nitrate dope???
10-29-2010 | 01:46 PM
#27
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: airega1
Nothing like that old school method of mixing talcum powder and clear dope to seal wood, smooth like you've never witnessed
Nothing like that old school method of mixing talcum powder and clear dope to seal wood, smooth like you've never witnessed
To my knowledge, Nitrate only comes in clear version. Colored dope only comes in butyrate.
The talc is not expensive and reduce considerably the amount of dope usage. The talc act as a filler to fill the surface pores and tiny cracks or fissures. Larger gaps are better filled with a custom cut piece of wood that can be put in place and then affixed with the above mix of talc and dope.
Note that wood grain lifting is due to using the wrong piece of wood in which the grain is too much at an angle to the surface. If long grain wood is used, such as any wood filament is going at least 15 times the wood thickness, there is little grain lifting.
Just my obsevations and experience in finishing balsa surfaces.
Again, if no fabric is to be used, then we are sealing the wood to obtain a nice smooth surface for the application of further coatings. Nitrate dope is used because of its ability to penetrate as compared to butyrate and provide a compatible surface for further processing.
Zor
10-29-2010 | 02:05 PM
#28
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: drdoom
It has been a while for me: I forgot the difference between Nitrate and Butyrate Dope???
It has been a while for me: I forgot the difference between Nitrate and Butyrate Dope???
I do not know the formulalion of these two types of aircraft dope.
They are best used in different way or different application (usage).
The followng link has a lot of intereting and valuable information.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152318
Suggest spending a few minutes reading that thread.
Zor
10-29-2010 | 02:49 PM
#29
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: cutaway
"If you used Sig or Brodak, I don't think you would ever get out the sags and wrinkles."
I've been using Dharma's 5mm Habotai and covering dry. 3 thinned coats of Sig nitrate to fill the weave some, then 2/3 coats of Supercoat and its tight as a drum.
"If you used Sig or Brodak, I don't think you would ever get out the sags and wrinkles."
I've been using Dharma's 5mm Habotai and covering dry. 3 thinned coats of Sig nitrate to fill the weave some, then 2/3 coats of Supercoat and its tight as a drum.
The Sig dope purchased at a hobby store as it comes out of the containeris thin enough to be brushed on easily without any dilution (wihout adding thinner).
The number of coats needed to fully fill the weave depends (of course) on the thickness of the fabric.
I recetly used fabric 0.005 inch thick as measured with a Mitutoyo caliper and counted the fabric threads to be 80 threads per inch. ( About 60% transparency)
More than 6 coats of dope were needed to fill the fabric,
Note that the posting by cutaway says "to fill the weave some" which means not fully filled.
Two coats of colored butyrate is rarely sufficient to give a nice colored finish particularly if you wet sand the coats with 600 grit (or finer) wet paper and finish with "wet coats" of dope. Wet coats here means diluted dope just enough to let the dope flow as an even thickness without runs before it start setting (curing, drying).
For me 5 or more coats of colored were necesssary.
There is tautenng and non-tautening dope as labelled by some supplier or manufacaturer.
My experience is that I have never seen dope that does not tighten.
I think it is a matter of degree. Aero Gloss, Berry Brothers, Sig, Randoph, all have thightened nicely and keep doing so for ever. Some 50 year old planes are still "tight as a drum".
Zor
10-29-2010 | 03:03 PM
#30
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull
Since this follows my comment it seems to imply some sort of dilution. We sell Randolph dope to full scale builders and is "Non diluted in the container at purchase time." It's the very same product as Aircraft spruce so I don't know where the 3 times less labor comes from and all Randolph dealer prices are should be the same. After checking the previous Aircraft Spruce link, ours is pennies less but I wasn't going to mention it.
There must be some sort of RC UNiverse math I am not aware if here. "Conclusion 9 times less cost and only 1/3 the labor."
Always ask about shipping and HAZMAT FEES.
