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topflite elder 40 build

Old 11-20-2010, 10:27 AM
  #251  
Intruder38
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Your idea of the beveled sheeting to eliminate the lip to "catch the wing" as it tries to escape a significant landing is a great idea. Thanks for sharing.
Old 11-20-2010, 10:50 AM
  #252  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build


ORIGINAL: Intruder38

Your idea of the beveled sheeting to eliminate the lip to ''catch the wing'' as it tries to escape a significant landing is a great idea. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Intruder38

You worded it much better than I did , helps the cause

Since this is my first hatch that I have ever built ,................... not bad ,........... but I do have a mistake[:'(] But I,m happy with it . Now I want to find a way to keep it down . In the yesteryear's they use leather straps on some kind of hooks . I,ll put the old thinking cap on .

Some pic,s of the progress .

Michel
Old 11-20-2010, 10:41 PM
  #253  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Payoff time and some personal eyecandy , eat youre hearts out ARF guys ( couldn,t resist that comment , )

Michel
Old 11-20-2010, 11:43 PM
  #254  
52larry52
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Michel, Lookin good!!! Nice job on the hatch. Got some thoughts on the hatch hold down. First, I don't think it will take much to hold it in place in flight, maybe some of those small rare earth magnets that hold down the canopes/top hatches on many electric airplanes. Or another thought would be to just cover over it and let the covering hold it down. If something bad happens ( fuel tank leaks or ????)and you need access just slit the covering with your Xacto knife to open it up, then seal it back down with a strip of matching covering or trim tape. Maybe one or two small vertical alignment pegs along each side inside where you have a flat frame on the hatch bottom would keep it aligned with the fuselage sides too. Keep it simple. Have you told us what colors and trim scheme you have planned. If your going with the standard cream with a silver cowl, the horizonal hatch joint will be right where a black trim tape stripe will be so use 1/4" wide tape and have that holding the hatch with matching silver tape going up and over the arched top. Just some ideas!!
Old 11-21-2010, 08:53 AM
  #255  
Intruder38
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Nice work! I've had my Elder in the ready to cover mode for a long time (think a couple of years). This thread has got me thinking it's time to get back to it.

I have a request. If you will, when it comes time to rig the aft fuselage, please post some close-up pix of how you attach the rigging. I have considered elastic thread, coated fishing line, and thin aluminum rod and all leave me wondering about weight (the plane will be tail-heavy as it is), durability (I don't want to have to re-rig after every flight), and/or structure (drilling holes in the members strikes me as not a great idea).

Thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.
Old 11-21-2010, 09:59 AM
  #256  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi Intruder38

I was asking my self that for some time now about the rigging wire , and have come to a conclusion . Many here , on the thread , are going, or are , useing elastic cord , this is what the instructions recommend . Nope ,.............. I cann,t do that trick , I,m afraid the glow goo , will affect it at some point of time . So,................... I going to use , Vinyl Coated Kevlar . I will put it on after the tail section has been stained and fuel proofed . I am also thinking of an idea to put very small rings inside the rear framework to hold the rigging , we,ll see how that comes out .

If you have gone through the thread , I will also be fiber-glassing the fuse section of the aircraft . I have had my fill with plastic film . Although most kits to are designed around them . I will be useing Word-Tex fabric to cover the wings and tail section , along with the control surfaces .

Well,..... I ve attached the rear wing bolt tray hold down . I did make a slight change . I maked spacers out of 1/16 ply , so that the tray , is in the correct position , on both sides of the fuse . Also I angled the spacers , so that the tray is at the same angle as the wing bolts . These spacers , could of been made out of balsa sheeting also . But I have lots of scrap wood .

On to the wing fairing , and lower wing fillets .

Thanks for looking in .

Michel
Old 11-21-2010, 05:43 PM
  #257  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Just adding to the thread .

Well ,............... I,ve installed the wing bolts and I almost made the mistake of useing a 1/4 inch drill instead of a 11/64 . The difference is , I cann,t tap a 1/4 inch hole with a 1/4inch tap ( Whooooo ) , saved by a break .

I have completred the top front wing fairing ,...... aaahhhh , not bad , but acceptable .

