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Fabric covering questions

Old 06-18-2013, 08:29 AM
  #76  
Zor
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions


ORIGINAL: sensei

Zor,

Give it a rest and leave that poor guy alone, or you may be considered a stalker in some circles...

Bob
Bob (sensei),

Your advice is well received. I will give it a rest even though I have spent many hours yesterday to put together a package on covering and finishing my Skybolt. This package is going into more details that could have been more helpful.

It is not encouraging to spend much time to help and not get any feedback when hours of efforts have even been seen or read by the main intended recipient and requester.

I hope that your own request to me to prove that I am not the type of fellow described by a third party has also been satisfied. The 15 pictures I posted are of work that I did and photographed in my home. They are not borrowed or copies from magazines or from other threads like have been claimed by the third party in respect of some previous pictures I posted in various threads.

I may have to decide to delete my postings in this thread to avoid being accused of highjacking the thread now that I hope you realize that I am not a fellow trolling the forum.

i do not see any reasons to pursue this matter further.

Zor
Old 06-18-2013, 09:17 AM
  #77  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

This thread was hijacked with a passion a long time ago. As a matter of fact, the OP asked about removing a dope and fabric finish, and Chip Mull answered it in the second post. The OP thanked Chip for his time and that was that. Maybe that's why the OP hasn't posted further? To chase down the OP and ask if he's "done with" this thread reminds me of the behavior of a hermit crab commandeering yet another shell. The only difference here is that at least the hermit crab has the courtesy to wait until the shell is empty.
I think it would be great to have a thread about covering our models with dope and fabric - somewhere else in its own deserved thread.I also think it would be great if experienced modelers contributed to it. By "experienced", I mean modelers that are craftsmen that produce finishes that set the bar for others to strive to meet. In the Sig Liberty Sport build thread I posted the link to, we have a builder that does just that. He gave his method, reasons, and showed impressive results.*That* is one example, and there are others, of what is referred to as "setting the bar".
Covering model aircraft with dope and fabric is this hobby's heritage. Many model designs demand to be covered in this method less they come out looking like a Model-T Ford with Goodyear high-performance radial tires. Sure the old fabric and the old dope is still available, but there are new synthetic coverings and new dope formulas that are designed to go along with them. The intermixing of the two (old plant-based dope used with synthetic fabrics) is a big no-no according to Randolph dope (http://www.randolphaircraft.com/210dope.html). Did this "tutorial" include this information? No. Instead, I get attacked by this self-imposed "teacher" when I posted that dope is a plasticized lacquer, which it is. This type of anger and ignorance do not belong in the virtual classroom.
The OP has his answer. If a discussion about covering with dope and fabric pursues from the OP's question, post a link to a newly created thread featuring the topic of covering with dope and fabric.
Old 06-18-2013, 10:33 AM
  #78  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

Nicely put, often topics go off on a tangent mostly by people that have their own agenda to promote.
Old 06-18-2013, 03:36 PM
  #79  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

ORIGINAL: swify

Nicely put, often topics go off on a tangent mostly by people that have their own agenda to promote.
swify,

I am with you concerning having an agenda to promote.
That agenda should not be to degrade anyone and in particular Canadians.

When I initially read post #2 I immediatly felt some promotion for F&M products.
I do not blame anyone to do their promotion but I considered their specialty for RC models.
I have not seen full size licensed aircraft covered and finihed with Stits products and I have always felt that building model airplanes should be finished like the fabric covered full size so i contributed to this thread and posted a few pictures. If nothing else it helped decorating the thread .

I am now grateful to Bob (sensei) who found a polite way of proving wrong who wrote that no one would see any of my work as I am not a modeler but only a trouble maker in the forum. I am sure that most readers know who is the real trouble maker. I am not a liar either as accused and I believe the moderators realize that.

Nice to read some Canadian participants.

Zor
Old 06-18-2013, 03:56 PM
  #80  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

Wow! The Canadian Government should use your services as a Spin Doctor. You're far better at it than building models. It was Bob that told you that you are not a builder a few weeks ago, and he did so in no uncertain terms. You got slapped-around pretty good. You were coaxed into showing your work here and nothing more, and you fell for it. Folks, raise your hand if you're really looking for the same results as you've witnessed in the "tutorial" here.

