somegeek

My Feedback: (2)

At my field on Saturday, a member was flying a Sig Kadet Senior ARF and doing a regular speed loop - nothing fast. As he was on the downward side of the loop the wings folded right before he got level. Close inspection of the wing pieces revealed shearing web pieces that were still whole with edges that only appeared half covered with glue on one side... there were places where the glue didn't penetrate the grooves in the spars where these were installed. The wood should break, not the joint. The center section above the fuselage was nearly in one piece. The wing appeared to have failed between the ribs along the edges of the fuselage section and the next rib out.

As I looked at this, I thought to myself how that could have been prevented. I get full coverage with my Titebond II in my joints using toothpicks, q-tips, pins, weights, etc. to assure a thorough solid bond. Not knocking ARFs, just saying I like the quality one can ensure when they take the time to do a solid build themselves. Peace of mind being a kit builder I guess.

Was a bummer to see this plane go down due to a few shotty joints. Luckily the tail feathers busted off in their full pieces and the fuselage was pretty much spared so a solid rebuild is possible.

somegeek

Dr1Driver

Not knocking ARFs, just saying I like the quality one can ensure when they take the time to do a solid build themselves.

I'll knock'em for ya. EXACTLY why I build my own planes! These companies got 10 year old children and 80 year old grannies in Sri Lanka, China, or India building planes and many of them have never even SEEN a plane, much less seen an R/C model fly. They're using hot-melt glue guns, for Pete's sake! They're paid about .50 an hour and just really don't know.

Check Dick Pettit's review of the Hanger 9 "FuntanaX 100" in the December R/C Report. That's scary! And I thought Hanger 9 was supposed to be one of the better ARFs. Humph!

Dr.1

pacoflyer

My Feedback: (23)

Sounds all too familiar. I lost a new Cermark Pitts a couple of years ago along with $ 900 worth of engine and radio components. A review of the wreckage revealed that much of the wing spars had not even been glued. When I confronted Mr. Cermark face to face at Toledo later that year, he refused to speak with me even though I had parts of the wing in hand... Needles to say they lost a great customer..
paul

Gringo Flyer

My Feedback: (18)

I too prefer to build but have bought a couple of ARFs. I remember seeing a 40 sized spit in level flight all of a sudden shed its wing. The guy flying only flew in circuits... nothing fancy at all. The fuse kept going straight and ended up crossing a road. The wing floated down. When we took a look at the plane the entire plate that the wing dowel at the LE fits into had just popped right off. No wood splinters or anything, just hot glue that let go. To drops of titebond on the ends of that plate would have been all it needed to stay put.

Safebet

My Feedback: (12)

A friend of mine has lost two Senior's, both due to failure of the "Balsa" spar where the wing joins the fuselage. Sig replaced the first one, and it happened again in exactly the same manner. After visiting with Sig about the second, they told my friend that tey had discovered a "fault" at the factory and the problem is being taken care of. They are going to replace the second plane, also. I think Sig is to be commended for their forthrightness and their willingness to stand behind their products.

ron9844

My Feedback: (65)

I just sold all of my ARF Kits due to the reasons above, Yoiou don't know whats under the covering and if you have to reglue the joints why not just build the plane. I had a Yak 54 50cc size and the landing gaer came out on the 4th landing, there was 2 things missing in the construction, GLUE and REAL PLYWOOD, it pulled out with really no damage to the surrounding areas. The manufacturer will at time replace the kit but not any of the equipment or engine that may have been damaged.

Ron9844

millsap

BUILD YOUR OWN BUILD YOUR OWN.Thay look and fly better and you dont see one like it at the field.That feels good ....agree....!!!!!!!