We DON'T CHARGE HAZMAT.
ORIGINAL: Zor
Randolph and Aircraft Spruce is the only choice for me.
Non diluted in the container at purchase time. Need 3 imes less coats.
and over here1/3 the price of the LHS.
Conclusion 9 times less cost and only 1/3 the labor.
One quart clear nitrate, one quart clear butyrate, one quart nitrate thinner, one quart butyrate thinner, one quart white butyrate.
At he LHS $152.00
Aircraf Spuce $52.00
$100.00 difference and 1/3 the work.
Zor
Randolph and Aircraft Spruce is the only choice for me.
Non diluted in the container at purchase time. Need 3 imes less coats.
and over here1/3 the price of the LHS.
Conclusion 9 times less cost and only 1/3 the labor.
One quart clear nitrate, one quart clear butyrate, one quart nitrate thinner, one quart butyrate thinner, one quart white butyrate.
At he LHS $152.00
Aircraf Spuce $52.00
$100.00 difference and 1/3 the work.
Zor
There must be some sort of RC UNiverse math I am not aware if here. "Conclusion 9 times less cost and only 1/3 the labor."
Always ask about shipping and HAZMAT FEES.
We DON'T CHARGE HAZMAT.
Hello Chip Mull,
I do not see any problems with the RCUniverse math.
The maths are from me (Zor).
If the cost is 3 times less and we need 3 times less coats (or amounts of product to do the job), Then the cost of a given job is 9 times less and 3 times less work to do it.
Zor
10-29-2010 | 03:54 PM
#31
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Konrad
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.
All the best,
Konrad
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.
All the best,
Konrad
10-29-2010 | 04:07 PM
#32
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
<span style="color: #ff0000">Please read red inserts ____
</span>
[quote]ORIGINAL: buzzard bait
Jim,
Thanks for the use of your posting.
Cheers,
Zor
</span>
[quote]ORIGINAL: buzzard bait
ORIGINAL: cutaway
''If you used Sig or Brodak, I don't think you would ever get out the sags and wrinkles.''
<span style="color: #ff0000">The line above seem to show a thought but not an experience.
It also bring up the question "What is shrinking and getting tight? The material (fabric) or the dope ? or both ?</span>
I've been using Dharma's 5mm Habotai and covering dry. 3 thinned coats of Sig nitrate to fill the weave some, then 2/3 coats of Supercoat and its tight as a drum.
<span style="color: #ff0000">All dopes I have used over the years do some thightening.
</span><span style="color: #ff0000">I was curious if polyester do thighten and I tried to see the effect of heat on a covering of a horizontal tail (stab and elev). Any heat applied did not seem to do enough to talk about. I used a hair drier 1500 watts and ended up with the dier acually touching the material and waiting for any noticeable results. Nothing worth talking about was evident (At least you read the method I used).
</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">Now it might be helpfull to read the following ___
I apply the fabric by gluing the perimeter. I make sure there is no obvious winkles but I do not try to do any tight pulling. Just nice and smooth without winkles. The dope does the tightening.
When applying the first coat the fabric goes all loose and wrinkled as it is wetted by the dope. It looks like a catastrophy. Soon it all tightens up as the dope cures. he second coat usually do the same as it fuses into the first coat but soon again tighten up. As more coats are added the fusion does not reach right through and less wrinkling is happening.
</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">
Some basic thinking ____by Zor ____
A thread of fabric has a certain tensile strength. try to break a size 10 sewing threads. Be careful, you could cut your hands seriously particularly if you try to jerk it from loose and give it a "wham" rapidly.
For a fabric to tear each thread has to break and that can only happen in tension.
If each thread of the fabric is soakedin or surrouned by an adhesive and bound to the wood (or any substrate) it gives the wood structure considerable strength. That adhesive in our process is the nitrate dope ability to penetrate and bind each thread to the structure.
