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SIG Somethin Extra Build - 2nd Plane

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SIG Somethin Extra Build - 2nd Plane

Old 12-08-2014, 09:38 AM
  #1  
BatteryBob
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Default SIG Somethin Extra Build - 2nd Plane

This is my first build season following my rookie flying season. I know I will be starting back on the trainer in Spring, but I need to have a 2nd plane in the hanger. After checking out many build threads and receiving great advice from club members, I'm going with the classic SSE.

As a kid, I have built my share of Carl Goldberg kits of the .049 variety on up to a Nobler. That was a long time ago. My re-entry kit was a PT-60. Also my first monokote experience. I also did a major overhaul to a Hobbistar 60 that I bought from a fellow club member, including a scratch wing build after a tree flew into my deadstick plane.

My real project is a Ziroli Dauntless in waiting, but the SIG SSE will help further sharpen my building skills before I tackle a large scale plane.

After doing some recon on the SSE (build threads and help from some of you that have posted in the past), here is my plan:

1. I want to go electric on this one. Plan to power with Hacker. I still need to figure out the mods for the battery tray.
2. Extend the tailfeathers based on a CAD file posted by low'n'slow. Just need to get it printed out to scale.
3. Use Sullivan rods, tail wheel and TnT landing gear for prop clearance. SackOHammers post suggest the Dubro is better tail wheel.
4. Some aesthetics: sheet the TD and make a fiber glass cowl. I think we all agree yel914 has a great example.
5. Not sure where I plan to take some weight out. I've seen the stick versions of ailerons, etc. I may make of set of stock and modified and choose after checking the weight.

The thought is that I can grow into this plane as I transition out of low rates.

Stay tuned
Old 12-09-2014, 05:30 PM
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usc1990
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Subscribed and looking forward to following this. The SSE is on my list to build.
Old 12-10-2014, 05:03 AM
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Well, subscribed of course, and thanks for the compliment! That battery tray should be an easy conversion of the fuel hatch many slimmer folks have done. Finding a suitable place for the ESC may be the bigger issue. A mod to the FG cowl with a vent under the spinner may help cooling. Something like a P51 cowl might look good, IMHO.
Rick
Old 12-12-2014, 06:04 PM
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BatteryBob
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So the build is underway. I have my board set up. This my first SIG kit. So far, I like what I see.

I had read through the instructions but missed the part about having the servos on hand for pre-drilling the trays. I'd be interested in what others would use. I'm thinking that a Hitec 7245MG may be overkill, but I do plan to try 3D with the extended control surfaces.

In in terms of the wing panels, I am not sure I want to remove any weight. I'm not sure there is any significant weight to pull out. Also considering putting blind nuts on the wing tips, but the outside rib is balsa.

Hopefully, I can get some pictures up, of course, they won't be much different from other threads.

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Old 12-12-2014, 06:10 PM
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aymodeler
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I just finished the same build earlier this year (although I have not maiden her yet). I posted some of the build details on my blog: http://blog.alsrcsite.com/category/b...-projects/sse/

Here are a few pics of my battery tray conversion. I replaced the tank floor with a new part cut from lite ply. I reinforced the this from underneath with a couple of 1/8 x 1/4 basswood strips. I don't have picture of the hatch, but it was basically built using the same technique as the stock canopy hatch. I use rare earth magnets to hold both in place.

I ended up mounting the ESC under the tank floor (with some holes in the firewall to direct cooling air).

Looking forward to your build.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:49 PM
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Aymodeler - thanks for the post! I had been to your blog, but missed the detail on the battery tray. Very much appreciated.

I've made a little progress. I opted to build one wing panel at a time. I'm just wrapping up sheeting on the top side.

For less experienced builders like myself, I would second the recommendation to use a right angle triangle and continually check your ribs. If you are pinning to a board like me, make sure the ribs are weighted down on the board. I noticed that the panel wanted to lift on a corner. That would be a problem.

My Great Planes PT60 had a pre-cut spar web,which made things easy. For the SSE, you will be cutting your own pieces and I found myself being a little OCD on the cutting to keep the ribs true as things can compound quickly.

Other than that, it a pretty easy wing panel with accurate parts. I saw a post where someone had fit problems at the wing/fuselage joint. I am really watching the inboard rib to make sure it stays straight. I'll find out if I was successful later in the build.

here are some pics

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Old 12-16-2014, 05:07 AM
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I highly recommend a magnetic build board system if you plan on building many more planes. It makes the whole process so simple. Looks like you're having fun so far.
Rick
Old 12-17-2014, 07:36 PM
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BatteryBob
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Rick - I agree. I did some checking but have not found anyone local to get a first hand view. I heard Great Planes had sold a mag board at one time, but no longer. Maybe for my next build. Is your board large enough for a Ziroli kit?