We are lucky to have F&M offering merchandise to the modeling community. On the one hand, you elevate yourself as some demogouge of "the good old times". Now here is F&M catering to our needs offering materials to build in a traditional way. Chip, the owner of F&M participates in these forums and answered the OP's question very quickly, gladly, and for free. Are you really saying that you see it your place on these forums to joust at our merchantile supporters, just because they're a business, as if they are a windmill? Is there enough left to actually make-up your mind here up there?

As for the moderators, they say that YOU are the MOST reported member on R/C Universe. In this thread at least one member says that YOU are the reason they do not post. I have never been in any other model airplane forum where any other member can claim this "honor". These are not accolades one should be proud of. Unless...
You're going to pop a vein or something, which ain't gonna be a good thing. Calm-down and get a hobby.
Old 06-18-2013, 05:24 PM
  #81  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions


ORIGINAL: Zor

ORIGINAL: swify

Nicely put, often topics go off on a tangent mostly by people that have their own agenda to promote.
swify,

I am with you concerning having an agenda to promote.
That agenda should not be to degrade anyone and in particular Canadians.

When I initially read post #2 I immediatly felt some promotion for F&M products.
I do not blame anyone to do their promotion but I considered their specialty for RC models.
I have not seen full size licensed aircraft covered and finihed with Stits products and I have always felt that building model airplanes should be finished like the fabric covered full size so i contributed to this thread and posted a few pictures. If nothing else it helped decorating the thread .

I am now grateful to Bob (sensei) who found a polite way of proving wrong who wrote that no one would see any of my work as I am not a modeler but only a trouble maker in the forum. I am sure that most readers know who is the real trouble maker. I am not a liar either as accused and I believe the moderators realize that.

Nice to read some Canadian participants.

Zor
hey zor, dont worry about this crap,,,,hehe,,,,i trucked produce into montreal for many years every monday morning and did finde the frogs mostley very obnoxicious. not so the english canadians,,,,the frence up at riviere de lope were very nice people. anyway it seems like there are some americans that have the frog mentality here on this forum,,,, . i do find that the ceconite covering makes for a great carry home bag so i dont drop a zillion tiny riped up balsa bits allover the place. i prefer to remove the servos etc at home. thats only 3000 feet across the long field where i fly and crash my junk,,,,i just throw the wreckage in its doped selfcontained bag of ceconite into the bucket on the front of my trusty old 2120 new holland farm tractor and away i go. anothre thing,,,i get 800 am from toronto pretty good at night sometimes. i really get a kick from some of these threads from people who take this hobby of building [or buying] these toysd and thinking they ncan really fly !,,,,i did learn long ago that being able to fly the real thing dosent make you in the least able to fly rc,,,,nor does flying rc make you a real pilot. the big difference is that the real thing can sure kill you quick. and the ceconite wont protect you nor your beutiful fly machine. carry on in the great frozen north zor,,,,hehe
Old 06-18-2013, 07:00 PM
  #82  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

ORIGINAL: Zor

ORIGINAL: swify

Nicely put, often topics go off on a tangent mostly by people that have their own agenda to promote.
swify,

I am with you concerning having an agenda to promote.
That agenda should not be to degrade anyone and in particular Canadians.

When I initially read post #2 I immediatly felt some promotion for F&M products.
I do not blame anyone to do their promotion but I considered their specialty for RC models.
I have not seen full size licensed aircraft covered and finihed with Stits products and I have always felt that building model airplanes should be finished like the fabric covered full size so i contributed to this thread and posted a few pictures. If nothing else it helped decorating the thread .

I am now grateful to Bob (sensei) who found a polite way of proving wrong who wrote that no one would see any of my work as I am not a modeler but only a trouble maker in the forum. I am sure that most readers know who is the real trouble maker. I am not a liar either as accused and I believe the moderators realize that.

Nice to read some Canadian participants.