Polyester, nylon and silk are the preferred fabric but be careful about silk.
While genuine silk made by the worms is recognized as having the best strength to weight ratio, the silk available in stores these days is not genuine silk from the worms. It is a fabric which imitates the look, appearance and touch of genuine silk and has different characteristics.
</span>
This was exactly what I said about Thai Silks vs. Dharma. You quoted what I said about Thai Silks, which is pre-shrunk. Dharma, as I said, is not, so it shrinks.
So to repeat, if you use Thai Silk with Sig or Brodak, you probably won't be able to get it taut. Dharma is a different matter because it is not pre-shrunk.
<span style="color: #ff0000">You probably won't be able to get it taut. ( line above) . . . .
All the dopes brands I have used over the years, all ended up tightening (tautening).
That has been so even on knitted silk as compared to woven.
Some wings were covered with old ladies silk stockings just pulled over the wing from tip to root.
No cutting, just pull like a lady put on her stockings and dope it.
</span>Jim
''If you used Sig or Brodak, I don't think you would ever get out the sags and wrinkles.''
<span style="color: #ff0000">The line above seem to show a thought but not an experience.
It also bring up the question "What is shrinking and getting tight? The material (fabric) or the dope ? or both ?</span>
I've been using Dharma's 5mm Habotai and covering dry. 3 thinned coats of Sig nitrate to fill the weave some, then 2/3 coats of Supercoat and its tight as a drum.
<span style="color: #ff0000">All dopes I have used over the years do some thightening.
</span><span style="color: #ff0000">I was curious if polyester do thighten and I tried to see the effect of heat on a covering of a horizontal tail (stab and elev). Any heat applied did not seem to do enough to talk about. I used a hair drier 1500 watts and ended up with the dier acually touching the material and waiting for any noticeable results. Nothing worth talking about was evident (At least you read the method I used).
</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">Now it might be helpfull to read the following ___
I apply the fabric by gluing the perimeter. I make sure there is no obvious winkles but I do not try to do any tight pulling. Just nice and smooth without winkles. The dope does the tightening.
When applying the first coat the fabric goes all loose and wrinkled as it is wetted by the dope. It looks like a catastrophy. Soon it all tightens up as the dope cures. he second coat usually do the same as it fuses into the first coat but soon again tighten up. As more coats are added the fusion does not reach right through and less wrinkling is happening.
</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">
Some basic thinking ____by Zor ____
A thread of fabric has a certain tensile strength. try to break a size 10 sewing threads. Be careful, you could cut your hands seriously particularly if you try to jerk it from loose and give it a "wham" rapidly.
For a fabric to tear each thread has to break and that can only happen in tension.
If each thread of the fabric is soakedin or surrouned by an adhesive and bound to the wood (or any substrate) it gives the wood structure considerable strength. That adhesive in our process is the nitrate dope ability to penetrate and bind each thread to the structure.
Polyester, nylon and silk are the preferred fabric but be careful about silk.
While genuine silk made by the worms is recognized as having the best strength to weight ratio, the silk available in stores these days is not genuine silk from the worms. It is a fabric which imitates the look, appearance and touch of genuine silk and has different characteristics.
</span>
This was exactly what I said about Thai Silks vs. Dharma. You quoted what I said about Thai Silks, which is pre-shrunk. Dharma, as I said, is not, so it shrinks.
So to repeat, if you use Thai Silk with Sig or Brodak, you probably won't be able to get it taut. Dharma is a different matter because it is not pre-shrunk.
<span style="color: #ff0000">You probably won't be able to get it taut. ( line above) . . . .
All the dopes brands I have used over the years, all ended up tightening (tautening).
That has been so even on knitted silk as compared to woven.
Some wings were covered with old ladies silk stockings just pulled over the wing from tip to root.
No cutting, just pull like a lady put on her stockings and dope it.
</span>Jim
Thanks for the use of your posting.