Now I only have two things left , the lower front filets , and the tail wheel , and the main construction should be complete , at least I think it is . Than it,s on to the finanal sanding and than the part that will tell all , the fiberglassing

At this stage I,d say it,s 50% complete , it,s all down hill .

Michel
Old 11-21-2010, 06:18 PM
  #258  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Just playing with my toys

Michel
Old 11-21-2010, 10:21 PM
  #259  
52larry52
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Michel, I also angled the wing bolts to try matching the angle of the wing, and then had to notch the upper front area of the tray where the aileron push rods pass thru to prevent binding against the tray. Watch for that when you install and test the aileron servo and push rods.
Old 11-22-2010, 07:27 AM
  #260  
builder jim
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

I've just ordered my elder and have read this post all the way through and will use a lot of the changes to mine as am building that it is now a civilian elder after the war, mine is to be cream with transparent orange wings and stab, fin also.... many thanks to all of you for the great input on this kit as it really helps us make up our mine's and all of you have skills that most folks dont and that makes you stand out.....jim
Old 11-22-2010, 02:51 PM
  #261  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Welcome aboard builder jim , the more the merrier .

52larry52 ,................ You are absolutly right about the aileron control rods , they do touch at the extreme position down . And I followed the , " Product Improvement Supplement " . I will have you know , that I have had my rounds with TopFlites . R&D team , I,ve learnt they are , "NEVER " , wrong . I kept the wing hold down plate 5/8 inch from the bottom of the , LONGERON , just as it shows . all I did was help the cause , it should be better , but it still touchs . I turned the plate , so that the angle is the same as the top rear wing angle . What shows in red , are the 1/16 ply spacer plates , that I fabricated .

I,ve come up with an idea for the wire wheels , to hold them in place . I found some brass nuts , that come from some licence plate bolts . I added a fuel line barb to center the nut on the brass tubeing , and tha soldered it to gether . The collar behind the wheel will have the set screw go through the brass tubing and grab on to the axel , with a very small flat spot ,................ just an idea . The work on them is not complete , I,m just trying out the idea . Sorry for the dust all over everything , the pictures are a little messed up .

Whats next ,.................................... No idea

Michel
Old 11-22-2010, 08:54 PM
  #262  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Intruder, Re your question on how to rig the aft fuselage; I installed small piece of 1/16"x 1/4"x1/2"bulsa glued in at a 45* angle at each junction of a horz. and vert. open frame piece. This left just enough room to feed two pieces of the elastic thread thru the hole. You could also do the same thing with a triangular gusset with a hole in it glued in at every junction. Both ways will add strenght to each joint plus give you somewhere to run the elastic thread or whatever you use. I rigged my aft fuselage with two continous pieces of thread, one did the top and bottom, and one did the left and right sides. I also did the wing with two continous pieces of thread, one did the left wing top and bottom, and one did the right wing top and bottom. I did not glue the thread into the blocks in the wing but instead made the hole just large enough for the thread to pass freely thru in order to rig each wing with one piece of elastic thread. I also didn't use a bottom fuselage king post to try to keep the wires out of the exhaust airstream. I also have an exhaust extension on the muffler to further lower the exhaust exit spot. So far it works as the thread stays clean. See my earlier post #201 for photos. Everyone seems to do this a little differently but maybe you can combine ideas and come up with something that will work for you.
Old 11-22-2010, 10:45 PM
  #263  
Zor
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Why not make those wire braces so they work like they used to on old times airplanes ?

Zor
Old 11-23-2010, 12:14 AM
  #264  
52larry52
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Zor, Tailweight !!! Also the elastic thread is EZ to install, BUT if you are using a very heavy engine then the extra tailweight may be ok. On my Elder with an O S 46 FX two stroke ( 17 oz w/muffler) I had to add 4 oz to the nose to balance it. It was tailheavy with elastic thread in the rear fuselage and would be worse with wire back there. Most Elder owners say thier's came out tailheavy before balancing.
Old 11-23-2010, 08:53 AM
  #265  
Zor
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build


ORIGINAL: 52larry52

Zor, Tailweight !!! Also the elastic thread is EZ to install, BUT if you are using a very heavy engine then the extra tailweight may be ok. On my Elder with an O S 46 FX two stroke ( 17 oz w/muffler) I had to add 4 oz to the nose to balance it. It was tailheavy with elastic thread in the rear fuselage and would be worse with wire back there. Most Elder owners say thier's came out tailheavy before balancing.
Just a few comments ___

Tiny dia stainless steel wires would not be any heavier than elastic and would have considerable tension strength. It just appears to me that the rear fuselage structure as is now is easy to break in a bad landing or if a tree branch interferes with the rear surfaces (the feathers LOL).

