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Balsa USA Force One build

Old 12-10-2014, 06:13 PM
  #26  
mgnostic
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Originally Posted by juanjulian View Post
Matt

Sorry to bother you with more questions.
Your build and pictures have been invaluable for my edf intentions for this plane.

Intend to use a hayoe 90mm edf with a arc motor 36-75-1.5 for a estimated 2000watts of power
With 7lb plane.

The 15 inches are from elevator trailing edge or hinge line?

Nice to find real builders nowdays.

My planes in picture are a bashed long ez 46 for turbine wren44, the turbine ruin3d and the transformed to pusher electric with a weight penallty of a pound recently crashing it. Waiting for a repair. Look for my build. The other one is a rbc ta-183 70mm edf. The prop on3 is 3d ship mojo 60.

PLEASE ALSO INFORM SURFACE MOVEMENTS.

cheers,

JUAN
I'm happy to provide what information I can. I went down to the basement to find my manual. It indicated that the model should balance 13 inches ahead of the trailing edge of the wing. As I read the plans and compare them to my ruler that would be 13 inches forward of the point marked "A" on your airplane. By my plans the 15 inches I cited earlier would be from the point marked "B". The manual also says that the elevator should reflex up 1/8 from the neutral position. The control surface throws shold be 1/2 inch up and down on the elevator and 3/8 inch up and down on the ailerons. I hope the photos help.
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Old 02-16-2015, 08:21 PM
  #27  
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Sharing my edf modification.
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Old 02-22-2015, 09:29 AM
  #28  
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My apologies for not replying sooner. We recently sold the house where we lived to 20 years and everything is in storage at the moment. I can't recall if I measured from the trailing edge or the hinge line. If you use the hinge line it might be nose heavy and sluggish but it will at least be controllable if that is too far forward. If nose heavy the worst that will happen is that it won't rotate for take off. Tail heavy on the other hand is not a good thing.
Old 04-04-2015, 03:46 PM
  #29  
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Having blast with this plane.

Think edf is the way to go.
https://youtu.be/LfpRSBKpSlc

Cheers

Juan
Old 04-06-2015, 10:04 AM
  #30  
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Juan, nice airplane. Looks fast!

I was lucky to have a very good friend of mine build my Force One for me over the winter. I think he did an awesome job and hope to fly this for some time. It's built per plans, has a Magnum Pro 45 and the pitts muffler set up I envisioned. I think it looks much cleaner this way. I only had a chance to get two flights on it so far and it's been disappointing because the airplane wants to pitch up a lot. We reduced the up elevator setting but it hasn't made much of a difference. Next, we reduced the up aileron setting but didn't get a chance to fly it yet because it was getting dark. hopefully this will correct it.

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Old 04-06-2015, 07:29 PM
  #31  
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Quikturn

I had the same issue on maiden, due to the fact that had to guess thrust angle of edf. Reduced upthrust angle and part of problem solved. Then reduced the reflex on ailerons I had instead of elevator. By 5 flight reducing reflex got the plane to fly straight.

cheers

Juan

Last edited by juanjulian; 04-07-2015 at 09:42 AM. Reason: grammar
Old 09-27-2015, 01:29 PM
  #32  
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looks good how did it fly with a 46

Last edited by desert flier; 09-27-2015 at 01:34 PM.
Old 03-02-2016, 09:59 PM
  #33  
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Well, I've been away from this build for over a year and it is just over two years since I started. The Force One has been in storage and luckily there hasn't been too much hanger rash and nothing seems to have gotten lost. We are into a new house and life has started to slow down a little. I miss my old basement and I don't have a proper building area but given that I built my first RC airplane on a piece of ceiling tile laid on a trailer house floor I figure it is time to get back into the saddle.I glued on the leading edges to the wings last night and have started sanding the whole thing. No pictures yet but I should have something to show pretty soon.
Old 03-03-2016, 09:54 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mgnostic View Post
Well, I've been away from this build for over a year and it is just over two years since I started. The Force One has been in storage and luckily there hasn't been too much hanger rash and nothing seems to have gotten lost. We are into a new house and life has started to slow down a little. I miss my old basement and I don't have a proper building area but given that I built my first RC airplane on a piece of ceiling tile laid on a trailer house floor I figure it is time to get back into the saddle.I glued on the leading edges to the wings last night and have started sanding the whole thing. No pictures yet but I should have something to show pretty soon.
Welcome back. Just wanted to let you know I'm still with you.
Old 03-08-2016, 09:13 PM
  #35  
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Hi guys,

Before he passed, my dad built about 8 different versions of the Force One and the Enforcer, all electric, some prop driven and some EDF. He liked to scratch build so he scaled up and scaled down the design to fit whatever he was looking to do at the time.