Zor
For the record, Stits full scale covering and finishing system has been carried and sold by Aircraft Spruce & Specialty for over the last 30 years I know of. I have used it on my full scale home built aircraft as well as many others, and I have also used it on my models for many years. I covered My 70% Staudacher back in 1999 and top coated it in early 2000, I covered and painted my Full scale Piel Emeraude and my Sky Jacker Super Sport both over 25 years ago. In all three cases all are still in very good shape.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:45 AM
  #83  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

I, too, use the Stits Lite fabric and Poly-Tone paints from Chip at F&M Enterprises. I think you would be hard pressed to find a more realistic covering system for a fabric covered plane. The fabric may not be quite as easy as adhesive-backed Solartex to put on but produces results every bit as good, I feel its stronger, it will never sag on you, its easy to remove if ever necessary for repairs, and the Poly-Tone paints are very forgiving to work with. In addition, I've found Chip at F&M Enterprises to be a stand up guy who provides great service.
Old 06-19-2013, 05:05 AM
  #84  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

Here ya go Zor

Stits process for a "full" size :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiseCz2sMi0
Old 06-19-2013, 05:54 AM
  #85  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions




Preview This preview windows does not show attachments

RE: Fabric covering questions

Another vid of covering full size with fabric. But, this is basically the process for covering
an R/C with Sig's Koverall ( or possibly some older stiles of dress liner that weren't pre shrunk).

Find it pretty informative on the process except for the glue being used. Sig's Stix -It
is used for the Koverall; ( shrinkable fabric), and is used in the same way. Brushed on
were adhesion is needed. Dried, then fabric is ironed down where the Stix It was applied.
Then shrink the fabric with heat , strategically, as not to warp or bust the airframe.

Then when done, the fabric has to be sealed. What I know of is the use of Nitrate cut 50/50 brushed or sprayed.
3 Coats with sanding between with 400 grit.
Then a color top coat of preference.

But, its the same process as this. Best way, is experimentation on scrap before doing the
model, to see how it goes first.

But, this vid gives an idea of the process for those seeking to use a fabric covering that haven't used it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok-bVMjQpZo






Old 06-19-2013, 07:46 AM
  #86  
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

Round and round we go.
Old 06-19-2013, 10:46 AM
  #87  
Zor
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Default RE: Fabric covering questions

Hab and sensei,

I think you know by now that I have been a fabric (or paper based) covering and dope man since I started in the hobby in the 1950s.

Thanks to Hab for the two links in his postings.
Before receiving these postings I had gone to the Stits site and read that their product was specifically for model airplanes. I also understand that their finish is vinyl based.

Many years ago I spent time helping in an airplane refinishing shop where we were using polyester fabric and aircraft dope. I would think that vinyl finish was unknown in those times. It remains that I have never seen a full size airplane covered and finished with vinyl paint. I do not know the charcteristics of that vinyl paint. I do know that dope keeps tightening for years.

It appears to me that the airplanes appearing in these two links are so called "ultra light" and wonder if they get a "certificate of airworthiness" and if these airplanes can be used in commercial services. Perhaps you can enlighten me on that point of view.

Incidentally, the stix-it I have is nearly clear in color. The green looking adhesive seen in these links is painted on as a very thin layer and then the fabric is heated on. I cannot see that this process has much adhesive to penetrate the fabric fibers. I am not saying there is anything wrong but my method of using stix-it is different.

Here is what I do since I do not use heat. I brush on with a narrow brush (1/4 inch) a liberal coat of stix-it not exceeding about 6" in length because of the speed at which it start hardening and press the fabric in the adhesive and go over it with a smooth metal spade then apply a second coat of stix-it on top of the fabric and again smooth it out with the metal spade. I know that the adhesive is right through the fabric. To each his own method. I post what I do but never claim it is the only or the best way. When I apply the first coat of nitrate dope it goes through the transparency of the fabric and binds every fabric thread to any surface the fabric is in contact with thus the strength added to the structure by the fabric threads.

I read earlier a posting in which it was questioned that there is any necessity to cover a sheeted surface with fabric. A balsa sheeted surface is easily split along the wood grain by bending. The wood grain separates. Also bare wood may raise grain and if so needs lots of sanding to avoid a rough surface. By using the fabric over the sheeted surfaces the need for sanding is reduced to next to nothing. Also dope does not need any sanding. At worst some rare little pimple may appear if dust in the air deposits a timy particle on the wet dope. These can be sanded out locally with 600 grit cloth. The next coat will fuse into the sanded areas and the gloss will return. Doping should be done in a clean air atmosphere.

Sorry for being carried away and have a nice day.

Zor

Edited to correct a couple of typos upon reading again.



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