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First build Sig LT-40

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First build Sig LT-40

Old 08-01-2020, 05:05 AM
  #26  
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There are several things that go into the choice of prop:
1) aircraft size and weight
2) available clearance between the motor shaft and the ground
3) speed range you are looking for
4) load on the motor/engine
Of these, the ground clearance and motor load are where I would look first. The reasons for this are:
1) Too long of prop can damage the plane/motor due to the increased chance of hitting the ground. I just checked out the specs of the recommended .46 sized OS engine and found OS recommends one of the following:
  • 10.5x6
  • 11X6-8
  • 12X6-7
  • Break in with a 10X6
If you were to measure between the motor shaft and ground and then subtract an inch(more if you're flying from a field with taller grass on the runway) you can figure out your largest size by taking the result and doubling it. With a tail dragger set up, you need to do this with the plane sitting level, not tail down.
2) Props have aerodynamic drag proportional to the length and pitch of the blades. Too much of either will overload/overheat the motor, ESC or batteries. Too little of either will make it hard to get your plane to fly due to lack of thrust.
This is where the size/weight and speed come into play. A larger/heavier plane will need more thrust to get it to fly than a lighter one. That means either a longer prop or one with a higher pitch to get the required thrust if you build a heavy plane. This could require a bigger motor, an ESC that can handle more amperage and/or a battery pack that can put out more power. To go bigger on these means more weight and more power needed, I'm sure you can see where this is going
The speed range you prefer should be the least of your concerns at this point. Unless you've flown before, a faster speed range is not a good thing. You only need enough speed to get the plane to fly and be easily controllable at around half throttle, generally speaking of course
I'm sure others will have more or different input to this as well
Old 08-01-2020, 06:13 AM
  #27  
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The nice thing about electric power is the flexibility it provides. You can't over rev an electric and you don't need to select a prop that gets the rpm into the power band. Because of this it opens the door to a much larger selection of prop sizes. The only real constraints is prop clearance like Hydro mentions and amp draw. When I looked up the specs on the Power 46 motor I was surprised that it will deliver over 1,000 watts. For spirited performance we use a scale of around 150 watts per pound. So a 6lb Kadet at 900 watts would perform quite well, perhaps a bit too well as a trainer. This is where the flexibility comes into play, by running a 4 cell pack and an APC 13x6.5 E prop you are able to dial down the power output to something around 650-700 watts which is more appropriate for a 6lb trainer. As you gain skills you could then switch out to a 5 cell pack and have a boost in power but it will increase the amp draw. So why not just go with the higher power package from the get go and just throttle back? It is certainly an option however the ESC's are most efficient the closer to full output you run them. A good example of this is my own electric airplane. I originally started with a 20.5x13.5 prop. The motor and ESC combination had no issues delivering 3,300 watts at full throttle but I found myself flying the airplane too fast. I switched to a 20x12 and the power output dropped down to 2,800 watts. I had to redo my throttle curve so that at half stick I have roughly 75% power output ( it just feels weird to me to be past half stick at cruise speed ) but the end result is I now fly the airplane at a slower pace and the increase in efficiency has me going from 3,800ma consumed per flight down to 3,000.
Old 08-01-2020, 06:49 AM
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1000 watts is a lot of power, especially for a trainer. More to the point, figuring an 11.2 volt pack, that's 89.29 amps. When you're dealing with that kind of amperage, you need to be using some fairly beefy wires or you will watch your new plane go down in flames.
That said, I have to agree with the 650 to 700 watts. That will drop your amperage down to a more reasonable 62.5 at 700 watts and 58 amps at 650 watts. You still need to be running fairly heavy wires between the battery pack, ESC and motor, I'm going to guess between 10 and 12 guage as I'm not an expert on DC systems. That said, the wiring used in houses is normally single strand 12 and 14 guage. 12 guage is normally rated at 20 amps or 2400 watts while 14 guage is rated at 15 amps or 1800 watts, both AC. Here's where things get fun. AC power is only 71% of DC. Thus, if you're using 12 guage wires, it can only handle 1700 watts while a 14 guage can handle 1275. That would allow a maximum continuous 114 amps using 14 guage wires IN THEORY. I wouldn't ever push that kind of amperage through that size of wire, just too dangerous for me to accept it
GEE, isn't electricity fun?
Old 08-01-2020, 07:06 AM
  #29  
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Hydro, I run 12gauge on my 3,000 watt setup and the wires are kept as short as possible. My battery/ESC wires are 3" and ESC to motor are 7". Keep in mind that most of the flight is at around 800 watts and all components have airflow all around them. If I'm not mistaken most wire current ratings have more to do with the temp the insulation can withstand as opposed to the wire itself.
Old 08-01-2020, 07:32 AM
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Wire composition is also a factor. I don't know if you remember or not but, several years ago, some home builders decided to save money on electrical work in their new projects and used aluminum wires instead of copper. They didn't take into account that aluminum wasn't nearly as good of conductor as copper and, before all was said and done, several of the houses had burned down due to electrical failures. The sad part is that, even though the wires failed, the circuit breakers never tripped. The builders used the appropriate sized breakers for copper wires instead of using smaller breakers or larger wires. That is the very reason that the main power lines from the generators to the electronics bays on commercial jetliners use a spliced set up. A couple of feet on each end is copper. The ends are then spliced to aluminum wire of one or two sizes larger for the rest of the run to save weight but still be able to handle the electrical load.
You mentioned a couple of things that let you get away with 12 guage at 3000 watts:
1) You have cooling air flowing around the wires during the whole flight.
2) You're running 800 watts for most of the flight
3) You're using short wires
Cooling air definitely helps but its the other two that make the difference. 800 watts is less than half of the 1700 theoretical peak I mentioned above. The short wires make a big difference as well. Short wires mean less resistance, less resistance means less heat. If you were running a couple of feet of wire, you probably wouldn't get away with it but, as I said, I'm not a DC expert

