Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

Ok I spent the last two days looking through all the thread that showed up in using search for Super Decathlon and Citabria and nothing I see looks like this RC kit.

I picked this Super Decathlon ( tag has ¼ scale Citabria on it ) up at our local auction. It need some word but I think it will be fly able. I'm wondering if one can identify the maker of the Kit. The Bulkheads in the fuselage are machine cut and not laser or hand cut. They are notch to match the plywood stringers that run down the fuselage length, two on top and two on the bottom. There is one plywood stringer that runs down the side and forms the back window ledge. None of the parts are factory marked. All marking I see are in pencil so probably placed there my the person building the kit.

The plastic parts look vacuformed The Cowl is a 3 piece, wheels pants are 2 piece, instrument panel sun visor and wings tips all one piece The Wing tips have a nice touch and have the navigation lights molded in to them. There was even a seat, but that might of came from a different kit.

The RC problems are; a 5 Deg twist in the Fuselage; 11 degree of dihedral in the wings; no real secure to mount the wings; no wing struts; missing ailerons and window plastic.

I Hope some one can ID this kit. Id like to ask some advice about the twisted fuselage and making a better wing saddle. So I don' take up another thread I'll all so use this thread as the rebuild thread. Unless you guys think other wise.

Thanks
Terry
Junkboy999

szig

Looks like a Pilot Bellanca Decathlon.
If so, you have a jewel in your hands.
Let me know the wing span, chord, fuse length, at least, and I can confirm.

Live Wire

The wing tip just does not ring a bell.

May be a 1/4 scale Pilot kit.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Pilot ballencia, I almost confused it for the GSP ARC they sold years ago, but the one I had from GSP actually had the flair in the front cowl and fuse likr the real one does, so this has to be the pilot kit, since it doesn't have the flair in the sheeting.

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

Here are the numbers

I just placed them on a picture to try not to confuse any one.

The wing span is 96" measuring along the wings from tip to mid point of the fuselage them doubling it. This is with the wings tips installed. It is hard to get a good number because of the high dihedral and a broke saddle mount. It looks like a goose flapping its wings.

There is a slight flare under the cowl but these is made up from wood stringers and not sheeted metal or plastic fuselage fairing.

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

So three people thinks it is a Pilot Kit.

Are they still around. I have never head of that one before. I getting back in to RC flying after a 15 year break for military commitments. I have built and flown the smaller Bud Noesen 65" SW kits and enjoyed them. I'm flying a Global Super Decathlon now and have a used Segaull ( I think ) that need so work.


The first thing I'd like to ask is about the twist in the Fuselage. I stripped off all the covering and made a Jig to hold the body. The jig holds the landing gear tight and is mounted to a flat board. I clamped metal bars through the fuselage in two places parallel to the board and measured where it started to twist. I placed weights on the metal bard and soaked the glue joints with alcohol to soften them up a bit. After about 2 days in the shop the twist was gone. The fuselage is straight now but is very easy to twist in either direction with slight pressure applied to the tail. It need some sort of bracing from the left to the right side of the fuselage to help keep it from twisting. Can any one suggest the best type and placement of bracing. Here is a fast mock up of the fuselage plywood bulkheads and stringers in Wings3d. If you have any ideals you can save the Pic and add some braces in any paint program and up load them again.

I would like to make a nice interior for this RC. so the fist 3 bulkheads will have sheeting inside just below the window the window and a floor.

Thanks
Terry
Junkboy999

szig

Hi Terry

Your numbers fit with my Pilot Decathlon plans. I'm 99.9% sure this is what you have.
The dihedral is 1%. The plans include 4 large sheets. 2 with instructions and 2 for the drawings.
I can scan some parts you may need.
Since I see, you need the firewall, ailerons, wing struts and where the wing anchor with fuse for the correct dihedral.
PM your email and I will send them.
Regarding the wing, here are many experts modelers that can show you how best to repair it.