For anyone interested in a list of build info, check out http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2280159. There's some links for building boards.

I had a little issue on the second panel with a slight dog leg on the tip of the in-board ply rib. I had to get is straight and did not want to rely on the tension of the wing. I was afraid I'd just transfer the problem elsewhere in the wing.

One area that I (and maybe others new to building) struggle with is keeping the sheeting clean. And by that I mean no excess glue in the joints and perfectly flat. What I have gathered from the experts is (1) sand joints before you glue the sheet to the wing (2) use large sanding bars when necessary and (3) be careful with CA as it does not sand like balsa. I try to use titebond whenever possible.

I also have the drawings from low'n'slow printed out for the tail feathers. From d-bledsoe's thread from '06, it appears the prints with the narrower stab/elevator are the correct version. Not sure if anyone out there ever made the wider version. This will be the next adventure when I finish the wing panels and ailerons.

Some more pics of the latest progress-
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Old 12-17-2014, 08:21 PM
  #9  
aymodeler
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Looks great!

Don't make the mistake I made and keep a light touch when sanding the wing. With the large bays on the SSE wing, the sheeting will deflect easily between the ribs when sanding. Even with a long bar, you might find that you sand too thin over the ribs while trying to clean up a spot in the middle. I ended up having to re-sheet the last two bays on one wing of my SSE build because of that.
Old 12-18-2014, 05:03 AM
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My current board is only about 2' x 4', large enough for most things I do, but I'll eventually make a larger board. I have a pic of my magnetic fixtures in my gallery. They're not hard to make if you have all the shop tools, which I have. Your plane is shaping up nicely. It's a pretty fun, simple build. Got a color scheme in mid yet?
Rick
Old 12-20-2014, 11:33 AM
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I have both wing panel completed. Just going over glue joints, dabbing water on small dings, etc.

(In reverse order)
Pic 1 is the start of the second panel. Even easier the second time around.
Pic 2 adding the shear web. Really watching the alignment.
Pic 3 who would have thought a piece of Tupperware would provide the right arc. My template of arcs didn't go up to that size and I didn't have my handy compass.
Pic 4 it really pays to go slow, taking off slivers of balsa to get the right fit. Also be sure to sand the joint now.
Pic 5 both tubes inserted. Makes sure you hold onto those 2 sheets of paper they place in the instruction manual. Those will be rolled into servos lead tubes.









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Last edited by BatteryBob; 12-20-2014 at 04:16 PM.
Old 12-20-2014, 12:01 PM
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A couple of additional pics for beginners like me. Not sure these are lining up in the right order.

Pic 1 Getting the panel aligned and weighted down before gluing in the leading edge of the forward wing sheeting. Even with CA+, this is tricky for me. I want to avoid sanding later so I really try hard to keep top surfaces matched between the sheet and the pre-shaped leading edge. You can use ca+ or titebond on the tops of the ribs but I like to use ca to get an immediate lock of the trailing edge of the sheet.

Pic 2 A small hand plane works well for me to shape the trailing edge to match the taper of the ribs. I use my straight edge to check the rib/trailing edge transition. I feel this works better than to rely solely on a sanding bar.

Pic 3. The last pic shows and end view of the wing panel. Note the tapered TE.





For those that are interested in putting their SSE on a major weight reduction, I suggest you check out these threads (there are many to choose from):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=380955&page=2
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494750

Some folks have reduced the weight to below 60 oz. I did not opt to replace ply ribs with balsa or core any ribs out. You'll see one example where the outside balsa rib was left off and also a section of the shear web omitted. You will also find the plans for the extended tail control surfaces. I'll be going to the LHS to pick up some balsa for the scratch build of these parts. I finally got the right (version 2) of the SSE tail group printed out.

Ailerons are next
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Last edited by BatteryBob; 12-22-2014 at 10:45 PM. Reason: typo
Old 12-20-2014, 05:40 PM
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Old 12-20-2014, 09:36 PM
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Battery Bob, Great handle!

Subscribed!
Old 12-22-2014, 07:45 PM
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Welcome guys!

