Where have all the builders gone
02-02-2015, 06:14 AM
#376
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gypsum,
CO
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Got this kit for a steal on 'ebay, the seller most not have realized it's true value. Struggled through the build, can't lie, I might have made some mistakes along the way. At the end of the day, I can proudly say I have my first balsa build under my belt. Yes, it was laser cut and i worked with a set of plans, but a guy's gotta start somewhere.
Is it just me or does everyone else have more than one build going on at one time. It seems like once I get to the covering part, I have to break out another set of plans and get started on another project...
02-02-2015, 06:31 AM
#378
4 builds currently under way, 1 is my daughters, 3 are mine. One has been going since 2011.
02-02-2015, 07:01 AM
#379
There are too many factors to list, but the bottom line is this: IF building was really as "enjoyable" as we all nostalgically like to think..then more guys would be doing it - and the RC model/kit business would still be thriving, providing us all with what we clamor for! The FACT is, many guys built because it was the only way to get an airplane in the air, and NOT because they were so in love with the process.
When the first ARFS were introduced (Lanier, SureFlight, Byron) they would have been soundly rejected if what I am saying was incorrect.
A secondary reason guys ARF instead of building is that it allows them to put many of their favorite aircraft in the air while also pursuing other things in life; other hobbies, family interests, job, home projects, etc.
Given the choice between months devoted to one single endeavor (a model) and being able to also do many of the other things we like to do, most of us will choose the latter.
When the first ARFS were introduced (Lanier, SureFlight, Byron) they would have been soundly rejected if what I am saying was incorrect.
A secondary reason guys ARF instead of building is that it allows them to put many of their favorite aircraft in the air while also pursuing other things in life; other hobbies, family interests, job, home projects, etc.
Given the choice between months devoted to one single endeavor (a model) and being able to also do many of the other things we like to do, most of us will choose the latter.
02-02-2015, 07:25 AM
#380
Dems fightn words! If you have the talent to build, then it is very enjoyable. I actually spend more time building than flying as it is very relaxing to me and gets me out of the stress zone that work causes. If you dont have the talent, then I can see it not being enjoyable(Homer building the BBQ comes to mind). No one is saying ARF is bad, but many who build also have ARF so they have something to fly while they work on their creation. I have several of them myself, but I tend to fly (except my T-Clips) the planes I built more than the ARF. I got the SIG T-Clips 70 in August and put a Saito FG-11 on it and flew that plane the most towards the end of the season as its a fun flyer. It only comes as ARF, but if it were a kit, I would have built it instead.
02-02-2015, 07:29 AM
#381
Ha! Actually it is you who is trolling for a confrontation! Insinuating that I (or others) may not possess the talent for building? What a dumb thing to say. But you did get one thing right - many who love to build rarely fly... which is why they spend so much time building (and repairing)...
02-02-2015, 07:44 AM
#382
My Feedback: (11)
One of the issues I have is I dislike full balsa models, too fragile. I only fly fiberglass. Being into jets mostly, I need to build fiberglass molds. While possible, that is a serious undertaking and I will get there eventually. In the interim ARFs are the only option for me for fiberglass.
I'd rather glass foam than fly covered balsa anyday! I guess if I can glass the balsa that is ok too.
As Richard mentioned, I am into flying. All the old builders in my club marvel at my mediocre flying skills, because they just spend too much time building. They claim it must be the video games. Well not really, I GET to spend my time flying instead of building.
I really think building is a separate hobby from RC. While related, they can remain distinct and I fly without having to build per your definition. I know some who build and don't fly. I don't care.
Not so long ago we had to use slide rules (well not me). I use a calculator now but that doesn't mean I don't know how to add. I feel that is the same analogy, building is dead and we have better ways of doing things today. By all means get out your slide rules and build, I wont judge you. Can I just fly without you judging me?
Don't make assumption just because I fly ARFs. Nothing in this hobby is rocket science, and there is not a lot of stature involved in all of its aspects. In the end we are just grown men playing with toys who act like 12 year olds sometimes with who can spit the farthest.