Good luck.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Welcome to the early days of giant scale!! Indeed, that's a PILOT brand Super Decathlon (no longer made). I have one partially completed.

The wings attach with struts which are fully functional. Those small aluminum tube stubs which protrude from the wing roots simply locate the wing on the fuse. The struts are what takes the load in flight. You cannot fly the plane without the struts as the wing will fold.

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Live Wire and Planebuilder66

Szig

Hey thanks for taking the time and checking on the numbers for me. I'm glad to here that the Pilot Kit is view by many builders as one of the more scale Super Decathlon sold one the market as a Kit and not a one of a kind build. I read every post I could find on 4 forums about this kit. There is not much out there. It is sad I got this so late in its life after they closed there doors to business.

As for planes. Yes Yes and Yes Any information you can provide me would be greatly appreciated. I have no clue on what I'm going to power this monster with. I have never owned any gas engine but you got to start somewhere. I will rebuild it as much as I can and then see how mush she weighs and go from there. Plenty of room in that cowl for something big and noisy.

LuvBipes

Thanks for the info. I was afraid about the tube being just for alignment. I was hoping that the tubs where longer in the wing and could mate with a tube in the center of the fuselage to make for a stronger mounting system. Kind of like the tubs in this Super Decathlon that has laid dormant in my shop for a year now. ( like below ) I have a bad habit of buying old decathlons because I don't want to see them junked.

I hope you guys stick around for this project, and LuvBipes if you have any picture of your Pilot SD and feel frogy and want to get back to work on it feel free to upload them here. Or shoot me the link if you got a build thread up that I might of missed.

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7213870/anchors_7213870/mpage_1/key_fiberglass%252Cdecathlon/anchor/tm.htm#7213870]Can Any ID this Fiberglass S Decathlon Kit[/link]

Live Wire

Terry
All that I did was Google Bellanca Models now if I can find what one I have we can rebuild together. Process of elimination should get me some thing also.
Larry K

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

I'll throw my nickel's worth in and agree with everyone else. Definitely a Pilot Decathlon. I fly mine with a Fuji 34 and it is about perfect power. I wouldn't go much below 30cc or need to go over 40cc. Very nice plane with good manners and a great basic aerobat. I hope you can get the issues straightened out and have it flying soon.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Junkboy999, I'll get some pics of my Super Decathlon uploaded this weekend. My fuse is basically ready for paint and I have one wing panel built and covered, but haven't started the other wing yet (too many projects!). I'm in the final stages of building a Goldberg Extra 300, so will probably only get back to the SD in the fall. Feel free to ask all the questions you mite have. This is a 1970's kit that IMO, good as it is, needs a LOT of updating to bring it too current standards.

Since I like to fly aerobatic models agressively, I decided to power mine with a Moki 1.80 (there's no replacement for displacement). If you want a nice scale flyer, a 120 4-strker, would do. BTW, the instructions show a OS 120 twin, which only has the approx power of a 91 Surpass.

To counter the weight of the Moki, I have made provision for 2 elevator servos in the tail per modern practice. Rudder will be a pull-pull setup.

I've made a hatch that will allow me to access and service the radio gear from the bottom of the fuse, so that the whole setup is hidden from view when seen from the top.

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

LuvBipe


I must have ESP. I was thinking about a push-pull Rudder setup with a hatch in the bottom for access as well. I'm still debating about the elevator servos though. Not having a clue on a good engine weight it's still up in the air.


I do have a question about your tail and that twist in mine. I know the covering is going help a lot to keep the tail from twisting in flight, and it seams like every one I talked to that built one of these did it just like the plans. I still need to brace mine. After setting for two weeks in my shop the twist is slowing coming back. I all so do wood working for a hobby and know that this twist will always come back if I do not take the whole thing apart and redo all the joints. Life fixing an one chair. So I rather just make a brace to correct the twist. I was thinking about a brace made of thin craft plywood strips glue together to make a long and narrow L-beam. These would glue to the bottom of one bulkhead and run back to the top of another bulkhead farther back. Like in this example. The bottom would be glued and allowed to dry and the top will not be glued until a bit of reverse twist is placed on the frame. I'm just wonder if one ( the Red one ) would be enough or should I place in two. If I use two, I might be able to incorporate the braces to help hold the servo try for the rudder P-P setup. Just a through.