Cheers,
Zor
10-29-2010 | 05:08 PM
#33
RE: nitrate dope???
Regarding Konrad's question, modern dope is apparently entirely compatible with old dope, nitrate or butyrate. At least, I have patched up 35 year-old airplanes using modern dope. The thinners used may vary since they have several components. I've been using dope a long time without noticing any change or problems. If the plane is old enough you can even put nitrate on top of butyrate, which I have done. I think nitrate sticks a little better, so that's what I put down first, then the butyrate.
I think what you are referring to is Aero Gloss, which was different from other dopes and got reformulated at some point. Maybe others can comment on that.
Jim
I think what you are referring to is Aero Gloss, which was different from other dopes and got reformulated at some point. Maybe others can comment on that.
Jim
10-29-2010 | 06:04 PM
#34
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Konrad</p>
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.</p>
All the best,</p>
Konrad
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.</p>
All the best,</p>
Konrad
Konrad,</p>
Ican hardly believe that this is you.
So nice to see you here.</p>
I do not know about the formulations.
I do know that some recently acquired dope can be used to repair (patch) old doped covering.</p>
I have patched a wing that had a tear about 3 inches long between two ribs.
It teared because it was not a strong fabric. It was heavy tissue paper like we see for Xmas wrapping that had been doped with Berry Brothers dope about 40 years ago. So, real old dope.</p>
So I experimented knowing that dope penetrates previous coats (fuses) .
I first used some butyrate thinner to wet the area around the tear.
The old dope softened enough to scrape off a layer this removing any dirt, wax and get to the inner part of the layer. I applied some new Sig clear butyrate dope and it did not seem to create any problems. It cured in about 30 minutes (dry to the touch).</p>
I cut a piece of similar tissue and applied dope on boh the wing and one side of the patch tissue and matched them together. I was amaxed of the results when the dope cured. I applied more dope on the outside surface of the patch and the repair is visible but ok.</p>
Perhaps the bad results reported might be due to leaving dirt and waxy stuff</p>
Zor
</p>
10-29-2010 | 06:13 PM
#35
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From: palm harbor,
FL
RE: nitrate dope???
when I started the thread I wasnt sure why getting sig dope was hard to do.then I forgot years ago when I flew with the stars in ny and Jim Messer we always used randolpdh does and paints.they even sell balsa in blocks and ply and spruce.Back then we mixed good ole talc powder with the nitrate.then used butyrate to make the covering fuel proof.my friend uses dope for all his planes as he limits his building to ww1 and early era planes..
I thought all dope tightened but I buy any dopes from aircraft spruce co.I need to understand the difference in tautening vrsus non -tautening.and I did get brodak as the shop didnt have any sig product.it worked fine.
I used the dope on koverall and it was fine..
I thought all dope tightened but I buy any dopes from aircraft spruce co.I need to understand the difference in tautening vrsus non -tautening.and I did get brodak as the shop didnt have any sig product.it worked fine.
I used the dope on koverall and it was fine..
10-29-2010 | 07:31 PM
#36
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From: Everett,
WA
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: buzzard bait
Regarding Konrad's question, modern dope is apparently entirely compatible with old dope, nitrate or butyrate. At least, I have patched up 35 year-old airplanes using modern dope. The thinners used may vary since they have several components. I've been using dope a long time without noticing any change or problems. If the plane is old enough you can even put nitrate on top of butyrate, which I have done. I think nitrate sticks a little better, so that's what I put down first, then the butyrate.
I think what you are referring to is Aero Gloss, which was different from other dopes and got reformulated at some point. Maybe others can comment on that.
Jim
Regarding Konrad's question, modern dope is apparently entirely compatible with old dope, nitrate or butyrate. At least, I have patched up 35 year-old airplanes using modern dope. The thinners used may vary since they have several components. I've been using dope a long time without noticing any change or problems. If the plane is old enough you can even put nitrate on top of butyrate, which I have done. I think nitrate sticks a little better, so that's what I put down first, then the butyrate.