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 08-01-2020 at 07:38 AM.
Old 08-01-2020, 07:37 AM
  #31  
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Nope, I think you are on target. Just don't underestimate the airflow. While it is only one peice to the puzzle, I have seen guys burn up their components because they didn't want a bunch of holes in their airplane. I'm getting ready for a practice session and will snap a few pics of my setup, may help the OP some as his Kadet project is a conversion and I'm not sure if the Sig instructions will include an electric conversion or not.
Old 08-01-2020, 07:48 AM
  #32  
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JayAreJr, see the can of worms you opened up by asking about a prop? FIVE FREAKING POSTS ON ELECTRIC DRIVE!!!!!!!!! I guess that's why I stick with nitro motors in my toys
Old 08-01-2020, 07:50 AM
  #33  
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Speaking of cooling, I recently acquired a short kit for a Sopwith Baby. The designer one Brian Downham, won the Scottish Scale Nationals with it back in the 60s. It is a very British design and if you read on you will know why.
One of the more interesting features is a cooling tunnel going from the firewall back and down to exit out the bottom of the fuselage. The tunnel is 1/32" plywood fuel proofed on the inside. I'm planning on using a Saito .82 to power her. For those of you unfamiliar with the Sopwith Baby it is a float plane with the floats. The design has a dolly with wheels for take off. The are NOT water proof and the landing is made in grass allowing the floats to glide over the grass. I may permanently attach the wheels to the floats and do away with the dolly.
Old 08-01-2020, 08:00 AM
  #34  
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Cooling air intake below the spinner, slotted spinner lets airflow get directly to the motor ( Gator R/C has low cost options for slotted spinners )

Battery/ESC tray. ESC gets direct air from intake and angled mount directs it up to batteries

Exit holes just behind the lower wing. The fuselage shape creates a low pressure area that helps draw warm air out of the fuselage.
Old 08-01-2020, 08:01 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by FlyerInOKC View Post
Speaking of cooling, I recently acquired a short kit for a Sopwith Baby. The designer one Brian Downham, won the Scottish Scale Nationals with it back in the 60s. It is a very British design and if you read on you will know why.
One of the more interesting features is a cooling tunnel going from the firewall back and down to exit out the bottom of the fuselage. The tunnel is 1/32" plywood fuel proofed on the inside. I'm planning on using a Saito .82 to power her. For those of you unfamiliar with the Sopwith Baby it is a float plane with the floats. The design has a dolly with wheels for take off. The are NOT water proof and the landing is made in grass allowing the floats to glide over the grass. I may permanently attach the wheels to the floats and do away with the dolly.
IIRC, the Baby was built for use with the aircraft carrier Argus. The planes were launched using the dolly, which stayed on the ship and was caught at the front of the flight deck. The planes were landed on the water (hence the floats) as the British hadn't figured out how to land on the ship, something that wouldn't happen until after WWI was over, again IIRC
As far as the wheels, have you considered enclosing a pair inside each float in tandem? That would preserve the look and still make it so it could roll. The only catch is the rear wheel would need to be at the back of the float so you could land it with a normal nose high flair if need be
Old 08-01-2020, 08:04 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post