Stickbuilder

Last year, I bought 2 ARF's. (My first one and my last one). I won't mention the name of the distributor in this thread, but they are one of the sacred cows of ARFdom. If you so much as suggest that they are less than perfect, the thread Warden will strike your post, and everyone in the ARF forum puts you on their blacklist. The company that distributes them starts with the name of the place where you park an airplane, and ends with the number just higher than 8. I will tell you that the firewall was just tacked in place with hot glue, the retract mounts were not even glued in a couple of places, the sheeting was cracked, and one of the stringers was broken in half. The belly pan did not even come close to fitting, and those are just the defects that you could see. The scary part is that they reccomend the Saito 100 engine for this turd. I finished it, made one trim flight, and sold it complete with a brand new JR 8103 setup, and the Saito. Lost my Butt on the sale, but I figure it was worth it not to have that pile of junk in my hangar.

Why are the ARFer's so adamant about these piles? Have they never seen a quality build? According to them, this was a great ARF, and one should expect to have to correct such things. The really scary part is that I knew what to look for. How many of them do not?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

stang

My Feedback: (1)

I'll never, ever, ever have an ARF again! I have seen too many go in taking engines and radio gear to the trash can.
Besides, I get more satisfaction flying something that I built and covered.
Have you ever noticed the reaction from your friends when you show up at the field with your new ARF?,
"yeah, nice plane buddy, (yawn)"

Lamoilleriver

Well I"m sure if you call the company and make a claim they will reimburse you. (sarcasm) ARF's I will not buy and have refused free ones. They are really crapola and I'm glad there are other folks with similar opinions about them.

Dr1Driver

starts with the name of the place where you park an airplane, and ends with the number just higher than 8.

Tree 10?

Dr.1

Stickbuilder

Pretty close, pretty close, but ease back on the number a notch, and it's the place where you are supposed to park a full scale airplane (if you are wealthy....not on the tie down pad)

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

GAP-RCU

Bill - people are always parking their ARFs in our trash can at the field. We have to keep telling folks to quit using the trash can to store their planes!



Gary

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I had one I bought used, A Creek 1/4 scale Extra. It flew great and cost me almost nothing and looked good. After I replaced the landing gear block with some real ply wood the LG quit falling off. One day I spotted my wings didn't tighten down to the fuse?? I looked and thought the brass thread inserts were just unscrewing and tightened them back up. At the end of the day they were out again, seems the almost real ply outer wing ribs themselves were coming apart. Fixed that with glass and epoxy. Other then that nothing else was wrong and the plane flew great again until I noticed the fuse was cracking right in front of the tail feathers.
I sold the plane and I'm sure it will be OK for the pilot that bought it from me. I do tend to ring out A plane and the ARFs just don't hold up to my way of flying. I do see A lot of older ARFs where I fly that have worked out well but none of them seem to last as long as my own planes I build myself. I do see A lot of glue failing in places it shouldn't like fire walls and wings.
I'm still tempted though, been eye balling A nice little ARF Extra, it looks good and I can't beat the price. I just want to watch it and see how long it lasts, like about A year then give it A look over before I lay down any money. It's way cheaper then the CG Extra kit. I'm thinking about it but haven't acted on it yet. I'll proubably just keep thinking.

Stickbuilder

The only bad thing about trying to add enough glue and reinforcement to an ARF, Is that
1. It's hard to find a tub big enough to hold that much epoxy,
2. It's awfully expensive to buy that much epoxy,
3. The Sumbi**h will be so heavy, you might as well try to hover a cinder block.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Charlie P.

I live in both worlds. I like some ARFs and most kits. My small fleet right now is about 50/50; and my largest/fanciest model is an ARF (a 27% Ultimate). I've seen kit built models fail and die with folded wings because the builder had cut and installed the webs with the grain parallel to the wing. I've also seen kit built planes that ended up 30% heavier than design dogs because the builder thought more glue, more wood, more reenforcement, heavier gear, etc. was a good idea.