He was a builder first, and a pilot last. I was the pilot on our team and I have a lot of time on the Force One and Enforcer. I still have about five of the different versions he built, but have not flown them since he passed.

The trick with the reflex is you set the elevator flat to the trailing edge of the wing and then reflex the ailerons up so that the bottom of the trailing edge of the ailerons are even with the top of the trailing edge of the elevator.

I need to to buy some batteries and such to get them back in the air, but by this summer, I will be flying at least some of them again.

Good luck!
Old 03-16-2016, 06:56 PM
  #36  
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Mickydee, feel free to post a photo(s) of your dad's Force One.
Moving on with my build I've been doing lots of sanding and filling. The dark red is Bondo brand glaze and filler. This stuff is good for small cracks and divots but it is heavy and it shrinks when it dries. I think it is basically a lot of red pigment in a lacquer base. I actually use a lot more lightweight drywall spackeling. It dries quickly and sands easily.
The hole in the bottom of the nose resulted from a notion that I wanted to go back to plastic pushrod activated control surfaces and to get the servos where I wanted them I was going to drop the servos through the fuselage floor about a quarter of an inch and build a fairing over the bottom of the fairing. I'm not sure why that seemed like a good idea at the time. That was a year ago and I am back to the idea of mounting the servos on the lower surface of the wing. As you will see in following posts the hole has been filed in a faired over.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:31 PM
  #37  
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Well, you can see the servo cutouts on the bottom of the wing. Although the construction portion of the build is still occurring I have started covering the wing in 0.5 oz fiberglass cloth. There are a couple of reasons for this. The first is related to my work area. I haven't yet recreated my building table. This build was started on a table made from a well supported hollow core door. That table was discarded after 20 years of faithful service when we moved. The new shop is going to be quite spacious but my current work surface is the top of a 1928 Atwater Kent radio. I kept getting a lot of little dings as I was working and the fiberglass really toughens up the surface. It is also easier to drape the lightweight cloth without the fins and strakes in the way. The covering process basically amounts to sanding the surface smooth, blowing it off and wiping it down with a tack cloth, spreading the fiberglass cloth over the surface and flowing Kwik-Poly into the cloth to adhere it to the plane. The 0.5 oz cloth is a little bit of a challenge to handle. Be sure your hands are clean and smooth. I often wear the thin nitrile gloves because a callus or a hang nail can easily snag the cloth. If a thread pulls it is easy to get a difficult to remove wrinkle in the cloth. Very small wrinkles and ripples can often be drawn out when spreading the resin. I really like Kwik-Poly resin. It is an interesting product that I think is mostly used for repairing horses' hooves and sealing gas tanks. It is a two part polyester resin that when mixed forms a liquid with a consistency of a thin oil. It flows easily and wicks into the glass cloth well. If the resin is spread smoothly it will level out attaching the cloth to the underlying surface with just a bit of the cloth weave showing through. A second coat will fill the weave. It is possible to lay down too much and get runs which will have to be scrapped or sanded off. When working with it I buy a sack of the cheapest foam brushes I can find. I hardens to a surface that accepts paint well and is easily sanded. It can be mixed with fillers or pigments. Kwik-Poly has a quality that is both a strength and an inconvenience. It has a very very short pot life. The up side is that you can cover a lot of area very quickly and it is ready to sand in about 10 minutes at room temperature. The down side is that in a warm room what ever amount you have mixed up will harden in about two minutes. My usual practice is to mix about 0.5 oz of each part in a disposable medicine cup and then quickly start spreading it. Spreading it with a foam brush works well and you don't have to squeegee it. When spread over a surface the reaction can't generate as much heat and it will stay in a fluid state for several minutes. If yo lay down too much and it starts to puddle you can blot it with a shop towel or even toilet paper. I usually buy myself a couple extra minutes of pot life by refrigerating the part A and part B components until just before use. It doesn't seem to effect the viscosity. Don't hold the cup with the mixed components in your hand. The heat from your fingers will cause it to set up more quickly. There is a little bit of a learning curve with this stuff but it allows you to knock out a fiber glassing job relatively quickly and it produces a strong light weight surface. When cured it tolerates both gasoline and glow fuel.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:14 PM
  #38  
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Mgnostic,

i have never posted any pictures before and don't know how to do it, but if you will PM me your number I can text you pictures from my I Phone.

M.
Old 03-17-2016, 05:48 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Mickydee1354 View Post
Mgnostic,

i have never posted any pictures before and don't know how to do it, but if you will PM me your number I can text you pictures from my I Phone.

M.
PM sent
Old 03-18-2016, 07:12 AM
  #40  
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Mickydee's models, A set of variations on the theme.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:14 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Mickydee1354 View Post
Hi guys,

Before he passed, my dad built about 8 different versions of the Force One and the Enforcer, all electric, some prop driven and some EDF. He liked to scratch build so he scaled up and scaled down the design to fit whatever he was looking to do at the time.

