics (all small stuff), as you know Deans can be difficult to simply plug together at times. When I struggle for a split second my Rx always shows a brown out (blinking led) while it still connects to the Tx.

Just a thought... have no idea why the plane went down, that could be another issue.


Cheers,
Steve
Old 02-08-2012, 09:47 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: Tony Iannucelli

Thanks for responding John. Your answer is what we thought too, but we are left with why? We are using quality equipment. Mostly 3-4 cell lipo batteries that are 40-70C rated, some higher. BECs have been completely dependable, as have the ESCs in these planes. Four planes in one day, when for 6-7 months, no issues? Two diffferent transmitters? I need something else for an answer. It's not our equipment. We don't use 4.8 volt flight packs in our planes. There were no other R/C fliers within miles.


i had that same problem a few times in the past.... it was traced to be faulty satellite cables..... on one lead the wire was completely off, and on a couple one of the wired was frayed
Old 02-09-2012, 04:10 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

I would like to know what receiver you are using...  also, you need to check and see what PID is in your Spektrum Dx7 or 8 transmitter since there was a recall for some of last years models.  Another interesting tid-bit is that Orange receivers don't behave the same way as AR spektrum receivers.  When I do the "Transmitter-Off" test with an Orange receiver, IT DOES BLINK.   As others have noted, Spektrum receivers blink when there is a loss of power, but not when there is a loss of link.  If you are using a Spektrum Rx that has the data port, you might want to invest in the TM1000 module as this would allow you to see the number of frame losses, fades.  This is where the new Telemetry feature can be of a significant benefit.  I stumbled on it because the read-out was always Zero and I thought it wasn't working, then someone said do a Range test and go way way out until you do lose link.  I pressed the trainer button down and moved out while observing the link loss page, sure enough, the fades and frame losses started showing up.  This is real handy for experimenting with antenna placement.  Here's the code as to what the read- out means:

Press the button to display the following information:

A - Antenna fades on internal antenna A

B - Antenna fades on internal antenna B (not used on the AR8000)

L - Antenna fades on the left external antenna

R - Antenna fades on the right external antenna (not used on the AR8000)

F - Frame loss

H - Holds

Antenna fades

antenna. It’s normal to have as many as 50 to 100 antenna fades during a flight.

If any single antenna experiences over 500 fades in a single flight, the antenna

should be repositioned in the aircraft to optimize the RF link.

—represents the loss of a bit of information on that specific

Frame loss

If the RF link is performing optimally, frame losses per flight should be less than 20.

—represents simultaneous antenna fades on all attached receivers.

A Hold

second. If a hold occurs during a flight, it’s important to re-evaluate the system,

moving the antennas to different locations and/or checking to be sure the



transmitter and receivers are all working correctly.

- occurs when 45 continuous frame losses occur. This takes about one

I'm still in the camp of folks that believe in a broken wire someplace rather than intentional jaming or RF enviroment problems.  Its very difficult to locate a broken wire on the connector, but it does happen.  I had one such break recently on an electrical retract servo.  It just stopped working.  I would take the whole bloody thing out and it would work on the bench, but re-installed it stopped, turned out to be yellow, signal wire, busted off INSIDE the connector.  Visual inspection, everything looked OK,   The ole wiggle test finally uncovered the problem.
Old 02-09-2012, 06:24 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

brown outs happen and planes crash.
Old 02-09-2012, 06:34 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: blhollo2

brown outs happen and planes crash.
Generally speaking, this is from lack of an adaquate power system, or lack of a proper pre-flight.

My sense is he's past both of those issues.

