2) It has no ailerons, so aerobatics are out of the question.

Absolutely spot-on post in all ways, Minnflyer. But I have to respectfully disagree with the above. A three channel model in the hands of a practiced flyer can do loops, barrel rolls, avalanches, inverted flight, stall-turns, fair snap rolls, and soggy spins. A single channel (rudder only) plane can do loops and rolls and more. One of the most fun sport aerobatic models I have ever owned was a Goldberg Jr. Falcon with Cox TeeDee 051 and 2 channel Kraft radio.
Kelvin

Your getting a lot of good advise. I learned to fly this year on a SPAD STIK and after I felt I had gained some skill I thought I was good enough to move up to the SIG S.E. On my 1st flight I had all the throws set at the lower settings. The moment that plane left the ground I couldn't wait to get it back on the ground in one piece. I was lucky my buddy was standing next to me and he took the Tx and landed the S.E. for me in one piece. We turned the throws down a lot and I was able to learn to fly the plane. The plane is fun to fly but it can be a handful sometimes. I really enjoy flying an old Falcon that I bought at our club swap meet recently. I didn't pay a lot for it and it flies great. Not paying a lot for it takes some of the pucker factor out flying. I bought the S.E. as and ARF and wanted to build my next plane so I bought the G.P. Pete "N" Poke It was not the easiest kit to build but I took my time and enjoyed the time I spent building it correctly. It turned out awesome. It's fun to fly on light wind days but because it has a large rudder it tends to weather vane on windy days. (that's when I fly the used Falcon) I am encouraged by the suggestions regarding the Four Star because I am getting that kit for Christmas. (Yeah, I peaked) I know now that I did things out of order. I should have gotten the Four Star as a second plan. The S.E. was lot for ME as MY second plane. I struggled to learn how to fly it and I have put it back together a few times. But if you must my friend go for it. The kit is only about 80 dollars. A wise friend once told me "A good education can be very expensive" Best of Luck To Friend

I think I just found out where I've been going wrong all this time. I've been trying to make it last, but I never specified a time frame. All I need is one kit too!

Uh oh, don't let my wife know I said that

Seriously though. Get a trainer. No amount of G2 flying or borrowed stick time on a friends model will make you ready for you to hit the skies on your own. You say it's only a 5 mile drive to get help with the things you may not be able to do on your own, but I'm betting you only find out what you cannot do after you've tried it on your own. So, you're going to need something that is easy to fly and will take some abuse. The folks here are just trying to help. Please listen to them and you will get a lot more enjoyment out of the hobby than if you run off and get something simply because it looks cool.

John

Someone else mentioned the BTE Venture .60. It's aerobatic, easy building and comes with everything you need except the glue and a couple misc items. It's only $150 with the fiberglass wheel pants. You haven't listened to anyone else and you went from 300 Extras to 3 channel park flyers. I know very little and I've been flying again for about a year. I just now got my first low wing plane.

You said you "knew how to assemble". Well, bolting on a stab is much different than lining one up and applying epoxy, centering a wing joint etc. Not to mention building a turtlle deck, creating a fillet, or making a straight-flat fuse.

If you're just starting out look [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJA29&P=0]HERE[/link] for a kit.

Look [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK974&P=0]HERE[/link] for an ARF.

Here is everything you need to know about a V-60. It's really a modified Four Star that several others mentioned.

[link=http://www.btemodels.com/venture.html]BTE Venture .60[/link]

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/The_Bruce_Tharpe_Venture_60/m_1162596/tm.htm]V-60 review[/link]

[link=http://www.venture60.com/]V-60 Fan Site[/link]

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Venture_60_Construction/m_1242455/tm.htm]V-60 Contstruction Info[/link]

Here are some pics to show you what the end result could be. Otherwise, imagine a pile of toothpicks and that WILL be your end result! Good Luck...

rik756

You put a lot of effort into your response. Good, useful information. I wonder if the Mudsurfer is listening. There has been no response from him in four days.

Tomcrump -

I feel like the last 4-5 posts have fallen on deaf ears. Either he isn't listening anymore at all or we're just not telling him what he wants to hear so he's not responding. I started out a little like Mud is, but after having someone put me on a buddy box with a profile bipe and it all but fell outta the air 3-4 times - I quickly backed off and bought a Superstar .40 (high wing, flat bottom, lots of dihedral etc).

Like I said in my post, After a years worth of flying I just built/am building my first [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Lanier_Stinger_%2560_Building_Questions/m_1312935/tm.htm]KIT[/link] and my first low wing plane. I might have waited a little longer than most, but I am confident that I should be able handle it now and thats what I have waited for...

Hopefully Mud will step back and listen too. I have to assume that if the guys at his field are talking to him at all they MUST have at least tried to tell him the same things we have. If not then they are doing him a horrible injustice.

Good Luck and Happy Flying! (or crashing if your first plane is an Extra kit soon to be Re-Kitted)
Rick

To KHLASH:

That's just the way to go. Good for you. Next plane a firebreathing extra 330 !!!!! WOW

I think MUD got scarred from having too many people around who were right and had a lot of good sound advice(not always what a young person wants to hear) Maybe this thread has become an all around good place for advice to all the beginning kit builders out there. We sure need to nurture more builders in this new world of BARFS !!! Good going guys.