I think what you are referring to is Aero Gloss, which was different from other dopes and got reformulated at some point. Maybe others can comment on that.
Jim
10-29-2010 | 07:39 PM
#37
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From: Everett,
WA
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Zor
</p>
Konrad,</p>
I can hardly believe that this is you.
So nice to see you here.</p>
I do not know about the formulations.
I do know that some recently acquired dope can be used to repair (patch) old doped covering.</p>
I have patched a wing that had a tear about 3 inches long between two ribs.
It teared because it was not a strong fabric. It was heavy tissue paper like we see for Xmas wrapping that had been doped with Berry Brothers dope about 40 years ago. So, real old dope.</p>
So I experimented knowing that dope penetrates previous coats (fuses) .
I first used some butyrate thinner to wet the area around the tear.
The old dope softened enough to scrape off a layer this removing any dirt, wax and get to the inner part of the layer. I applied some new Sig clear butyrate dope and it did not seem to create any problems. It cured in about 30 minutes (dry to the touch).</p>
I cut a piece of similar tissue and applied dope on boh the wing and one side of the patch tissue and matched them together. I was amaxed of the results when the dope cured. I applied more dope on the outside surface of the patch and the repair is visible but ok.</p>
Perhaps the bad results reported might be due to leaving dirt and waxy stuff</p>
Zor
</p>
ORIGINAL: Konrad</p>
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.</p>
All the best,</p>
Konrad
I have a question about formulations. It is my understanding that the dope of today is not compatible with the dope of yesterday (15+ years ago). I was told that the formulation was changed to meet some EPA mandate. I'm told that the new formula will lift the old formula when trying to make a patch repair.
So I'd like to know if this is in fact true and if so does it apply to both Nitrate and Butyrate dopes.</p>
All the best,</p>
Konrad
Konrad,</p>
I can hardly believe that this is you.
So nice to see you here.</p>
I do not know about the formulations.
I do know that some recently acquired dope can be used to repair (patch) old doped covering.</p>
I have patched a wing that had a tear about 3 inches long between two ribs.
It teared because it was not a strong fabric. It was heavy tissue paper like we see for Xmas wrapping that had been doped with Berry Brothers dope about 40 years ago. So, real old dope.</p>
So I experimented knowing that dope penetrates previous coats (fuses) .
I first used some butyrate thinner to wet the area around the tear.
The old dope softened enough to scrape off a layer this removing any dirt, wax and get to the inner part of the layer. I applied some new Sig clear butyrate dope and it did not seem to create any problems. It cured in about 30 minutes (dry to the touch).</p>
I cut a piece of similar tissue and applied dope on boh the wing and one side of the patch tissue and matched them together. I was amaxed of the results when the dope cured. I applied more dope on the outside surface of the patch and the repair is visible but ok.</p>
Perhaps the bad results reported might be due to leaving dirt and waxy stuff</p>
Zor
</p>
I recall having the base coat (old) curdle (wrinkle) on some classic covering system when I put the same product and name brand stuff over it but much newer. I thought it was dope.
I have a hard time just remembering what works. Trying to remember all the details of my failures is beyond my limited capacity.
All the best,
Konrad
10-29-2010 | 07:43 PM
#38
RE: nitrate dope???
