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Goldberg Extra 300

Old 08-01-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard
ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes
Okay. I've been thinking- which is inexcusable. I know.

After studying the parts and the plans, I can see the whole fuse is constructed of light ply. I'm thinking this is where the extra 2lbs are coming from in everyone's builds. I'm thinking about cutting out some of the ply and using balsa. I haven't weighed the ply turtle deck, but that ply is heavy! Why not use 1/16in balsa sheeting? Yes it is fragile, but this is a competition aircraft. I'm considering making balsa ply formers, and debating on using balsa fuse sides with doublers.

The ply in my kit is heavy.
??????????? I guess you could, I just never tried it or felt the extra weight was a problem, mater of fact i always thought it was a good thing. The turtle deck is very light 1.64 or 32 ply but I can't see why you couldn't build it with changing the wood the way you want.
I don't buy into the idea of building ultra light planes, if I did I could just buy an ARF of build the plane like an ARF with a few sticks and sheets held together by the covering. Then again I would be building a new plane every season or buying another ARF like the other guys I fly with do. Kit built planes are with us for decades for reasons, strength. And with strength comes weight. Ever wonder why this plane has such a good rep as a great flying plene? It fly's so stabel and smooth without getting pushed around in wind.
Just a thought. Like one of my old instructors once told me, it's your plane, you can do what you want to it!! Who knows, maybe it will fly better if you lighten it up??
Gene
Gene, I agree and I'll express it a different way based on what I know.

I'm not an aircraft designer. I'm not an engineer. It's about the design. The CG Extra is an exceptional design, even when it's heavy. Mine is heavy. I may have the heaviest CG Extra in the history of the kit. Mine flies majestically and it flies with brilliance.

Where does that leave this discussion? Weight. Cut weight, add power. But you still wouldn't have a pattern airplane. You'll have an Extra. Ilikebipes, I understand what you're saying. It's uncharted territory. Build it feather light, give it power. Who knows. I've wanted to build a light one, but not as light as your post suggests. It'd fly great, there's no doubt about that.

I wouldn't worry about the airframe tearing apart, it's not about a safety issue in my opinion.

I don't think building a light weight CG Extra light will do enough for you in competition to warrant the extra expense in changing out what you already have to build.

I could be wrong. I don't want to encourage you either way.

If two pounds were cut off mine I don't think it would fly much differently. Faster yes, differently I don't know.


Old 08-01-2009, 08:18 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I don't know either but if he builds one lighter I would like to know how it fly's, I like the GP Extra too and it comes out lighter. I just like the way the CG Extra fly's. An Extra is an Extra, except the Patty, I'm not all that happy with my Patty but that's and apple and an orange thing. If I scratch out a couple of the CG Extras they will also be lighter. You just never know until you build it. My CG kit is sort of a tank in the air but it sure makes me look good when I'm flying it.
Old 08-01-2009, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Wow. Well, um....

I am not a believer in the lighter is always better theory either. Especially in biplanes. My concern is power to weight ratio. My largest powerplant is my ST 90 at the moment. I had a YS fz 110 that I just sold-only because I desperately needed the money. That leaves me with the ST 90 so I'm hoping to find a way to have my cake and eat it too.

Also- I have obsessive-compulsive tendancies. So it helps that everyone is keeping me on track- helping me focus.