This was one of the harder kits I've built (EAA Biplane) but it still warms my heart every time I fly it (12 years later!!)

rik756, My knees still knock after 13 yers of flying. The first few flights of any new bird really get my heart pumping. It takes me a while to learn the characteristics of any new plane.

Good luck with your Stinger.

I'm building a Holman focke Wulf at the moment. The learning curve is a steep one!!!

I hope Mudsurfer gets something from this thread. There is a lot of good information for newbies in here.

There's alot of very useful advice here. With almost 30yrs myself in the hobby Mudsurfer, I would recomend you heed it.

Some people say this is an expensive hobby.............true......very true....when they crash. but to keep costs to minumum steps are necessary to help prevent mishaps....and in this case misfortunes.
Some initial investment and time is needed to progress to levels of mild aerobatics, and higher performance aircraft.

I can tell you, as some of the other experienced people here will attest too.....if you don't follow what they are saying..........it will be unfortunately an expensive lesson, as it really only gets expensive when you start crashing them.

The costs of the kits and equipment is what it is, for initial investment(with some good experiences under your belt you can creatively bring even these down), but the cost of destroying that is double or more(time involved) when it comes to replacing them.

The RC community as a whole is tight, and we all want to see new people become successful, very much so......I just thought here I'd throw a few cents in.

So...........just keep reading the boards here....... keep using your RF sim program..... and go to your local club and make all sorts of new friends and you should do fine.
We all want you to succeed here....it's a wonderful experience when it is successful....for sure.

Well said dgrant....

Tomcrump,
even though I am very comfortable with my trainers, I am still yet to maiden a plane I had a Supertstar, Hobbistar, Avistar and another Superstar (sold the first one). I can do things that they weren't meant to do, but that first flight still scares me too! I'm positive I WILL NOT be the one to maiden my Stinger. Especially after all the time and investment to build the kit.


Rick

rik756

While I do not enjoy maiden flights, I have started to perform them myself. Some times the local hotshot isn't as careful with your aircraft as you would be. I've had good luck with my current test pilot, but I had a couple that crashed planes for me. I, for the most part, figure that I wouldn't have built it if I figured I couldn't fly it.

I have a good friend that coaches me through the initial flights. That way I can concentrate on keeping the plane in the air. He can do the thinking. He keeps me from flying too high, too far out etc., and reminds me to perform stall tests and the rest of the things you should do during the initial flights. I find this system works very well for me. It's saved a couple of planes, when something hasn't gone the way I expected.

There's nothing better than flying the first flight yourself- the trick is to practice takeoffs untils you are SMOOOOTH with NO jerky movements and let the plane lift off itself. This way the plane will fly when it is ready to and you can concentrate on keeping the wings level. It's the best, just practice some first.

This hobby is actually one of the cheaper ones. I get tired of non RC'ers who think it is expensive because they view them as toys. It is all relative. I compare the enjoyment (thousands of hours over the years) I've had compared to my friend with the sea-doo - and I haven't yet spent the $10,000 he's put into his "hobby"!!!!!!!!

Even crashing isn't that expensive. When you build it yourself you can usually fix it yourself. I haven't crashed one yet I couldn't fix.

I def. think you should go with a trainer. have patience! i have a completely scratchbuilt plane up in my room waiting for me to finish it up and go fly it. But I'm gonna wait and get a trainer for x-mas, then im going to build a spad. That way im a little more prepared. This way i dont lose My baby! Be patient buy a trainer.

Even if Mud won't listen I sure am so maybe at least I can learn a little something. As I said earlier, I am more than comfortable with a trainer now. Take off, landing, tail slides etc. The only thing I haven't done much of is inverted flight and thats mostly because with the dihedral it's more trouble than its worth. I did it a little with the Hobbistar, but that was mostly dropping parachute men out of a box taped to the top of the main wing.

I guess MY big question is do I really want to be the one to maiden my Stinger? I would be comfortable doing the maiden on almost any high wing plane now but this is my first flight with a mid/low wing. I've read that the Stinger is somewhat of a floater but it's also aerobatic and much more so than anything I fly regularly.

Is going from High to mid wing different enough that I would have problems? I've never flown a Stinger or even a mid/low wing for any real length of time. Do I dare try the maiden or let this be the next step with a test pilot ?

rik756

There is definately a differance in flying a trainer moving to a Stinger, I think in this case that you would want to use the services of a test pilot. Find some one that you trust, not the flashiest guy. Some one that will take the time to inspect your plane for it's airworthyness, even though you know it's fine. Don't be offended if he wants you to change something. Listen to what he says, and above all, don't be in a hurry. Getting a plane set up properly takes time. Time is cheaper than money.

The Stinger will fly well. It will take a different technique than your high wing trainer type models. Ask your test pilot about these differances. You can do it, but it's nice to know what to expect.

Good luck.