At a minimum, reseat the remote reciever connectors, at best, try swapping the cables with a known good system.
Old 02-09-2012, 07:08 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

glad I have futaba!!!
Old 02-09-2012, 07:55 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: cloudancer03

glad I have futaba!!!
I know, because they have been problem free

(never mind the 0 GUID, and over heating recievers)

Just saying, nothing is perfect, though in general, our radio systems made by the main brands work pretty darn well.
Old 02-09-2012, 08:22 AM
  #37  
Tony Iannucelli
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Thanks again guys for your input. A few points to consider. This happened with four planes, not one, not with one type of receiver (which include almost every model of JR, Orange 6 and 9, and Spektrum), not with one type of ESC. There are no loose or broken wires. There are no old batteries. There are no faulty installations. We always preflight including checking our batteries. All have a fresh charge. We remind each other in that regard. All our planes and equipment have been bulletproof. We have flown them for months, with zero issues. Suddenly, in one day, we have four aircraft not functioning properly, using two different transmitters. Seems to be the radio link, nothing else. The question remains, WHY, suddenly - four planes?

Regarding receivers that someone asked about. All of the receivers I have ever used with 2.4 have been perfect as far as I can tell. The 921s I have seem to function like the 7000s, and even the 6200s and 6000s. No crashes, EVER (ok, not counting the two because of stupid thumbs, well documented). Same with the Orange receivers. We use Orange receivers in our less expensive planes, and have never had a problem. NEVER. They link up and work like all the others. Sorry if you've had issues with any of the receivers I've mentioned, but we haven't. Not in hundreds of flights, from 3D and sailplanes to a 130mph Evader. Using an Eagletree altimeter, we got 954 feet in a test run in a StrykerQ. That was a one time test, in clear air. Our usual altitudes are 10-200 feet.

By the way, bench tests are perfect, a mile away from the environment where the incidences occurred. Unplugging the flight pack is the only circumstance where blinking occurs on the bench. Shutting off the transmitter, leaving the receivers plugged in, shuts off the receiver lights. WHEN THE TRANSMITTER IS TURNED BACK ON, THE RECEIVER LIGHTS COME BACK ON SOLID. (Try it, they don't blink). They only will blink if the flight battery is disconnected and reconnected without turning off the transmitter.

In my limited experience with this the day before yesterday, the blinking does not matter when flying. It doesn't indicate lost range, response, or anything else. It's not a pulse signal. It's just what? A warning?

Flying later today. More details tonight for those interested. This string is getting too long to read all the posts for someone just joining the discussion. Sorry to repeat myself on some of this, but there's not much point if you are trying to help and not reading what has been said or covering the same ground.
Old 02-09-2012, 12:13 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

try to do this again, i'm having the same trouble here with a 9503 and 921s somtimes 2.4 seems like the sixtys with planes flying off.
Old 02-09-2012, 12:16 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

my lights blink with the bind plug in the recievers. don't know why.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:19 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

my lights blink with the bind plug in the recievers. don't know why.
Old 02-09-2012, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: straitnickel

my lights blink with the bind plug in the recievers. don't know why.
Your receiver lights should Blink if you insert the Bind Plug in the receiver and power up the receiver. That is part of the Bind Process and would be the only time you would have the Bind Plug inserted.

Are you trying to Bind?

I also have JR 921's, AR9000's, AR7000's, and AR6100's. They all behave the same.
Old 02-09-2012, 01:14 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

This is not a rapid flash, it goes solid then starts a slow blinking
Old 02-09-2012, 01:17 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Should add that it blinks with and without the bind plug inserted
Old 02-09-2012, 01:41 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: straitnickel

Should add that it blinks with and without the bind plug inserted
Per the manual, if your 921 has the firmware that supports Quick Connect, it should Blink every time you turn the power to the receiver Off and On. It should be slower Blinking than when you turn on the power to the Rx with the Bind Plug in. It is also important that your Satellite receivers have good wire connections and that they have the same firmware as the main Rx.

http://www.jrradios.com/ProdInfo/Fil...structions.pdf

http://www.helifreak.com/archive/index.php/t-57857.html

http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t392890p1/
Old 02-09-2012, 02:47 PM
  #45  
Tony Iannucelli
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Thanks for the links Rich. All the receivers we are using have Quick Connect, not just the 921s. Even the Orange receivers work the same way which is surprising to me. Anyway, the blinking occurs when there is a power interruption to any receiver so cutting the power and reconnecting with the transmitter on results in the blinking. Interesting to me is if you shut off the transmitter, but leave the receivers powered up, their lights go off, but as soon as the transmitter is reconnected, you get SOLID receiver lights. Which means to me.... a loss of receiver power is what we had, not transmitter power, or interrupted transmissions. Several guys have pointed this out, and we are also aware of it. Still wondering why FOUR events in one day, after having NONE for so long. Without repeating everything again, trust me, it's not the batteries.