My next post will really show my lack of building experience. So, as I stated in my first post, I planned to experiment with some of the kit bashing posts that I found in my research. With the wings complete and basically stock, I planned to get some weight out by building the stick version of the ailerons. I revisited GrrAmps and D-bledsoe pics.

I started by building the stock ailerons first. There's not much to say, four parts, goes together like a jigsaw puzzle. If there's a key to it, it's making sure the parts stay flat.



Next came the stick version. Pretty straightforward. I made sure the balsa was strong but ended up being very similar to the parts SIG provided for the stock version. The density/weights were comparable based on some simple tests I ran.



The last photo above shows the two versions side by side. I tried to build in some strength on the corners. Also felt that using a .25" leading edge was kind of thin. So which design is heavier? Well, based on my scale, the stick version came in at .7 oz and the stock at .6. Being that my scale is only good to the nearest 1/10th, I assume there is some rounding and possibly the two designs are closer than 1 oz apart. But either way, it's not worth it to me to use the stick version.

Unless, of course, someone can explain my mistake. Help is always welcomed.

...coming next, the extended control surface of the tail group. Almost finished. My goal is to start the fuselage after Xmas. That is where all the fun will begin. I also need to get a color scheme going. I want something that besides being visible and cool, I want it to be unique and teach me something new about covering.
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:06 AM
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First off, your stick version looks great, so nice job on the scratch construction! The effort was worthwhile if for no other reason than to exercise construction skills.

The fact that you have less total volume of wood in your design vs the stock design but ended up with roughly the same weight leads me to suspect that your wood is a bit heavier. You can test this out by taking some scraps from the kit wood (around where the aileron parts were cut from) and the same volume from scrap from the wood you used to build your aileron and seeing which is heavier. Balsa density has a lot of variability, so if you are doing construction mods to save weight, you need to be very selective of the wood you are using. In fact, you can often get a saving over stock kit weight by cutting new parts to the same profile using select contest grade balsa.

I thought about doing the same mod on my build, but to be honest, was too lazy (esp since I was not building for weight savings).
Old 12-23-2014, 10:23 AM
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When buying wood you will find a lot of different weights. I buy in bulk from places like National Balsa and there web site has the different grades. When I need a sheet or two or some sticks I usually go to Michale's craft store or Hobby People. The problem with them is the grade of the wood, usually heavy. If your going to do mods to a build it's a good idea to buy some contest grade wood just to keep in stock.
My last order was just blocks that I cut to size as needed but I got had by the wood supplier, Lone Star, and the wood was so soft and light it was like building with sponge. Sometimes there is such a thing as too light.
Nice build thread!!! This is also a fantastic little plane!!
Old 12-24-2014, 02:53 PM
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Contest balsa, one more thing I have heard about recently, but know very little. I have seen some very spongy stuff at the LHS but I veered away because I was worried about strength. I usually check how easily the balsa bends to give me a feel for strength. My guess is this is more important in leading/trailing edges etc vs sheeting.

The tail group has been roughly assembled. The only trick for me was estimating the gap required to allow the elevator to hinge properly.

I had both print versions on hand and they are shown below, curteousy of low'n'slow:

The drawing on the right is correct

Here I started to piece things together:



The stab/elevator was a similar build:



Now it's time to do a little filling in, sanding, hinging, etc. But after the holidays.

Merry Christmas everyone!
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Last edited by BatteryBob; 12-26-2014 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Typo
Old 12-25-2014, 09:17 AM
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Most places like hobby shops and craft stores stock Mid West balsa, it's stiff and heavy. Very stiff and heavy. I have bought sticks for trailing edges and my GP slot cutter wouldn't go through it. They also have tapered stock for ailerons and elevators and we bought that hard balsa just because of that. Some of the kits and ARFs used very light weight wood for these and they would flex so we often changed them out for the Mid West wood. Wood dealers usually stock 4 different grades of wood but I found just stocking the contest grade works well for me.
It's been a long time sense I built the SSE and I didn't recall it as having a counter weighted rudder, it looks good and that rudder looks very strong, good design!!
Old 12-26-2014, 08:07 PM
  #20  
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Quick update and question.

First, the update. I'm wrapping up the wing panels by gluing the end caps in place. Everything aligned well.



I applied just a small amount of glue around each of the tube exits to stiffen this up. I plan to avoid any sanding of the in board rib because I figure it's about as flat as it's going to be. I used blue painting tape to protect the sheeting for the sanding needed to blend the to surface of the ribs.