Tom,

Luckily for me the guy that helped me build it is also the one that has test flown my other planes. In this case I am sure he would offer if not almost insist on doing the maiden. I did most of the actual building, but in scrapping the ABS turtledeck and some other things I certainly needed help from someone with experience. He is also the one teaching me how to cover it. (he's been flying about 8 years) We have already started the wing and will probably start the fuse next week. We have also managed to become good friends so that helps allot... If you have any suggestions look [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1312935/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1312935]here[/link]


Hey MUD,
If you're still out there - No one here is trying to put you down or make it sound like you can't fly or build. But just like I am steadily learning after a whole year of it, there is allot to learn and it is progressive. Think back to when you learned to drive. Ideally it was some back road with not much traffic and in an automatic. You wouldn't want to learn with 6 speed stick on the LA freeway at rush hour. Thats what they are trying to explain here...

Rick

rik756

I too have a friend like yours that assists me with building and flying. Besides being a good pilot, that understands what an airplane is doing and why it's doing it, he is a skilled craftsman. He's built well over a hundred airplanes. One year he brought home a prize from Toldeo. It's like having a voice activated library.

This hobby is a continuous challenge. As such, it is very rewarding. There are many steps to be taken along the way. Each one improving your abilities.

I agree with you in hoping that the Mudsurfer doesn't feel like he was being attacked. We were just trying to save him a lot of grief. This forum is a great resource for the newbie and the expert, alike.

You guys are all giving great advise.If Mudsurfer don't listen well it's his owen fault.He fails to realize that most hobby shops are there to "!SELL A PRODUCT!!" Thats why they say FOR BEGGINERS(and no I'm not here to start a hobby shop bashing thread)I fly a Sig something Extra and the plane is loads of fun I'm limited in aerobatic flying but I can learn with it and plus there are couple flying in my club.So I get to ask "How do you do this or that?"I'll say there isn't anything that will teach what its like when you stand in the pilot station by your self.Then you may have 5 or 10 club members watching you and evaluate your flying.Or better worse to laugh and say nice landing when your palne hits the deck and its in 100 pieces. My 2cents,stefanP

Thats a good saying. I agree you wouldn't want to learn in rush hour with a 6 speed.



ICE

I think that some people won't take advice no matter where it comes from. For them, the only way to learn is the hard way. Let Mudsurfer buy what he wants. Maybe he'll come back after he turns his expensive aerobat into balsa sticks, but maybe not.

We've got a guy at the field who soloed roughly a month ago. Yesterday the wing of his trainer separated. It looked like he pulled too many g's. He was going full throttle towards the ground and pulled hard on the elevator. So now he is going to start flying his second and third planes which are an Edge 540 and a Funtana. I'm not sure which scares me the most. Don't know what engine he's got for the Edge, but I heard him talking about putting a 120 four stroke in the Funtana. The Funtana is a 40 size plane!

If you know of any good ways to help me tell this guy that he's got more plane than he can handle, please speak up. At some point, it isn't just about the guy crashing a plane, but about everybody's safety at the field when he's flying (or attempting to do so)

Thanks

Kerry

well you could really encourage him to repair the trainer or simply suggest that he try a big stick, worldstar or four star as a transitional. Better yet, buddy box him on one of his or one similar and let him find out for himself.... ?

Well, I think the trainer is pretty much history. [:@] It cratered pretty good. I don't think he throttled back even after he lost the wing half.

I'm only a beginner myself. I started flying in May. My second plane is a Venture 60. I have been very happy with this as a second plane. My third will be a Great Planes RV-4. I cratered my trainer as well, but knew that I wasn't capable of stepping into a 3D airplane as my second one. The RV-4 will use the .46 I had in the trainer.

I'd guess our instructors have probably suggested milder planes. Hopefully he will let someone buddy box him when he starts flying these new planes. But I have my doubts.


Kerry

There is an easy solution to this. The club officers approach him and state once and for all that he is not ready to fly such a model based on theirs and the instructors observations. If he tries to fly something that is obviously beyond his abilities, his membership is revoked and he's banned from the field until such time that he proves his abilities.

Harsh words will be said, but safety for the club as a whole must come before the desires of someone who doesn't know their own limitations.

John

John, What you say may be harsh, but you are right.

We had a guy in our club, that ruined four trainers!!! I live in a vacation area. This gentleman lives elsewhere. He'd show up at our field and talk about how he'd soloed. The man couldn't even fly the pattern. We put him on a buddy box, just to save us, and his plane. When I took my turn with him, I cut him no slack. If he was too high, I took over. If he was too close or too far out, I took over. He didn't say anything, but he hasn't been back. Last I heard, he had a P 38 and was building the large Top Flite P 51. (I won't get into his building skill?) Anyway, this guy WON'T be flying these planes at our field!!!

Sometimes ya gotta do, what ya gotta do.

I tell students to use the G2 simulator. It really helps get the control of the sticks straightened out. Makes those responces automatic. But it doesn't teach the entire story about how to fly.

It doesn't teach judgement - Being able to tell how high the model is, how fast it is going and how fast it is approching, how fast it will drop and how it will be effected by that wind you feel. It doesn't teach the proper landing approach and alignment. Cyberworld is not reality.

All that said I think it helps and I have seen young pilots spend very little time with an instructor as a result of their use of a simulator.