First thing I do with an ARF is add two strips of 2 oz cloth - one on either side of the firewall. I've had a firewall pull loose on a G.P. and since then I don't trust them. Luckily I spotted that one while taxiing. I then use an acid brush to wipe Titebond II on every seam I can reach in the fuselage. I also thin some epoxy and fireproof the tank compartment. The wings . . . not much can be done with a pre-covered wing. I beef up the center joint with fiberglass and occasionally incorporate a fiberglass reenforcement rod or batten section into the wing joiner inserts if they are lite-ply. (I don't trust lite-ply).

I've seen an ARF smack another plane in a mid-air, tearing the wing off the other plane, and land in one piece afterwards with no damage. I had time to watch it because my plane was a smoking lawn dart at the time having no wing for lift. Two nylon bolts sheared but my wing was still strong and mostly intact except for the prop/spinner strike area. Fluttered down gently a minute after the rest of the plane had come in like a meteor and I was able to reuse those servos at least. Zero damage to the ARF. [>:] Motor even kept running. Grrrr.

JohnAgnew2978

ARFs keep getting better, but the "bad glue" syndrome is still with us. At our field, the GP ARFs seem to be the most reliable. I have a GP Lancair, which I couldn't reproduce for twice the money, but I like to know what is inside the wing, and you can't do that without building it yourself.
John Agnew

Stickbuilder

If anyone (especially you guys who live and breathe ARF's) are interested, the new (December 2007) issue of RC Reports magazine has a test article, written by Dick Pettit, on a new model from the same Sacred Cow who's name I would not mention. This model suffered a firewall failure due to a lack of adhesive to the firewall joint. According to Pettit, there was adequate tringular stock that was glued to the fuselage, but no adhesive for the firewall to triangle stock joint. You guys keep on buying their crap. I'll bet the owners are rolling on the floor and laughing theit a**es off (all the way to the bank).

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ron9844

My Feedback: (65)

I have just got back in the hobby after about a 10 year absense and looked at the ARF's and purchased a few. After opening the box and really looking at the quality I should have saved my money. The AFF's I chose were by the bigger name companies and one 50cc. The 50cc lasted (YAK54 Quick B****) 4 landings before the gear puled out. Also Stick 60 that wassuposedly covered with Monocoat that just would not shrink to get the wrinkles out. I think if the manufcturers stopped worrying about how fast they can get them to market and build a better product and charged a bit more (and used real glue, epoxy and plywood) they would sell probaby even more.

That being said there is nothing like building your own model for a few reasons: 1. you know how it is built and that it will not fall apart from vibration. 2. when you go to the field you don't have a cookie cutter airplane but one that is different. 3. you now have something to be proud of because you built it and have now become a modeler and not just a flier. 4. also if you build and decide to do an ARF and ding it you will know how to repaie i instead of throwing it in the trash.

With some of the new smaller companies making kits and cutting parts for the better plane it is making kit building even better with a good selection wih real plywood in the correct places.

Just my 2 cents

Ron

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

There is an ancient saying in manufacturing,"Quality is free". I suspect the problem with ARF's is that there often is no "factory". Instead rural workers pick up materials and go home and build 40 fuselages. They bring the fuselages back to the agent who inspects the finished work and pays them based on the number of apparently good fuselages they have completed and then hands them more materials.

The problem with this system is that the worker is incentivised into rushing the frame assembly because he/she is paid by the piece not by the hour. Since he/she is working remotely there is no way to inspect and correct poor workmanship prior to the abuse being covered up in the structure and covering.

A simple solution would be to redesign the major parts so they can be more thoroughly inspected.

donniercjet

My Feedback: (10)

my ex-club had a trainer that had a mid-air. no one wanted to mess with fixing it, so i said that i would fix it. i brought it home and put it on the bench and needed to pull the "covering"(contact paper) to see how much damage there was. i cut down the fuse on the bottom where the bottom and right side meet so i could start to peel it off. to my suprise the fuse layed open flat on the bench!! the only glue in the fuse was where they put the fuse formers on the left side of the fuse. the only thing that was holding the fuse together was the "covering". there was no glue on any sides of the fuse. the firewall had been riped off so i could not inspect it. since i had decovered this, the first thing i do if my wife buys me an arf is to basiclly break the model down so i can re-glue it. its a pain in the backside but i can't afford to take the chance of losing my equipment to a poorly built model...