I can see the installation would be easier than elastics and would not produce a constant unequal tension on the structure. There would be no tension at all but absolute rigidity as well as appearance like the full size would have had if it existed .

It is just an idea in my mind that would work so well, so easy to do and so practical and useful.

Those litlle pieces glued outside the longerons would not be needed.

Anyway, forget my ideas, I am not the one building the models. It is however what I would do if I was.

A design that is tail heavy has to have a reason whether it is for strength or ease of fabricaiton.
Whatever the reason it is not a good design.

I have never understood the fellows that preach for light weight and simultaneously preach for speed (they call it "performance").
Ya ___ more speed at impact and a lighter, weaker structure for light weight so that more pieces can be put in the garbage bag.

Try to figure this one out ____
.
Zor
Old 11-23-2010, 11:03 AM
  #266  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi all,
I had to put my 2cents in on this one. It has been many moons since I built my elder however I did opt for the real deal. very fine wire. I used aluminum wire I pulled from multi stranded electrical wire. It is very light and strong. I found the weight difference between it and thread to be insignificant. I did however make the little caps on the outside of the frame out of aluminum coke cans. All up weight difference between the two methods was less then 10 grams. (not enough to upset the CG.

To answer the point about this plane being tail heavy. It is because it is modeled after the pre WWI aircraft. All the planes of that era had heavy engines with short distance from the CG to the prop. They balanced fine but when translated to a model with out better weight to power engines we end up with a problem with tail weight.

I build as light as I can but still be faithful to scale. I do not build to survive a crash but to have a plan that will fly safely and predictably. A crash is that last thing Iever want to have. A crash means I have made a mistake. Build to perform and not be damaged with normal takeoff, flight, and landing stresses is my motto.

Just my viewpoint take or discard it as you see fit.
Old 11-23-2010, 05:18 PM
  #267  
Michel
 
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ORIGINAL: Sharpeye22

Hi all,
I had to put my 2cents in on this one. It has been many moons since I built my elder however I did opt for the real deal. very fine wire. I used aluminum wire I pulled from multi stranded electrical wire. It is very light and strong. I found the weight difference between it and thread to be insignificant. I did however make the little caps on the outside of the frame out of aluminum coke cans. All up weight difference between the two methods was less then 10 grams. (not enough to upset the CG.

To answer the point about this plane being tail heavy. It is because it is modeled after the pre WWI aircraft. All the planes of that era had heavy engines with short distance from the CG to the prop. They balanced fine but when translated to a model with out better weight to power engines we end up with a problem with tail weight.

I build as light as I can but still be faithful to scale. I do not build to survive a crash but to have a plan that will fly safely and predictably. A crash is that last thing I ever want to have. A crash means I have made a mistake. Build to perform and not be damaged with normal takeoff, flight, and landing stresses is my motto.

Just my viewpoint take or discard it as you see fit.

Hi

I,ll second that ,.................... we don,t build to crash ,....................... very the opposite , we build to fly , and learn how to do it better when we crash . And , we do it all over again LOL

Michel
Old 11-23-2010, 05:46 PM
  #268  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

I received my carbon fiber control rods to-day , Wowwwwwww , what a differrence in weight , and are they ever rigid . I beleive , that these will look better in the frame work , than the wood rods that was supplied with the kit . I also glued the reccommend pilot ( bust ) . I,m glad the I made the cock-pit smaller , than what was indicated in the plans . It should come out , " OK " .

Sorry for the size of the pictures , I have no idea what happened . Just clic on them , and they will come down in size .

Michel
Old 11-23-2010, 05:50 PM
  #269  
Zor
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build


ORIGINAL: michel gravelle


ORIGINAL: Sharpeye22

Hi all,
I had to put my 2cents in on this one. It has been many moons since I built my elder however I did opt for the real deal. very fine wire. I used aluminum wire I pulled from multi stranded electrical wire. It is very light and strong. I found the weight difference between it and thread to be insignificant. I did however make the little caps on the outside of the frame out of aluminum coke cans. All up weight difference between the two methods was less then 10 grams. (not enough to upset the CG.