Cooling air intake below the spinner, slotted spinner lets airflow get directly to the motor ( Gator R/C has low cost options for slotted spinners )

Battery/ESC tray. ESC gets direct air from intake and angled mount directs it up to batteries

Exit holes just behind the lower wing. The fuselage shape creates a low pressure area that helps draw warm air out of the fuselage.
Would I be correct in the assumption that the radio is in the box under the battery pack ?
Old 08-01-2020, 08:05 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
JayAreJr, see the can of worms you opened up by asking about a prop? FIVE FREAKING POSTS ON ELECTRIC DRIVE!!!!!!!!! I guess that's why I stick with nitro motors in my toys


LOL and we haven't mentioned ESC timing, start power, acceleration power or brake setting yet! Actually these are all non consequence to the OP as his system will be plug and play. Keep in mind Hydro that even glow engines have a learning curve. Most guys would not be able to figure out your CMB .90 engines without assistance.
Old 08-01-2020, 08:14 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Would I be correct in the assumption that the radio is in the box under the battery pack ?

The receiver is a bit farther in the fuselage on the right side of the picture. You can just make out the twin antenna.
Old 08-01-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
LOL and we haven't mentioned ESC timing, start power, acceleration power or brake setting yet! Actually these are all non consequence to the OP as his system will be plug and play. Keep in mind Hydro that even glow engines have a learning curve. Most guys would not be able to figure out your CMB .90 engines without assistance.
I know and, like with anything worth doing, I'M STILL LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!
Do we even want to get into squish bands, tank pressure, high and low speed needles, power bands and why you need a prop or flywheel just to keep it running?
Old 08-01-2020, 02:47 PM
  #40  
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Wow Thanks Hydro and Speedracer that is a lot information!
So , I think it would be good to let you know what I have and have plans for.
Today was a great day at the lhs. While picking up some epoxy I saw they had the eflite 46 in stock so I picked it up. Also they had some hitech 425's, however they only had 3, so I picked those up along with a 322.
What made the trip even better was, I actually met a guy from a flying club that is about 20 to 30 minutes from my home. He was able to let me know that they are still out during these times and they instructors. I let him know as I get closer to completing the build, I will give them a call !
My next purchase is the esc which will be the 60amp eflite.

I have had experience with the onyx brand of batteries for my rc cars, so I will be sticking with them. This is my battery of choice https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...P32004S30.html

So for props I will mainly be looking for torque and long flight time over high speed. I still have to do more reading on electrics before I purchase a battery, prop and maybe even the esc.

So I have gotten up to the point where I have the right wing the at the same point as the left wing.






Last edited by JayAreJr; 08-01-2020 at 02:50 PM.
Old 08-01-2020, 03:43 PM
  #41  
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I have also done the part of the tail feathers. I am awaiting until I have all major components together, to sand and slot for hinges.
Here are a few pics of the process.

I now get to start on the fuselage, stay tuned!


Setting up for stabilizer build.


Cutting a little long to be able to file down.

cutting a little long actually ended up the correct size.

Cutting long again to file down.

All glued together

Small mishap in gluing, even though i was using extra thick ca, it set before I could get it into place.

All pieces to the to fin cut extra long to fit as I go.


Everything glued together.
Old 08-01-2020, 05:35 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by JayAreJr View Post
Wow Thanks Hydro and Speedracer that is a lot information!
So , I think it would be good to let you know what I have and have plans for.
Today was a great day at the lhs. While picking up some epoxy I saw they had the eflite 46 in stock so I picked it up. Also they had some hitech 425's, however they only had 3, so I picked those up along with a 322.
What made the trip even better was, I actually met a guy from a flying club that is about 20 to 30 minutes from my home. He was able to let me know that they are still out during these times and they instructors. I let him know as I get closer to completing the build, I will give them a call !
My next purchase is the esc which will be the 60amp eflite.