I'll stop it and just build the thing already. [sm=teeth_smile.gif]
Old 08-01-2009, 11:01 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Man do I ever have a Bipe for you!!!!!!!!!! I have been known to use a hole saw every now and then but for the most part it was on race planes or to get the CG set on a tail heavy plane. Maybe some of the other guys can tell you how it will fly with the ST 90, mine has never had anything in it smaller then a 1.20 four stroke and the others I have built for other people have all had the same or bigger. Last one I built used the YS 1.40 and I liked flying it better then my own plane. That's one I hated to give away.
I don't know if building lighter will or won't hurt the plane. If you feel the need go for it!!! I'll cheer you on.
Old 08-01-2009, 11:08 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Ilikebipes.
I needed a break from the build, so I took the time to weigh what I have so far.
Wing is complete with ailerons = 1.60 lbs
Tailfeathers completed = .40 lbs
Fiberglass cowl and pants = .60 lbs
Canopy = .50 lbs
Engine OS 91 2S, muffler, prop, spinner, and mounting hardware = 1.80 lbs
Fuse is framed up and glued right up to where the point where the firewall needs to be mounted. The fuse as it stands along with all the other formers sheeting, servo tray etc. placed on the scale = only 1.50 lbs. You don't have much weight to save in the fuse IMO. I would leave it alone, but you gotta do what you think is right.
This makes a total weight of 6.40 lbs. Things not accounted for are all the hardware, tank, radio equipment, landing gear, wheels, battery, and of course covering / paint.
It'll be interesting to see how much she comes out.
PS. my scale is dead nuts accurate to .05 lbs. My boys wrestle in school and they need an accurate scale.

How far are you on the build. Any pics?
Old 08-02-2009, 01:15 AM
  #331  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I haven't gotten any further than the tail feathers yet. I just laid down the plans for the wing and started to organize the wood I need. Tail feathers are pretty boring, that's why I haven't taken any pics yet. I guess I can. I'll post some tomorrow.

6.4lbs with everything bu the radio gear and servos. I can live with that. Between these things and the covering/paint, are you guestimating 7.5-8lbs? I could even live with 8-8.5lbs.

I haven't been this inspired by an airplane in years! It is too bad we have to lose such a good plane to "demand." But it is what it is.

Brian
Old 08-03-2009, 01:19 AM
  #332  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Ask and you will receive!

Just tail feathers. Pretty boring stuff really.

I just started on my wing, but I realized I don't have any more T-pins! With my board set up the way it is, I'll have to purchase more this weekend.

I'll take pics of the process.

I warned everyone it will be slow going. A little bit at a time. (Ihave to do the family juggling act!) But there will be progress.

Brian
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:22 PM
  #333  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

That looks good. You can cut some holes in the sheeting if you mark out the stringers. Don't forget the templates, I spotted that bottom brace and it reminded me.
I ended up buying a bunch of new T-pins at Michale's art and craft store. The hobby shop and fabric store thought they were gold plated or something.
If I can find some photos on one of my builds I did on a racer I will post them for you.
Gene
Old 08-03-2009, 01:49 PM
  #334  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I am ABSOLUTELY drawing templates. But I'm only drawing the parts that aren't outlined on the plans. Hope that's okay. Let me know.

Which brace were you referring to?

Brian
Old 08-03-2009, 04:00 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I found some photos of one of the racers I built, this one got just a little stupid after it was in the bones, truth is it was on hhe stupid side before I ever begun the build. I never really thought it would fly very well but the owner/pilot swears by it. Very little engine with a very big engine.
I make up templates for every part that isn't a stick, stringer or spar but anything shown in profiel on the plans can just be copied at Kinko's and cut out. I have the plans for some small pattern planes you may like to build. By small I mean 60 size.
Also a photo of the last CG Extra I built with a YS 1.40. The fellow holding it is the proud new owner. I got the kit by mistake at an auction sale and I built it and gave it to him as a gift, he came all the way here from Oregon to pick it up and do the maiden on the dry lake bed. This was the best flying CG plane I had built, a great combo and with bigger controls it would have been a pretty good 3-D plane too.
Gene
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:21 PM
  #336  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

The man in that picture is lucky to have a friend like you Gene.
Old 08-04-2009, 10:26 AM
  #337  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Hi Folks: Been flying my CG Extra for three years now. OS 91 2 stroke. Working on flat spins with my Extreme Flight electric Extra and getting so I can "sometimes"' get it right.