To answer the point about this plane being tail heavy. It is because it is modeled after the pre WWI aircraft. All the planes of that era had heavy engines with short distance from the CG to the prop. They balanced fine but when translated to a model with out better weight to power engines we end up with a problem with tail weight.

I build as light as I can but still be faithful to scale. I do not build to survive a crash but to have a plan that will fly safely and predictably. A crash is that last thing Iever want to have. A crash means I have made a mistake. Build to perform and not be damaged with normal takeoff, flight, and landing stresses is my motto.

Just my viewpoint take or discard it as you see fit.
Hi

I,ll second that ,.................... we don,t build to crash ,....................... very the opposite , we build to fly , and learn how to do it better when we crash . And , we do it all over again LOL

Michel
Hi Michel

I just wonder if you are now seconding the idea of having working wires reinforcing the fuselage.
Aluminum wires will do it nicely. I was mentioning stainless steel because I have some about the size of a no 10 sewing thread.

We do not build to crash, that is quite obvious but I always considered to build for minimum damage in a crash. This philosophy comes from my early years with home brew radios where crashing was a common occurrence.

Doing it all over again was for us "doing another crash" .
Many flights were nice and successful. Spending a whole day flying and experimenting was the order of the day. expecting another crash. Not crashing was sometime disappointing having nothing to repair during the week. Sounds funny but that is the way it was.

Ah! ___souvenirs of "The Good Old Times".

Zor
Old 11-23-2010, 06:15 PM
  #270  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi Zor

AAAHHHHH ,.................. the spirit of modeling ,...................... you said it ,............... the good old days [sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif] .

I,m still useing the Kevlar , that I have planned , and besides , Kevlar is much , much stronger , and lighter , than aluminum . And beside , with you guys sharing youre thoughts , I,ve come up with an idea [sm=idea.gif]

I love this place

Michel
Old 11-27-2010, 09:54 AM
  #271  
Michel
 
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Hi

Snowing outside ,................... looks beautiful , all white , and a gental snow fall . very peaceful

This week-ends goal , is the placement of the Vickers gun , lower wing fillets , sanding/shaping and fiberglassing of the front shourd and cowl . I,ve installed the tail wheel on the rear fuse , I,m not nuts about it , there,s no collar support , so it will be the rudder that takes the weight if the tail . I,m not useing CA hinges , I,ve gone plastic hinges , more work , better results , that lasts longer . Finished off the landing gear . Sure would like to know how TopFlite got there finish on the landing gear , looks pretty smooth . Mine will be black . I,ve also choosen the World Tex fibric for the finish , it will either be the Antique or the linen , not sure which one as of yet

Michel
Old 11-27-2010, 11:46 AM
  #272  
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Very nice airplane and workmanship. I can tell it's from the 'Empire' because of its Vickers machine gun![sm=regular_smile.gif]
Old 11-28-2010, 08:29 AM
  #273  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Well I got my butt going to-day , and did the filets and worked on the gun . Sanded down the filets a little tooo much . I might add two 1/8 dowels to the ends of the gun support . The one thing I like about plywood in that you can sand with the ply,s , comes out even on both sides . Now it,s off to the hardwear store to get some plastic wood filler . And it,s time for the attachment of the upper wire posts .

Michel
Old 11-28-2010, 08:38 AM
  #274  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Hey guys ( and gals to )

A fellow modeler and good friend sent me this ,............................ I thought I would share .

http://www.cdsg.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=381

Michel
Old 11-28-2010, 02:37 PM
  #275  
Michel
 
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Default RE: topflite elder 40 build

Hi

Well , I,ve been at it for a few hours now , took care of the errand that I had to do . I,ve decided to try and put some exhaust manifolds on it . Maybe a six cylinder , three on each side . I,ve also worked on the ,upper wing wire posts . My goal is to have them removeable . What you see in the picture is pretty beefed up . They will have to be sanded down to remove some weight . What you see in the picture with the elastic is the exhausts I made . This doesn,t mean I,ll use them , just want to see if it will bring out a little , "real look " .

Michel

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