I'd rather glass foam than fly covered balsa anyday! I guess if I can glass the balsa that is ok too.
As Richard mentioned, I am into flying. All the old builders in my club marvel at my mediocre flying skills, because they just spend too much time building. They claim it must be the video games. Well not really, I GET to spend my time flying instead of building.
I really think building is a separate hobby from RC. While related, they can remain distinct and I fly without having to build per your definition. I know some who build and don't fly. I don't care.
Not so long ago we had to use slide rules (well not me). I use a calculator now but that doesn't mean I don't know how to add. I feel that is the same analogy, building is dead and we have better ways of doing things today. By all means get out your slide rules and build, I wont judge you. Can I just fly without you judging me?
Don't make assumption just because I fly ARFs. Nothing in this hobby is rocket science, and there is not a lot of stature involved in all of its aspects. In the end we are just grown men playing with toys who act like 12 year olds sometimes with who can spit the farthest.
02-02-2015, 07:49 AM
#383
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ottumwa, IA
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Plans like Ziroli have such poor instructions and prints, one has to guess on how to build them. It would be helpful if designers such as Ziroli would provide more complete instructions. Maybe have a CD with instructions through the complete build. Today, it's difficult to find a builder who can give you any help. Forums like these take a lot of time and effort to get much information from. Thus, potential builders get discouraged and quit and go to ARFs. I know that builders tend to do things differently, but there has got to be some basic instructions. I know that flyers in my area have not considered building because of these reasons and lack of time.
02-02-2015, 08:14 AM
#384
Ha! Actually it is you who is trolling for a confrontation! Insinuating that I (or others) may not possess the talent for building? What a dumb thing to say. But you did get one thing right - many who love to build rarely fly... which is why they spend so much time building (and repairing)...
I have been in the hobby for over 40 years. And yes I WAS an ARF builder! It was profitable. Since I worked only 40 hours per week, I had a lot of time to work on my models. I built at least 3 per year in most cases, and since I was lucky not to crash (too many), I sold the models after about 6 month of use.
People at the field offered to buy them as soon as I maidened them. Honestly, it was quite profitable at the time. Yes I ended building the same kit more than once (Glodberg Cubs and Eagles for example).
So now I have a giant Sweet Stick Arf (electrified after using a G26 for a while), a Curtiss Hawk bipe ARF (the big one, gasser, our of production from Great Planes), and a 1/4 scale RV4 (electric).
After hundreds of flights, I lost a 40 size electric Telemaster ARF I boght that one as soon as they came out. Great model.
Also fly a 1/4 scale cub (balsa usa, I built this one over 20 years ago), finishing a Low Sweet Stick (from a Midwest kit), and a Balsa USA DVIII.
So, to imply that I (or many of my colleagues) fly ARF because we do not know how to build is just plain moronic. Time is scars now, since I own my own company for over a decade, plus have 4 grandsons, I travel as much as I can, and my other hobby is photography.
If you do not know how to build, trust me, it is not brain science, and those that are so proud to being able to build an airplane, well, if that is your biggest accomplishment in life: big deal.
Anybody can build. I got my in-law (full size private pilot) into the hobby about 4 years ago. He is working now on a Wendelll Hostetler 30% Decathlon. Again, this is not brain surgery. This is a great hobby and if you are not having fun, you are not doing it right.
And somebody really thinks everybody has to participate in this hobby the way you do. Well, this person is an ignorant so full of himself he cannot understand why the rest of the world does not share his interests. To those people one can only say: gow up, and get real.
Gerry
02-02-2015, 08:23 AM
#385
Plans like Ziroli have such poor instructions and prints, one has to guess on how to build them. It would be helpful if designers such as Ziroli would provide more complete instructions. Maybe have a CD with instructions through the complete build. Today, it's difficult to find a builder who can give you any help. Forums like these take a lot of time and effort to get much information from. Thus, potential builders get discouraged and quit and go to ARFs. I know that builders tend to do things differently, but there has got to be some basic instructions. I know that flyers in my area have not considered building because of these reasons and lack of time.