Just for kicks tried it with my CG. The plane flies great inverted, knife edges both ways without much elevator correction, but I can't do flat spins either upright or inverted. Anybody else been successful doing flat spins with this plane?
Old 08-04-2009, 11:53 AM
  #338  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I know there is a "prescription" to result in a flat spin. Honestly, I have found it doesn't always work with every airplane. For Example, I can enter a flat spin with a GP Stick by slowing it to a stall, kick in full rudder, full down/up elevator, and OPPOSITE aileron until stable then nuetralize aileron. (As soon as I start adding rudder I apply full throttle.) My Smith Mini plane worked the same way. (I Had A LOT of throw in my rudder and elevator to achieve this.)


Then there is my friends GS Extra. With that you don't apply opposite aileron to rudder, but the same direction.

Maybe it is a matter of finding the right combination. Keep trying, with the Carl Goldberg Extra you'll find it works somewhere there. I've seen it done.

Brian
Old 08-04-2009, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300


ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes

I know there is a ''prescription'' to result in a flat spin. Honestly, I have found it doesn't always work with every airplane. For Example, I can enter a flat spin with a GP Stick by slowing it to a stall, kick in full rudder, full down/up elevator, and OPPOSITE aileron until stable then nuetralize aileron. (As soon as I start adding rudder I apply full throttle.) My Smith Mini plane worked the same way. (I Had A LOT of throw in my rudder and elevator to achieve this.)


Then there is my friends GS Extra. With that you don't apply opposite aileron to rudder, but the same direction.

Maybe it is a matter of finding the right combination. Keep trying, with the Carl Goldberg Extra you'll find it works somewhere there. I've seen it done.

Brian
Thanks. As long as I know it can be done, I will keeping working at it. Again, I have only been successful with my electric Extra and then certainly not all the time.

Thanks again,

Frank
Old 08-04-2009, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Mine does the flat spin so well it scares the pee waddel out of me, I keep waiting for parts to start flying off of it!! I have to take it way up then induce a stall, I watch to see what wing is going to drop, it's always the left wing, well, most the time. Then I hit the throttle, elevator and ailerons in the direction of the stall then cross over my ailerons the other direction to get it flat, shazam!!!!!!!!! It pulls out of the spin very well but that's when I always wonder, do I have enough space between me and the ground???? So far so good. I like doing them with my Hots a lot more.
I have one friend with a giant Ultimate that just pulls vertical then cuts power and hits his controls and it goes right into a flat spin, all of my planes I have to stall them first?? Not all of my planes will do it correctly either. Besides my Hots the best spinner I have is a giant Decathlon?? That big slug fooled me, it's the planes best stunt.
Old 08-06-2009, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Had about 8 flights now. Added a few stickers. The under side I thought would be more visible than it is.
being primarily white with some blue, it is horrid and hard to see in a orvercast light grey sky with the odd bits of blue breaking through.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Man am I jealous! I like your Extra.

Along with the templates, I am building three Extra Extras!

How do you like your landing gear? As soon as I can I will be ordering mine. They asked me for specs. Do you still have yours that I can give them?

Everyone that wants to see the Goldberg kits back, please go to this link and share your desire to purchase them and get Hobbico to re-issue the kits they have taken away:

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8994041/tm.htm[/link]

I ask you to please post.

Thank you
Brian
Old 08-06-2009, 11:16 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

I will do that.
I would not mind building one with some changes.
My landing gear is great.
It looks good and the attitude of the plane on take off and landing and taxiing is great. Still needs slight up elevator on taxiing so it must have been horrid as per plan built one.
Old 08-06-2009, 11:45 AM
  #344  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Ilikebipes, did you call Mike at Graph Tech? Phone 832-335-0328. He makes forward swept gear for the CG Extra. Did I PM you the code for 10% off through August?

Dobra, we have similar paint schemes on top. Underneath mine is primary red.