And thanks in advance I love to see your pics.

Terry
Junkboy999

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Your idea for diagonal bracing is a good one, but I would go across the fuse diagonally, between the formers, from the horizontal longerons at the bottom to the ones at the top, and do it between each set of formers from the back of the cabin (wing T.E) to the front of the H and V stabs. Pin down the fuse to a flat surface so the warp, or twist is removed, and keep it there until the bracing is fitted and glued in place.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Terry, you seem to have a pretty good handle on the twist problem, nothing usefull I can add, I'm afraid.

Here's mine. I did quite a few mods, as mentioned above. Although the elev servos will be sticking out, the rest of radio gear will be concealed under the cockpit floor and seats. I also include a shot of the box artwork to get your juices flowing!

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

As you can see I increased the width of the rudder by 1" and I permanently glued the stab in place. The recommended setup made me very nervous. Now the bracing will only add support, rather than keeping the whole shebang together!

Murdoc

What a nice airplane. I have allways loved dacathlons Bet a fuji 32 would have been a perfect match!

lynchr

Hi Terry, I just lost the reply I had been working on for a while and don't feel like starting over again so this is a condensed version. I am currently building a Pilot Decathlon with full interior. I can answer a lot of your questions and give you some tips. I'm retired and have been spending between 10 and 60 hours a week on it since late 2007. I would prefer to talk to you by phone intially so if you will PM me your phone number and a good time to call I will. Ron

lynchr

Terry – I can relate to your issues with someone else’s “craftsmanship”. I bought my kit as a swap meet in the late 80’s with the fuse (mis)framed (with carpenter’s wood glue) and a lot of other items had been molested and/or ruined. Finally dug it out and started working on in late in 07. I swallowed hard and cut up some sections of the fuse with a razor saw. Then used block & tackle , along with most of my clamps to pull it into something resembling a Decathlon.

At this stage (framed – no covering or trim) mine weighs 13 ½ pounds and is a little tail heavy (without 6 oz battery in the engine box). I am hoping it comes in around 16 pounds when all the dust settles.

The attached pictures will hopefully give you some ideas for your project. Feel free to ask for anything else you would like to see. Comments are by picture.

LEFT FRONT AND RIGHT REAR VIEWS OF FUSELAGE.

I agree with you about the rear section of the fuse having the torsional rigidity of a wet noodle. While I am sure that after covering, it would be fine, I just couldn’t stand the fact that it would list to the side opposite from the tail wheel. I added ¼ x 3/16 balsa diagonal braces on each side between the three bulkheads from rear of cabin to front of tail group. Problem solved. Note that the left cabin widow is hinged with cut-down Du-Bro hinges. They are very close to scale. To hold it closed, I embedded magnets in the window sill and 4-40 flat washers in the frame. The spinner is a Tru-Turn 3” Special that they originally made for thee Byron Husky. It is correct for the plane I am doing. The plans show a 3 ½” Ultimate spinner which is correct for the yellow and black Decathlon that the kit was developed from.

RADIO INSTALLATION

Rear servos are mounted under back seat. Pull – pull on rudder and split elevators. The elevator servo rods cross on their way to the rear. Helps made for a straighter path. The plans have you use a connector wire between the elevator halves. There is no reason to do this, and prevents the servos from fighting each other if not in perfect sync. I slaved Aux2 channel to the elevator to handle servo reversing and fine tuning of centering and end points. I glued a sub-floor to the top of the stringers under the cockpit floor to mount the radio. 2nd receiver for the Spektrum is behind panel on left side wall. Also mounted is the on-board glow circuit for the OS FT160 up front. This system monitors each glow plug individually and only sends current to the one in need. I used the door sills to mount my switches, charging jacks, and the LED’s for the glow system (they indicate the cylinders being provided current).