HI
I DID silk and dope 50 years ago with extremely good results i use dope these days to fuel proof engine compartments and under monocoat any place i know fuel will get under the covering( is lighter and dries faster than epoxie )
correct me if i am wrong been a while ,nitrate dope can be used as a base coat-i never liked the talcum powder in my clear to seal any wood surfaces-5-6 coats of clear -with sanding between coats got me a good base coat to the best of my knowledge NITRATE DOPE IS NOT FUEL PROOF and must be coated with a BUTYRATE DOPE to get the fuel proof qualities we require especially with the use of high nitro fuels10% or better
been building for 26 years in total ,20 have been in RC-monocoat long term leaves a lot to be desired have some planes 20 years old that i take down to fly ,coverings always lifting in spots-or whole sections coming off the wing sometimes get frustrating at times
because of this i am going to strongly consider using monocoat only on the aerias that have open bays -and paint as much of the wood on the aircraft that might be possible
thanks for the info on were to purchase dope cheep i have been paying 6 dollars for a jar at the LHSand they often do not have the larger sizes available
i did used AEROGLOSS that i bought in quarts back in the day (love to say that !)i was told that it is not nitrate or butyrate dope but not sure what was different about AEROGLOSS ( do not think they still make the stuff )
i know you can use acetone as the thinner for butyrate dope with the same results as the thinner you purchase-not sure if that applies to nitrate dope though as my experience with nitrate is limited
below is a picture of my 20 year old 40 size SIG UGLY STIK , i just this year put anheadral in the wing found it flys best this way and adds to the UGLY ( much less control coupling ) the wing is silk and dope and stronger than any film i have ever used . she has 500 plus flights on herbeen refinished 3 times-( the last just recently ) and always a relaxed days flying at the field ENJOY BEST REGARDS TONY
I DID silk and dope 50 years ago with extremely good results i use dope these days to fuel proof engine compartments and under monocoat any place i know fuel will get under the covering( is lighter and dries faster than epoxie )
correct me if i am wrong been a while ,nitrate dope can be used as a base coat-i never liked the talcum powder in my clear to seal any wood surfaces-5-6 coats of clear -with sanding between coats got me a good base coat to the best of my knowledge NITRATE DOPE IS NOT FUEL PROOF and must be coated with a BUTYRATE DOPE to get the fuel proof qualities we require especially with the use of high nitro fuels10% or better
been building for 26 years in total ,20 have been in RC-monocoat long term leaves a lot to be desired have some planes 20 years old that i take down to fly ,coverings always lifting in spots-or whole sections coming off the wing sometimes get frustrating at times
because of this i am going to strongly consider using monocoat only on the aerias that have open bays -and paint as much of the wood on the aircraft that might be possible
thanks for the info on were to purchase dope cheep i have been paying 6 dollars for a jar at the LHSand they often do not have the larger sizes available
i did used AEROGLOSS that i bought in quarts back in the day (love to say that !)i was told that it is not nitrate or butyrate dope but not sure what was different about AEROGLOSS ( do not think they still make the stuff )
i know you can use acetone as the thinner for butyrate dope with the same results as the thinner you purchase-not sure if that applies to nitrate dope though as my experience with nitrate is limited
below is a picture of my 20 year old 40 size SIG UGLY STIK , i just this year put anheadral in the wing found it flys best this way and adds to the UGLY ( much less control coupling ) the wing is silk and dope and stronger than any film i have ever used . she has 500 plus flights on herbeen refinished 3 times-( the last just recently ) and always a relaxed days flying at the field ENJOY BEST REGARDS TONY
10-29-2010 | 09:10 PM
#39
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From: Brea, CA
RE: nitrate dope???
In General:
Nitrate dope is a lot "stickier" than Butyrate- it makes a much better bond to the wood. It usually will not lift or separate, and is usually just about impossible to get off, even if you want to. I have a model almost 30 years old where the nitrate dope is still tightly adhered to even brass fittings coming out of the plane. It dries quick and hard and sands easily. Butyrate is a little nasty and low grade by comparison. Nitrate isn't fuel proof, so you have to give your methanol-and-nitro fueled plane a final coat of clear epoxy. I don't know for sure, but I think nitrate is okay with auto-gas powered planes without fuel-proofer. And it's true, it does burn pretty quick, but 'explosive'? c'mon, get real. It's good stuff- a lot of guys who use it won't even use Butyrate.