Ilikebipes, does the newer kit you and Big Al are building still have the wire gear? If so I think if they re-released the Extra they should market it as a re-release of the original with updated landing gear. It wouldn't take much to change the building plans and kit to include some sort of inexpensive forward swept aluminum gear. Change the mounting block and have aluminum gear stamped out swept forward. It wouldn't be as nice as carbon fiber, but carbon fiber would be too expensive to include in the kit. I definitely don't think they should reissue the kit without improving the wire gear/nose over on grass.
Old 08-06-2009, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

West,

The updates would be nice, but I think that they will be perplexed to tool for a run of kits they've never offered before as it is. I hate to ask for the world and give me the moon too- if you get my drift.


Graph Tech was very nice to communicate with me. They think they have what I'm asking for but are unsure. So they are asking for demensions.

What blows me away is that they are willing to make the gear custom if I offer demensions. That goes out of the way as far as I'm concerned. I can't wait to order mine. Eventually, I'll have to have three of them!

If I don't have the discount code, I'll get back to you.
Old 08-06-2009, 02:29 PM
  #346  
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Ilikebipes, the irony here is that I just blew out over 500 emails two days ago, and in those emails were all my emails with Mike with dimensions. The only email I kept from Graph Tech was recent regarding a different order.

Were you talking to Mike? Ask for the same Goldberg Extra forward swept he sold to Dave in Oregon.
Old 08-06-2009, 10:04 PM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Dobra, that still one of the better looking Extras, just really clean looking. My problem is being color blind and if I can't see the contrast of the top and bottom of the plane I get all messed up even in our over bright sun light here. All of my Extras have had to get at least 3 inch contrasting stripes or circles on the bottom or I loose them.
I didn't have any problems with the wire gear on a hard packed surface but if it was rough or grass they tended to make the plane flip over on landings. I really like the looks of the Carbon Fiber gear!! Really cleans up the lines.
Brian, if they made changes I would wonder about the kit price, it was still under 200 when they were bough out. It was over what I could afford then, not the kit as much as adding in the glass parts from FGS and the LG. It's not a cheap kit if you get the after market parts. I wonder how much they would want for the kit with the good stuff added into the kit.
Old 08-07-2009, 12:13 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

Gray Beard,

That is why the answer to make everyone happy, in my opinion, at the least cost/most profit for both manufacturer and consumer- would be plans and templates. Let us worry about the supplies, just let us have access to the airplanes. The problem we will be running into is that there are a billion Extras out there on the market already. It makes sence that they would only sell what they don't already have that makes money for them. This will be a "wing and a prayer" endeavor at best. Hobbico not only needs to break even on this, but make money on it to go forward with it. That is why everyone who sees these threads should promise to buy something we are requesting and back it up with enthusiasm.

There are a few things I would "fix." Let's face it, this is not exactly up to date construction. The fuse needs a redesign to be competitive. People now days expect not just amazing performance, which this kit offers, but scale appearance as well. The flat bottom fuse is a problem, the landing gear and its position, and the weight of all the ply in the fuse. All things that can be rectified, but will they? The simpler request is to just release it again as is. We can fix it.

This is why we need OVERWHELMING support to make this worth their while. Even if for only the plans and templates.

But, I want to try the route I am first. I just hope my efforts will be backed up by such a large response they won't have any choice. I hope to see a responce.

Brian

p.s. I get my T-pins tomorrow. Back to the building board. Woo WHOOO!!!
Old 08-07-2009, 09:12 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

bigal126-

Any more progress?
Old 08-07-2009, 10:55 AM
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Default RE: Goldberg Extra 300

You brought up a very good point. If I have to sell a shot gun or two so I can stock up on some of the kits I guess I would. I like the idea of them selling the plans, instructions and templates for these older kits, then letting the builder do there own changes. If they would do something like that I would have a shop full of them. I missed out on the Sukhoi kit and always wanted one, something to go along with the Extra. I would be stocking up on the plans and templates!!

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