The tail surfaces are also almost finished. Mainly checking the strength of all the glue joints and applying a little balsa filler. In one joint, rather than loading up filler, I glued a small piece of balsa on top and sanded until the joint was perfectly flush. Hinges are not temporarily in place.



Now, my question. Before I start the fuselage, do you guys recommend I have the motor on hand? I was thinking I could shift the motor based on the final weigh in through the motor mount. What is the latest that others are using (electric set ups that is)? 4 or 5S? I saw back in a thread where someone had moved the firewall forward to compensate for weight in the tail. Any thoughts on this? I know some of you are in process of building an electric conversion or have done this recently.

Just curious what the very latest thinking is based on current battery/motor capability. Thanks.
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Old 12-27-2014, 06:05 AM
  #21  
aymodeler
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I prefer to have the motor in hand before starting fuselage assembly. It's easier to accurately drill holes for the motor mounts with firewall on the bench than it is assembled into the fuselage. My preferred mounting method is to use thick-walled aluminum tubing to make custom length standoffs. This gives a very light, but rigid mounting and it is easy to customize to any length needed. Note in the picture below that I needed to plug the pre-cut slots in the firewall with some hardwood dowel in order to drill the mounting holes and install t-nuts where I needed them. I also added cut some additional holes through the firewall to help ensure adequate cooling air flow through to the battery and ESC.

I ended up with a Scorpion S 4020-10 motor paired to a 5S 4000 mah battery. I was originally thinking 6S, but convinced myself that the battery would be just too heavy. I struggled quite a bit to find a combination for this plane, the problem being that there is not a lot of ground clearance with the stock landing gear, so you're limited on how big a prop you can swing. I ended up with the taller TnT landing gear (which you mentioned in your first post), and selected a motor with a fairly high Kv for a plane of this overall size and weight. I have couple of different prop sizes and will need to do some testing to see what will work best (note, I have not maidened this bird yet).

Your idea of moving the motor to optimize balance is good, but I do not expect you will have too much trouble with balance. I set my motor with prop plane at the stock location and was able to dial in balance just by shifting the battery pack around a bit. Unless your mods to the tail surfaces add a lot of tail weight, you should not need to move the firewall forward (in fact, if I push the battery all the way forward, she comes in a bit nose heavy). The Scorpion 4020 is a fairly heavy motor though, so if you end up with something lighter, you may have to tweak tings a bit more.


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Old 12-30-2014, 11:15 PM
  #22  
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I've been receiving some great advice. Aymodeler - I like the mods for the battery tray and the lower hatch to get at the ESC. I think I will need to borrow these for future use.

I'm in the process of getting my motor. Our local/club expert steered me toward motocalc, which I knew nothing about. Only showed me how much I have to learn. I finally went with a Hacker A40-10L V2. At 5S, I can stay at a 14x7 prop and there should be plenty more power than I will know what to do with. Should have that and a X-70 in a couple of days.

Here is the output from motocalc



Meanwhile, I'm running out of odds and ends on the wings and tail group. I attached the fiberglass to the control horn mounts. Kind of had a mess until I figured out that spraying 3M 77 on the strips first made it easy to cut without falling apart. So, start with a longer strip, spray, then cut into smaller pieces while it's only slightly tacky (not wet or gooey).

I also went ahead and put in the hard points for the tail supports. I know some folks have put carbon reinforcement just in front of the trailing edge of the stab/fin. I didn't go this way. You will notice that if you work off of low'n'slow's print, you will need to add some material in the place where the dowel (hard point) goes.

Some pics in no particular order-

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Last edited by BatteryBob; 12-31-2014 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Pics were missing
Old 12-31-2014, 09:14 AM
  #23  
aymodeler
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Hacker makes great motors. You won't be disappointed with the quality.

Have you checked ground clearance with a 14" prop? I seem to recall that even with the taller TnT gear not being able to go over 13" in diameter.

As an alternative to MotorCalc, there is also e-calc: http://www.ecalc.ch/motorcalc.php This is an on-line motor performance calculate that I find very easy and convenient to use. There is a $6.00/yr fee, which seems quite reasonable to me.

Al
Old 12-31-2014, 09:16 AM
  #24  
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p.s.; It seems like some of your attachments (photos) are not view-able. Something may have gone wrong when you uploaded (the RCU site seems to be a bit slower and more temperamental lately ).
Old 12-31-2014, 02:54 PM
  #25  
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Thanks. Tried the photos again. I'll let you know the outcome on the LG.

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