Nitrate dope is a lot "stickier" than Butyrate- it makes a much better bond to the wood. It usually will not lift or separate, and is usually just about impossible to get off, even if you want to. I have a model almost 30 years old where the nitrate dope is still tightly adhered to even brass fittings coming out of the plane. It dries quick and hard and sands easily. Butyrate is a little nasty and low grade by comparison. Nitrate isn't fuel proof, so you have to give your methanol-and-nitro fueled plane a final coat of clear epoxy. I don't know for sure, but I think nitrate is okay with auto-gas powered planes without fuel-proofer. And it's true, it does burn pretty quick, but 'explosive'? c'mon, get real. It's good stuff- a lot of guys who use it won't even use Butyrate.
10-29-2010 | 11:54 PM
#40
Senior Member
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull
You only need Nitrate Dope if you are covering with Polyester. the Nitrate is trying to establish a chemical bond to the fabric, then the Butyrate goes on top of the Nitrate. Nitrate is very explosive. The pictures of the Hindenburg burning is mostly pictures of Nitrate burning. There were lots of thoughts on ways to save weight on full scale planes. Some folks even painted the entire aircraft in Nitrate then Nitrate with silver powder in it for UV protection and the top coat was only enamel. Of course it cracked and they didn't really save any weight.
ORIGINAL: drdoom
It has been a while for me: I forgot the difference between Nitrate and Butyrate Dope???
It has been a while for me: I forgot the difference between Nitrate and Butyrate Dope???
You only need Nitrate Dope if you are covering with Polyester. the Nitrate is trying to establish a chemical bond to the fabric, then the Butyrate goes on top of the Nitrate. Nitrate is very explosive. The pictures of the Hindenburg burning is mostly pictures of Nitrate burning. There were lots of thoughts on ways to save weight on full scale planes. Some folks even painted the entire aircraft in Nitrate then Nitrate with silver powder in it for UV protection and the top coat was only enamel. Of course it cracked and they didn't really save any weight.
I don't use fabric on my planes...silkspan over balsa for bedding, for the lightest of finishes. Nitrate dries well in relatively short time compared to butyrate. Accepts pretty much all other finishing systems like Stits, epoxy, PU and of course good ol' butyrate dope.
Randolph's is about the only game in town.
10-30-2010 | 01:12 AM
#41
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
Hello Tony0707,
The reason I use fabric all over is because of the considerable extra strength it gives to the structure.
Every single fabric thread becomes intimately bound to the wood by the nitrate dope.
My Super Skyolt recently ran out of fuel and could not reach the runway so it came to ground at flying speed into the trees. It was retrieved from the trees without a scratch, nothing damaged buta small crack on one of the wheel pants that had not been properly assembled and the reason for that is that the two halfs of that wheel pants were 3 /16 inch different in length as it came in the kit. So a butched job of cementing together was the best that could be done.
Nice to see you here and thanks for your participation.
Zor
The reason I use fabric all over is because of the considerable extra strength it gives to the structure.
Every single fabric thread becomes intimately bound to the wood by the nitrate dope.
My Super Skyolt recently ran out of fuel and could not reach the runway so it came to ground at flying speed into the trees. It was retrieved from the trees without a scratch, nothing damaged buta small crack on one of the wheel pants that had not been properly assembled and the reason for that is that the two halfs of that wheel pants were 3 /16 inch different in length as it came in the kit. So a butched job of cementing together was the best that could be done.
Nice to see you here and thanks for your participation.
Zor
10-30-2010 | 01:28 AM
#42
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
I do not really know if it is available in color somewhere.
The people around here who rebuild fabric covered light airplanes tell me that only butyrate is available in colors. The localdistributors of Randolph dope.gave me the same information.