If you visit a site that deals with scale models, you can see Ziloli models built, discussed with pictures, that will answer all the questions you might have, and also those you did not have too! The internet can actually be your friend in any hobby:-)
Gerry
PS: As far as the time needed to build one of these projects. Yes, there is a time commitment neeed. No doubt.
02-02-2015, 08:46 AM
#386
My Feedback: (12)
Here are some photos of a project I have been working on since late September. It is a 1/3 scale Taylorcraft. It is by far the most ambitious project I ever ever attempted. It is built from plans using a short kit from JTEC Radiowave. No instructions, just a lot of help and guidance from others who have built it. 10 foot wingspan, DA100 for power.
Envious
02-02-2015, 10:15 AM
#392
This one is really clueless.... Never heard of RTF? (which I will not define). But the author can google it. If I would have some time to waste I would organize a drive to see if we can get this person a clue...
Also, in his abject ignorance, to define an ARF as "A foam model all it needs is a lipo" is a deeply ignorant statement too. No point pointing out the obvious to this ignoramus.
No wonder this place is losing members...
Gerry
PS: this is in response to these statements (below)
2005:
Kit: A Covered model, needs electronics.
Arf: A prebuilt model, all covered. Motor and everything installed.
2015:
Kit: A foam model that requires installing lipo and RX
Arf: A foam model all it needs is a lipo
Also, in his abject ignorance, to define an ARF as "A foam model all it needs is a lipo" is a deeply ignorant statement too. No point pointing out the obvious to this ignoramus.
No wonder this place is losing members...
Gerry
PS: this is in response to these statements (below)
2005:
Kit: A Covered model, needs electronics.
Arf: A prebuilt model, all covered. Motor and everything installed.
2015:
Kit: A foam model that requires installing lipo and RX
Arf: A foam model all it needs is a lipo
02-02-2015, 10:21 AM
#393
One of the issues I have is I dislike full balsa models, too fragile. I only fly fiberglass. Being into jets mostly, I need to build fiberglass molds. While possible, that is a serious undertaking and I will get there eventually. In the interim ARFs are the only option for me for fiberglass.
I'd rather glass foam than fly covered balsa anyday! I guess if I can glass the balsa that is ok too.
As Richard mentioned, I am into flying. All the old builders in my club marvel at my mediocre flying skills, because they just spend too much time building. They claim it must be the video games. Well not really, I GET to spend my time flying instead of building.
I really think building is a separate hobby from RC. While related, they can remain distinct and I fly without having to build per your definition. I know some who build and don't fly. I don't care.
Not so long ago we had to use slide rules (well not me). I use a calculator now but that doesn't mean I don't know how to add. I feel that is the same analogy, building is dead and we have better ways of doing things today. By all means get out your slide rules and build, I wont judge you. Can I just fly without you judging me?
Don't make assumption just because I fly ARFs. Nothing in this hobby is rocket science, and there is not a lot of stature involved in all of its aspects. In the end we are just grown men playing with toys who act like 12 year olds sometimes with who can spit the farthest.
I'd rather glass foam than fly covered balsa anyday! I guess if I can glass the balsa that is ok too.
As Richard mentioned, I am into flying. All the old builders in my club marvel at my mediocre flying skills, because they just spend too much time building. They claim it must be the video games. Well not really, I GET to spend my time flying instead of building.
I really think building is a separate hobby from RC. While related, they can remain distinct and I fly without having to build per your definition. I know some who build and don't fly. I don't care.
Not so long ago we had to use slide rules (well not me). I use a calculator now but that doesn't mean I don't know how to add. I feel that is the same analogy, building is dead and we have better ways of doing things today. By all means get out your slide rules and build, I wont judge you. Can I just fly without you judging me?