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

Had my share of ARFs with nary a failure. Have seen many kit builts come apart in the air (one was built and overstressed by me). Quality is variable no matter who built it, but seems to me a factory built airplane will be safer than an amateur built.


Years ago I read a story about the Piper factory company picnic (1980). The company was providing airplane rides to the workers..."many of whom have never flown in an airplane before"! That's right, some folks building fullsize airplanes have never flown in one. [X(]

Dr1Driver

Quality is variable no matter who built it, but seems to me a factory built airplane will be safer than an amature built.

You're assuming the people in the factory (if there is one) know more about airplanes, and the building of airplanes, than the "amatures" (sic) who have been doing it for many, many years. I'll take issue with that.

Many of the people building our ARFs have only the most basic knowledge of what they're doing and what their work will be subjected to. Some have simply been pulled off the streets and offered a pittance to "Glue part A to part B with this glue gun. Hurry up, you have a quota to meet!"

Many builders in this hobby are certainly NOT amateurs, except in the fact they don't get paid for their work. Many are expert builders. Ever seen a Masters Scale plane close up?Not to blow my own horn, but I've been building kits and scratch building for over 20 years. I can lay up a framework within 1/32" TIR. I've developed techniques, skills, and knowledge over the years that surpass most ARF manufacturer's workers. I'm not the only one. There are many in this forum with the same abilities or more.

As for the non-flying full scale airplane workers, they must be trained and certified to do that they're doing, and their work is constantly inspected at each step. Quite a difference from the typical ARF "factory", I'd suspect.

Just because a company or big name in the industry does it doesn't make it good or right.

Dr.1

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

True, many are expert builders, but of course many aren't as well. Those are the amateurs I'm speaking of. I'd prefer those guys flew ARFs. As for the ARF manufacturers, perhaps I'm just lucky, but mine are all perfectly built...especially my CG Senior Falcon which is flawless inside and out! I have inspected it quite thoroughly and believe me, I'm picky (Type-A to the 3rd power)!

Yak

GerKonig

I Had a Electric Telemaster firewall come off. Lucky me, It was taxiing back. The whole firewall (motor and all) came off, and the prop cut my right wing leading edge. I have been in the hobby since the 1970's . It was an easy fix, but had it failed seconds earlier the whole thing would have been a wreck. It was a good desig, ****ty glue (had not really hardened) and ****ty labor (glue missing in crucial spots). I also had Hangar 9 planes (a trainer and 80" cub) and I flew those until I got tired and I sold them in great shape years later. Now I have also a RV-6 ARF and a Curtiss Hawk (both GP) and so far, so good:-)
BUT, since I have been in the hobby so long, I can tell you BEFORE the ARF's arrived, I have sen many, many, many, many planes go in in similar fashion to what you guys describe here about the ARFS. I also have a Sig clipped wing 1/4 scale, BALSA USA 1/4 scale Super Cub (a converted J-3), and I am finishing a BUSA Fokker DVIII.
I do not write off ARFs, I do inspect them as much as I can BEFORE the assembly, and I read feedback in this forums about the models I am assembling. (I got grean info in Rcuniverse about my curtiss). There are more ARF crashes now than there are non ARFs because there are many times more ARF than non-Arfs at the field... At least in my neck of the woods... I do not fly 3D, but like 99% of those are ARFS... ALSO 99% of the new guys are NOT building their planes (so, they crash ARFS). And us that have some experience (those that build our planes) do not crash so often because most of the time we use better judgdement (but do not count on it).
Also: I have to say that most of the good ARF coverings are flawless, some like the Curtiss Hawk are outstanding. As a matter of fact, you can tell easily which is an arf and which is not looking at the covering. The ARFS on average are better covered:-)
Heck, I like all planes..

Gerry