WING MOUNTING

You mentioned that the wing mounting seemed weak. The kit uses 2 aluminum straps over the top of the wings that tie into hard points between the front and rear upper and lower spars. I wasn’t impressed so modified the mounting as seen here. All the necessary modifications were made to the root ribs before the wings were built. This sacrifices some negative G strength but outside loops will not be a problem. Remember that the Decathlon is not a 3D machine. BTW – you mentioned you had excessive dihedral. I am almost sure that the wings were built with the thick root ribs not properly oriented. They are tapered from top to bottom and if you use a square on the building board (like you would do for ribs) you will have excessive dihedral. Don’t ask how I know.

BOTTOM OF FUSELAGE FRONT

I modified the bottom of the boot cowl to scale by cutting the front two bulkheads to slant it with 1/8” lite ply as shown. Not only is this scale but almost doubles the cowl air outlet size. I framed around the landing gear legs with spruce to locate them after covering has been applied as they are installed with bolts from inside the cabin. Also, this helps take some of the landing load off the bolts. The little tabs on the face of the front bulkhead provides 2 degrees of tow-in to the wheels. Not shown but the kit uses 5 mm bolts for axles. This just isn’t a secure, or strong, arrangement. I used Du-Bro 3/16” axles bolted solid to the gear. The pants were modified to mount to the legs with 2-56 bolts and blind nuts. If you would like pictures of what I did, let me know. The ½ inch paper tube running between the bulkheads is used for the throttle servo lead and glow system wires from the engine to pass into the radio sub floor without being seen.

COCKPIT AND DASH

The instrument panel is from the internet. I Photoshop’ed it for size and to more closely match the plane I am building. The magnetic compass is made from ½ inch dowel and some other do-dads. The joy sticks are bent from some heavy wall aluminum tubing and the grips are vacuum port plugs from the auto parts store. The constant speed propeller knob is made from a dowel, a bamboo skewer, and an aluminum tube. I painted the inside of the boot cowl with semi-flat paint before the sheeting was applied, The controls on the left panel were made from .015 vinyl, Monocoat trim sheet, graphics from Excel , knobs are jewelry beads from craft store glued to carbon fiber rods, and painted black. You should have two seats. If you only have one you can just use it up front and build a balsa cargo crate to cover the servos in the rear. I am still pondering what do with upholstery for the seats. Five fabric stores and no luck on color I need, Guess I’ll have to die my own. I have also not had any luck finding appropriate material for the cargo net that goes behind the rear seat. The material needs to have close to ¼ inch square pattern and be white. The model on the kit box picture has it. Anybody have any ideas for me?

DOOR AND DOOR SILL

Both outside and inside door handles are functional. Wanted to make sure the squirrel I’m training will be able to open the door when he lands. I have way over 100 hours in the door to this point. The door sills were made from 1/8 “ spruce with all the appropriate holes cut before anything was glued in place. I made the faces in Excel with all the information labels, printed on gloss paper in inkjet printer. Sprayed with clear acrylic paint to protect inked surface.

OUTSIDE OF DOOR AND COWL

The door hinges are Robart hinge points. One leg is embedded in the door skin and the other is trimmed to be snug fit in 1/8” square brass tubing. The tubing was glued to the lite ply cabin side and then the balsa sheeting was added around them. The hinges will not be glued into the tubing as it is not necessary and by being able to remove the door quickly it will give more access to the interior to bolt the wings on and connect the aileron servo leads and do other maintenance as required. The cowl is covered on the inside with 2 oz fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin. The scale exhaust pipe is a piece of ½” thin wall chrome plated tubing I found laying around. Turned a dowel down to fit inside it about half way. Epoxy it in tube and then sanded the slant to match tube. Drilled hole in dowel perpendicular to slant to fasten it to cowl.