Zor
10-30-2010 | 01:34 AM
#43
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From: Hoodsport, WA
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Zor
My Super Skyolt recently ran out of fuel and could not reach the runway so it came to ground at flying speed into the trees. It was retrieved from the trees without a scratch, nothing damaged but a small crack on one of the wheel pants that had not been properly assembled and the reason for that is that the two halfs of that wheel pants were 3 /16 inch different in length as it came in the kit. So a butched job of cementing together was the best that could be done.
My Super Skyolt recently ran out of fuel and could not reach the runway so it came to ground at flying speed into the trees. It was retrieved from the trees without a scratch, nothing damaged but a small crack on one of the wheel pants that had not been properly assembled and the reason for that is that the two halfs of that wheel pants were 3 /16 inch different in length as it came in the kit. So a butched job of cementing together was the best that could be done.
So, go ahead, claim a "thick skin", and dance your dance and demand your final word, even though in your next post you'll declare that it is your last post. Then there will be another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another.
And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another. And another.
EJWash
10-30-2010 | 01:43 AM
#44
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From: Hoodsport, WA
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: Zor
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...randoproof.php
EJWash
10-30-2010 | 07:48 AM
#45
RE: nitrate dope???
Aerodyne has been selling it for years. Some diesel guys like it, and then of course towline gliders, trim on rubber models, etc.:
http://www.freeflightmodels.com/index.html
Go to the top of the page and click on Building Supplies.
Jim
http://www.freeflightmodels.com/index.html
Go to the top of the page and click on Building Supplies.
Jim
10-30-2010 | 08:59 AM
#46
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: EJWash1
Really? Best to call Aircraft Spruce (a vendor that you mention) and demand that they STOP selling (at least) green nitrate dope:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...randoproof.php
EJWash
ORIGINAL: Zor
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...randoproof.php
EJWash
sadly we have 2 RCG troublemakers here on RCU (wonder why[:-]) and both have responded with less than proper intent here in this thread.
10-30-2010 | 09:43 AM
#47
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: EJWash1
Really? Best to call Aircraft Spruce (a vendor that you mention) and demand that they STOP selling (at least) green nitrate dope:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...randoproof.php
EJWash
ORIGINAL: Zor
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
Hi buzzard350,
The unfortunate situation is that nitrate does not come in colors.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...randoproof.php
EJWash
It is a special formulation with additives for the initial coat on Ceconite fabric and for applying tapes. This is the recommended first coat in the Ceconite/Randolph system.
One quart $14.10
One gallon $41.90
5 gallons $202.95
I cannot blame their staff to inform me that only butyrate dope comes in color to finish a color scheme on an airplane.
Nitrate, non tautening, also comes tinted blueas initial coating forCeconite or heat shrunk polyester fabric.Ithas additonal plasticzers for slow shrinkingafter application.
Zor
10-30-2010 | 07:26 PM
#49
Banned
RE: nitrate dope???
ORIGINAL: buzzard bait
Aerodyne has been selling it for years. Some diesel guys like it, and then of course towline gliders, trim on rubber models, etc.:
http://www.freeflightmodels.com/index.html
Go to the top of the page and click on Building Supplies.
Jim
Aerodyne has been selling it for years. Some diesel guys like it, and then of course towline gliders, trim on rubber models, etc.:
http://www.freeflightmodels.com/index.html
Go to the top of the page and click on Building Supplies.
Jim
Go and have a look here ___
http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcb...p;page=#354572
you may find it very interesting.
Another interesting observation is that Aerodyneare listing six colors for nitrateand their butyrate onlyshows clear.
Jim ___would you be so kind to show a picture of an Aerodyne colored nitrate dope container ?
Many thanks for your cooperation.
Zor
10-30-2010 | 07:35 PM
#50
RE: nitrate dope???
Not sure what the point of all that was. I bought some colored nitrate from Aerodyne years ago. Worked fine for my purposes at the time, and very much reminded me of the color dope I had bought in England in 1958 as a kid, building my first model airplane. But I wouldn't use it now because the majority of my engines use glow fuel.
Jim
Jim