He was a builder first, and a pilot last. I was the pilot on our team and I have a lot of time on the Force One and Enforcer. I still have about five of the different versions he built, but have not flown them since he passed.

The trick with the reflex is you set the elevator flat to the trailing edge of the wing and then reflex the ailerons up so that the bottom of the trailing edge of the ailerons are even with the top of the trailing edge of the elevator.

I need to to buy some batteries and such to get them back in the air, but by this summer, I will be flying at least some of them again.

Good luck!
Do the relocated/additional fins make any difference in performance?
Old 03-18-2016, 10:28 AM
  #42  
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Yes, if you go too far. The EDF on the right has just tip plates and small sub fins underneath. I flew it once and it was directionally unstable. I got it down in one piece but it will need conventional Force One fins before it flys again.

Kirk, thanks for for posting the picture.
Old 03-20-2016, 05:24 AM
  #43  
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Mickydee,
Very nice fleet. I really like the delta wings in any design, however, not with a prop in the rear. After thirteen cuts on the top of my throwing hand, I have no desire to throw again, You, however, have solved that problem by going EDF. So with your help, I wan t to go in that direction. What is a above average size fan and motor combination? Where is the COG located? What is the angle of attack of the EDF? Any and all help is much appreciated
Old 03-20-2016, 08:00 AM
  #44  
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Hi Pete,
Mickydee may certainly have his own opinion but I will chime in by saying that while I suppose it is possible, the Force One is really more of a ROG model and wouldn't be suited for a hand launch. I've hand launched a 4 pound or heavier model but it's not something I would wish on anybody. Relevant to your question about the CoG, there are photo's in post number 26 above that show the COG as listed on the plans. Mickydee or JuanJulian can speak with more authority about what size to use but I will say that the fuselage definitely has room for a substantial battery pack and depending on how you mount your servos there is flexibility to adjust the COG by moving the battery pack around.
Old 03-20-2016, 09:24 PM
  #45  
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Hi,

We used Wemotec Midi Fans in all of our versions. The blue/white version has a 70 MM fan with an ARC motor. It flew on 4S but could take 5S with an ESC upgrade. The other two use 90 MM fans. The larger version has a Hacker B50 motor and if memory serves, it flew last on 8S. The smaller 90 MM
version on the left has a Astro a Flight 40/3 motor and has not flown.

I still have our most successful version (not pictured) which was a scaled down (10%) version of the Enforcer that was powered by an ARC motor on 6S and has air retracts. My day was in the process of modifying it to take a Jet Fan 90 MM fan when he got sick and lost interest.

I would recommend you look up Eflux RC for fan and motor combos. Gary, the owner, is very helpful, and can set you up with a motor and fan for whatever you need. I would recommend a Jetfan 80 MM fan on 6S for the Force One and a Jetfan 90 MM fan on 6-8S for the Enforcer.

CG's are set up per the plans. The fuselages are removeable hand have been modified in shape to provide more interior space.
Old 03-23-2016, 06:32 PM
  #46  
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Progressing slowly along. I got the hatch glassed.I used cling wrap to keep the glass from sticking to the rest of the plane.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:13 AM
  #47  
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Mickydee,
Thank you for all the information you posted. Much appreciated
Old 03-25-2016, 08:47 AM
  #48  
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Although I'm going with prop power on mine Mickydee's models make you think. When the Force One was designed most ducted fans were powered by fire breathing high nitro engines. With the advent of high capacity batteries and brushless motors it is a pretty straightforward modification to the Force One kit.
Old 03-26-2016, 03:28 AM
  #49  
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Also, there is a certain "cool" factor since it is more of a jet than airplane. You are right, Matt, at the time when this model was designed, there were no efficient EDF setups, now there are. This is a great hobby we are in and I am glad to be part of it.
Old 03-27-2016, 03:31 PM
  #50  
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I'm having a blast with this plane. Flies fast and it is very rugged. It has survived a lot of no so good landings with only scratches.

My plane has undergone the third edf setup.
First hayoe90 mm 7 blade fan. This are cheap and need experience for setting up or explodes. It exploded seting it up.

Second wemotec 90 mm edf 11 blades, het motor 36mm 1120kv. 3800 watts. To much for plane and the lipos that used were to small 2650mha 12s.

Third. Wemotec 90mm edf 5 blade, hobby king dr mad thrust motor 36mm 1700kv. 2100 watts. More than enough power. With this setup use 6s lipo 5300mha witj about 6 minute flight time.

All the above with hobby wing 120 hv esc opto.
Thrust angle is aprox 0 to - 1 degree.

Cheers

Juan

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