FIREWALL

The firewall and engine box (redesigned from kit offering to accommodate lower location for fuel tank due to carb location) will not be permanently attached to the fuselage until all the covering has been completed. The cowl is flush fit to the boot cowl sheeting and I want to maintain a crisp step for this. The aluminum plate on the side of the engine box is for access to a compartment (made from a plastic flashlight shell) for the Ni Cad D cell that will power the glow system. There is also enough room in there for additional weight if required for balance. Unless you are using an OS twin, the details of exhaust and fuel filler details are of no use to you.

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

Lynchr

WOW 10 to 60 hours a week, Since 2007. That thing must have in /out door carpeting. Hand switched Italian leather seats and a killer sound system with Nav and pop up DVD. Just kidding. I shot you some contact info in a PM
.


Khodges.
Nice looking engine. How much of the head is showing with the cowling installed. I think I can deal with a little bit showing and the mufflers in the back to. Most of the gas engine seam to have the muffler on the wrong side for the Super Decathlons.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Ron, that is amazing work on your Decathlon. You are an inspiration to us all! I can't wait to see the pics of your completed plane. Mine will be a sport flyer, but having worked quite a bit on it, I can well imagine the craftmanship required to deliver a plane of the standard yours displays.

szig

Ron
You're doing a master piece of art.
Thank you very much for sharing the photos and development of your Decathlon.
I am currently building one from plans and your input is an invaluable help.
Go ahead with the build and please, also continue to share with us your knowledge.

szig

lynchr

Thanks to szig and LuvBipes. I enjoy building and if I stopped and took the time, I could write a book on hints for building the
Decathlon. If I build another one it will be better. I also restore 60's era Chevys.

There is one thing I have found with either hobby that makes all the difference when the project is done. Consider every step as the only thing you will do and it will be seen by EVERYBODY. As soon as you start thinking "The covering will hide that", or "I can fill the gaps with filler", the final quality will reflect that mentality. Also, don't make it your goal to "build this plane". It is easy to become overwhelmed. Just make short term goals like "I am going to frame the rudder today and make every joint perfect". For example, I consider the cabin door a model all on it's own and I have built sport models in less time than I have in the door.

Something else that saves a lot of frustration is to install the engine, fuel tank, all radio gear, and connect the flight surfaces as soon as you have everything framed but before you start sheeting anything. It is easier at this point, and adjustments (changes) are not a big deal. I'll try to post some more pictures as I progress.

Walter D

My Feedback: (16)

"Pilot" it is!
One of the nicest airplanes I ever had (this is going back over 30 years). Had it powered by a Quadra 35.
By the way, anyone using the aluminum brackets that attach the wing struts to the fuselage should replace them with brass instead, they do fatigue and brake off, it takes awhile, but it happens, costed me a fuselage rebuild. Flew it for like 9 years until an idiot turned his radio on without checking the frequencies that were being used, gues who was flying?

Junkboy999

My Feedback: (1)

Ron Thanks for the Call the other day.

I enjoyed the conversation, tips and exchange of Ideals. Your model is difficulty going to be a show stopper when completed. I'm going to go with the half braces from former to former like yours. This should stop the twist from coming back and will help hold the control lines for the rudder. At my local hobby show today I ask about the Sullivan rods you used. The owner of the shop and another guy in the store both had bad thing about them being to brittle and, are known to snap under stress. I don't plan to 3D this thing but I do not feel like taking out all the working again once it is finished. But to each his own.

The back seat hiding the servo mount is nice too. I think I'll go that rough too. Have to try my had at making a new back seat. There a few nice seats that where made in the Dynaflite Super Decathlon build thread..

Sense you have all ready planed on doing the exact paint scheme I was going to do, I'll have to switch to my second choice, ( just kidding, I was not going to do the red trim ) Just in case we run in to each other at a flying field some time ( picture below. )


Walter D

Before I got this kit, I had all three of those pictures saved on my computer and dreamed of having a model that was as nice as it. Now we'll just have to see if I can do it


Thanks Khodges for the input too.


Terry
Junkboy999