I have had experience with the onyx brand of batteries for my rc cars, so I will be sticking with them. This is my battery of choice https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...P32004S30.html

So for props I will mainly be looking for torque and long flight time over high speed. I still have to do more reading on electrics before I purchase a battery, prop and maybe even the esc.

So I have gotten up to the point where I have the right wing the at the same point as the left wing.



And therein lies the problem in many cases, too much information. Most don't know enough about what there is to deal with in building and rigging an R/C to know what they don't know. Since you run cars already, that gives you an advantage over many of those that are trying to get into the hobby. I know this is jumping the gun a bit but one other thing you will need is a prop balancer that can also balance the spinner backplate. My first airplane, though properly built, almost shook itself apart due to an unbalanced prop and spinner. I know Top Flight had a magnetic balancer that works well, have one myself in fact, that can handle an 11" or slightly larger prop. I wouldn't worry about more than two blades to begin with as a three blade can be frustrating as heck to balance.
Getting back to the wings, IIRC, you said you were going to add ailerons. Make sure you have added a way to access the servos before you cover the wing. This is something many first time builders don't think about and end up ruining the covering while trying to add the hatch and supporting structure after the fact. Just a heads up
Old 08-01-2020, 07:38 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
IIRC, the Baby was built for use with the aircraft carrier Argus. The planes were launched using the dolly, which stayed on the ship and was caught at the front of the flight deck. The planes were landed on the water (hence the floats) as the British hadn't figured out how to land on the ship, something that wouldn't happen until after WWI was over, again IIRC
As far as the wheels, have you considered enclosing a pair inside each float in tandem? That would preserve the look and still make it so it could roll. The only catch is the rear wheel would need to be at the back of the float so you could land it with a normal nose high flair if need be
I hadn't considered a tandem wheel layout inside the floats but it does sound tempting. Thank you sir!
Old 08-02-2020, 04:50 AM
  #44  
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Hydro, Thanks again for all the useful information. I hadn't even thought of a prop balancer. I will add that to the list. Yes I do plan to add the dual aileron servos, however I am holding off until i get all the major components near completion to add them. Basically I have questions involving all those components, but don't even know how to accurately ask the question until I get close to actually installing the part.. So stay tuned everyone even more help will be needed going forward!

Speedracer, thats a good looking plane you have there, I would love to see more pics of it.

Also I should have added this at the beginning, but for anyone who has a lt40 any and all pics are welcome here, so please some when you have a chance.

Thanks again for all the help from members on this thread and site!
Old 08-02-2020, 05:16 AM
  #45  
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Jay, that airplane is a pattern design I started a little over 3 years ago. This is the first revision since the prototype was built. After flying the prototype for two years I decided a couple changes would benifit the design. Those changes were to reduce the rudder overall size but make it taller as well and I lowered the horizontal stabilizer position 3/4". I also revised my fiberglass layup as the prototype proved to be somewhat overkill. The end result is that the revised edition has zero roll couple with rudder and has less pitch couple with rudder application,


Ok back to the Kadet. I'm posting a link to a useful servo mounting article that illustrates an internally mounted servo and a picture of an external servo mount. I tend to prefer the external mount myself as it makes adjustments and maintenance easier but either way will get the job done.


https://www.modelairplanenews.com/ea...sitor_pref_pop






Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 08-02-2020 at 05:19 AM.
Old 08-02-2020, 06:32 AM
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Wow Speedracer, those planes are gorgeous! Even better that its your design. I would love to one day build a plane of my own design, but that is a long long way down the road. I downloaded a trial version autocad so I could trace the ribs of this lt40 into cad. I want to build another wing that has little dihedral and also has the front and rear of the wing sheeted with cap strips in the middle. Maybe even barn door ailerons and flaps. These are future goals, to help get me to designing my own. Although after I build an f4u, the only other one I am really interested in is a p51 reno racer with some small changes. I doubt I will ever be into 3d,or even true scale, but a good flying and good looking pattern planes sound pretty good right now.
I will check out the site you posted shortly. I am currently reading through this thread Everything you want to know about electric flight so I can learn more on the electrics work in a rc plane.