The situation we had on Tuesday could not be duplicated today, using the same equipment. No glitches, no crashes, no issues of any kind. As a precaution, we are going to swap out some ESCs as a possible cause. I doubt that's an answer, but it's worth a shot. Intermittent problems, if that's what they turn out to be, are the worst.

Thanks for all the help guys. -Tony Iannucelli
Old 02-09-2012, 04:20 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: Tony Iannucelli

Thanks for the links Rich. All the receivers we are using have Quick Connect, not just the 921s. Even the Orange receivers work the same way which is surprising to me. Anyway, the blinking occurs when there is a power interruption to any receiver so cutting the power and reconnecting with the transmitter on results in the blinking. Interesting to me is if you shut off the transmitter, but leave the receivers powered up, their lights go off, but as soon as the transmitter is reconnected, you get SOLID receiver lights. Which means to me.... a loss of receiver power is what we had, not transmitter power, or interrupted transmissions. Several guys have pointed this out, and we are also aware of it. Still wondering why FOUR events in one day, after having NONE for so long. Without repeating everything again, trust me, it's not the batteries.

The situation we had on Tuesday could not be duplicated today, using the same equipment. No glitches, no crashes, no issues of any kind. As a precaution, we are going to swap out some ESCs as a possible cause. I doubt that's an answer, but it's worth a shot. Intermittent problems, if that's what they turn out to be, are the worst.

Thanks for all the help guys. -Tony Iannucelli
Well, disconnecting the Rx battery, while the Tx and Rx is on, and reconnecting the Rx battery, is the same as a Brownout, and should cause the slow Blinking lights.

Turning off the Tx, while the Rx is powered up, will cause the Rx to go into Failsafe. If you used the Bind Procedure, for Failsafe Hold, the Throttle goes to Idle and all other channels Hold. I did not notice if my 921 lights go out when the Rx goes inti Failsafe, but when you turn the Tx on again, the lights should go Solid.

You should invest in a Spektrum Flight Logger. You plug it in to the Data Port on the 921, and it will display Antenna Fades, Frame Losses, and Holds (Failsafe Events).
Old 02-09-2012, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

These http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/pr...hp?prod=XPS-TT are worth every penny....captures & holds a colored LED that matches the lowest voltage SPIKE seen during the flight....FWIW....
Old 02-09-2012, 04:41 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time


ORIGINAL: tande

These http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/pr...hp?prod=XPS-TT are worth every penny....captures & holds a colored LED that matches the lowest voltage SPIKE seen during the flight....FWIW....
Sounds good! Thanks!
Old 02-09-2012, 04:44 PM
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Tony Iannucelli
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Rich, regarding the flight logger, it's a good idea. The 921s weren't causing the issues but those receivers are in my best planes, so it's worth the $30 or whatever. On another note, failsafe to me means a gentler crash. I've never had a plane do that. My flying buddy may have had that happen in his crash the other day, however.

When you shut off the transmitter, the receiver lights go out if it's powered up. The failsafe is working then with no lights on? Turn the transmitter back on and the lights are solid. Hmmm... Might be better off with no lights at all, like the old days. I thought solid lights meant everything working as normal, and blinking lights also working as normal, but there had been a power interruption. If connected, no lights mean....?? No need to answer... it's inexplicable.

Thanks again Rich. -Tony
Old 02-09-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: Brownouts, first time

Tony,

Do any of your controls "lock up" when you power down and back on? If they do then you need the newer software (Quickconnect) which will eliminate the brown-out caused reboots.


Jeff

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