Don't make assumption just because I fly ARFs. Nothing in this hobby is rocket science, and there is not a lot of stature involved in all of its aspects. In the end we are just grown men playing with toys who act like 12 year olds sometimes with who can spit the farthest.
02-02-2015, 11:50 AM
#394
Senior Member
Geez, from a relatively inocuous question (the title of the thread), the inevitable pissing contest about who prefers what happened. Reminds me of "Which oil is the best for gassers" pissing contests of the past. There's been so many of them, it became absurd.
The way I see it, ARFies have come a long way so now there is room for both, ARFies and Builds. What's wrong with that? We the modelers benefit. There was a time when Howard Johnson's only had 1 flavor. Besides, if you had the knowledge to do custom work, an ARFie is fair game.
The way I see it, ARFies have come a long way so now there is room for both, ARFies and Builds. What's wrong with that? We the modelers benefit. There was a time when Howard Johnson's only had 1 flavor. Besides, if you had the knowledge to do custom work, an ARFie is fair game.
02-02-2015, 11:56 AM
#395
HA hit a nerve. Many people who buy RTF/ARF dont have the talent to build and SAY SO THEMSELVES! 
talent/skill. I know many dont have the time, nor the place to build like some of us do. Others dont know one end of a hobby knife from the other and say so. ARF are perfect for them.
Those who can, do
Those who can't, fly ARF
talent/skill. I know many dont have the time, nor the place to build like some of us do. Others dont know one end of a hobby knife from the other and say so. ARF are perfect for them. Those who can, do
Those who can't, fly ARF
02-02-2015, 11:59 AM
#396
Geez, from a relatively inocuous question (the title of the thread), the inevitable pissing contest about who prefers what happened. Reminds me of "Which oil is the best for gassers" pissing contests of the past. There's been so many of them, it became absurd.
The way I see it, ARFies have come a long way so now there is room for both, ARFies and Builds. What's wrong with that? We the modelers benefit. There was a time when Howard Johnson's only had 1 flavor. Besides, if you had the knowledge to do custom work, an ARFie is fair game.
The way I see it, ARFies have come a long way so now there is room for both, ARFies and Builds. What's wrong with that? We the modelers benefit. There was a time when Howard Johnson's only had 1 flavor. Besides, if you had the knowledge to do custom work, an ARFie is fair game.
Gerry
02-02-2015, 12:09 PM
#398
SO who's the troll now? Jealous because I can take a block of wood and make it fly? Or do you just get off on calling people you don't know stupid and morons?
For the record, my post was tongue in cheek in response to anothers post saying building is not enjoyable. You will find plenty of us who can build from scratch AND fly very well. You will also see I dont bash ARF. I have a few myself, up to a 33% CARF Extra 330 with a DA 100 in it. I prefer to build, but my builds are starting to take a lot longer because I am doing a lot more than just taking a box of sticks and making the plane per the plans. My favorite flying plane happens to be a SIG T-Clips 70 which just happens to be an ARF. It took the place of my first favorite, a SIG LT-40 that I built. I still enjoy flying the LT-40 when I want to do things a trainer isn't supposed to do, but the T-Clips is a joy to fly and can stay up for an hour on a tank.
For the record, my post was tongue in cheek in response to anothers post saying building is not enjoyable. You will find plenty of us who can build from scratch AND fly very well. You will also see I dont bash ARF. I have a few myself, up to a 33% CARF Extra 330 with a DA 100 in it. I prefer to build, but my builds are starting to take a lot longer because I am doing a lot more than just taking a box of sticks and making the plane per the plans. My favorite flying plane happens to be a SIG T-Clips 70 which just happens to be an ARF. It took the place of my first favorite, a SIG LT-40 that I built. I still enjoy flying the LT-40 when I want to do things a trainer isn't supposed to do, but the T-Clips is a joy to fly and can stay up for an hour on a tank.
02-02-2015, 12:35 PM
#400
"Stupid a quote as they come" referring th is "piece":
"Those who can, do
Those who can't, fly ARF[/QUOTE]"
Gerry