Thanks for sharing!
Old 08-02-2020, 12:07 PM
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Making a second wing is actually easy. Here are all the steps you will need to do:
1) Trace out a rib on to a couple of pieces of plywood or plastic, cut them out and sand to finished shape. These will be your patterns for the actual ribs
2) Sandwich the appropriate number of pieces of balsa in between the previously made patterns and rough cut the stack to the general shape, leaving them oversized for now
3) Sand everything down to the size and shape of the patterns. This will give you your wing's shape and should match the original factory cut parts
4) Cut out the spar slots and any other recesses for the structure and you're done. Obviously, if some of the ribs have additional cut outs(these being where wing joiners are located or where the spars are doubled), you will need to make these modifications after taking the stack apart. Alternately, you can make a second set of patterns with these modifications already made and make them in a separate stack
To built your second wing, including barn door ailerons, you follow the directions as before EXCEPT for the following changes:
1) Do not glue in in inner most rib until the the rest of the bottom structure is compete. Raise the wingtip to the desired height and, using a 90* square for alignment, install the center rib. This will give you the desired dihedral when the wing is complete
2) You will need to replace the sheer webs between the rear spars with thicker material at any location you plan on installing hinges. I would use the same material as the spars, laminating it to the upper and lower spar in the bays the ailerons will be. If you want the aileron to be larger(go deeper into the wing) you can move the spar forward by cutting new slots at the desired depth and install the spars at that location, only where the ailerons will be. Leave the rear spar in it's original location through the rest of the wing. You can use a thicker rib at the location of the inboard end of the aileron, if you wish, for additional strength if you move the spar. Since the original wing has strip ailerons, you probably won't need to move the spar, just giving you the option if you wish to do so.
3) When the wing bottom is completed, add another partial rib to both ends of the aileron, glued only to the trailing edge. Be sure to leave a gap between the aileron end ribs and the wing ribs as you will need room for the covering that will go on later. At this point, you can glue the strip that was originally the aileron to the rear of the wing, rather than install the hinges and torque rods used in the plans.
4) Cut the trailing edge of the wing and all ribs as close to the rear spar and wing ribs as possible to remove the ailerons. Sand the areas cut flush to the wing structure and install the top sheeting AFTER installing your aileron servos and wiring
5) Determine how you want the aileron leading edge to be shaped and shape as desired. Be sure you have enough material to support the hinges and control horns as you don't want them to pull out and cause the plane to crash
6) Add the top sheeting and sand ends flush. All that is left is to slot/drill the hinge locations, cover the wing and ailerons and install the ailerons and the wing is done. It's actually harder to explain it than it is to do it, if that makes sense

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 08-02-2020 at 12:12 PM.
Old 08-02-2020, 05:40 PM
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I just remembered something, over five hours after my last post. SIG DOES SELL WING KITS!!!! Now comes the problem I have with them, they are $60 plus shipping to order one. That being the case, would you rather spend $60+ and get most of the materials that you need to build another wing or would you rather just buy the materials from someplace else and try a plans build, since you already have the plans, instead?
Old 08-02-2020, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I just remembered something, over five hours after my last post. SIG DOES SELL WING KITS!!!! Now comes the problem I have with them, they are $60 plus shipping to order one. That being the case, would you rather spend $60+ and get most of the materials that you need to build another wing or would you rather just buy the materials from someplace else and try a plans build, since you already have the plans, instead?
Welcome to the wonderful world of building. Re: a wing kit, in this case the LT and similar planes you’re really only buying some precut wing ribs and a pile of sticks and sheeting. It really is fairly easy to scratch build it from the plans and you learn new skills in the process.
Old 08-02-2020, 07:42 PM
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I'm currently building a pair of Kadet Jrs from plans and, yes, that means cutting out everything since the kit has been removed from production. That is why I was able to give directions on how to build a new wing with barn door ailerons with such detail. That said, I would make a few changes to the construction and parts of the LT-40 wing but, at the same time, I wouldn't want to make it too confusing for a rookie so I stuck to the basics

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