Burrito Bandito

O.K. Everybody,

I have learned so much from everyone in the many building threads I look at. I am thinking about doing one of my own if it might help someone out. Here's the plan:

Birthday Present: Sig 4*40
Will build as a "Barbie" theme plane. Pink and White with some Blue pin striping and Gold Stars. Eight year old daughter is ecstatic!

Potential Mods: Fiberglass Cowl from scratch ala Something Extra or Edge. Hatch on top for easier access to tank. 2" Aluminum Spinner, sheeted turtle deck. Was thinking of using 6" of aileron as flaps, but may trash that idea. Anybody done it? O.S. .46FX with three bladed prop. Sheeted wing from main spar to leading edge and cap strips.

Let me know what you think. If there is interest in something like this, I will document the build. Besides, got a digicam for Fathers day, and still haven't used it. Wife is getting miffed. :stupid: Got the kit today, and have to travel for the whole week. Should be able to start the week of the 7th.

I'll wait to hear what you think. Thanks MinnFlyer for the illustrations on the Ailerons and Flaps.

John

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

John:

If it weren't for eight year old daughter I'd have some strange thoughts about you.

But with eight year old daughter I think it's a wonderful idea.

Bill.

Burrito Bandito

Bill,

I'm secure in my masculinity!!!!!

She's gonna love it, and she really likes to help out in the shop, so this will be extra special for her.

John

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

John:

Been through it with two daughters.

Sons (had one) are enjoyable, but there's nothing like making smiles on the face of a daughter.

Bill.

Burrito Bandito

Bill,

Even though it will not have two engines, what do you think of the mod list and potential performance?

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

John:
Ought to look good.
If you can get to the tank without the hatch, the plane will be stronger built without it.

Metal spinner, of course. Dressy planes should have dressy spinners. But I paid about $35 each for the 2 1/2" Tru-Turn with adapter nuts and the three blade cut. SpinRight are $10-12, but only two blade in the smaller sizes.

The turtle deck sheeting will make the plane sturdier for eight year old hands. Good idea.
If your radio can handle it, use about 12" on each panel as flaps, and mix them in as "Flaperons."

You will have to use four servos.

Big advantage, again if your radio can do it, is the ability to reflex the ailerons and get the "Crow" position. Allows screaming dives with instant pull out.

And LE sheeting with cap strips makes not only a smoother wing, it's a stronger wing.

But all this adds weight. You might also want to consider a 60 engine instead of the 46FX.

The OS will pull a 10x6 MAS three blade with authority, and will still do well with the 3-blade 10x8, and I'm sure it will fly the plane with no problem.

But you might want a little more steam even with no mods to the plane.

I envy you the enjoyment of this project with your daughter.

Bill.

Burrito Bandito

Bill,

The ailerons taper toward the wing tips. Twelve inches may be too much as I will lose effective control surface the further out I get....not sure. I have heard a lot of bad press about this plane and flaperons. My plan (after talking to Minnflyer) was to use the torque rods per the plans for the flap arrangement, and then use a single servo for ailerons with nyrods. Keeps the need for multiple servos down and also the weight.

As for a bigger engine, been thinking about that too. Most remarks are that this plane doesn't want to come down anyway with a 40LA. I am hoping that the extra sheeting, the spinner and the 46FX will combine to give a little bit more direct flight characteristic. I hope to build as light as possible, so we'll see. If the 46FX does not do the job I will probably move up into an Irvine 53 or something.

Oh, make no mistake, the little one will not be flying this one for quite some time. Her finishing idea, but definately my plane......<hehehehehe> Right now, she just likes to fiddle in the scrap box and cut with my Dremel Tool (under my supervision). Out at the field, she either plays with some of the other kids or says "mayday, mayday, mayday" whenever someone goes into a flat spin.

How are the duellist's comming? Anyone got any pics up yet of the new super's?

Cheers,
John

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

John:

Are we talking about the sig 4*40? The one with the 60" wing span?

Knock off 4" for the fuselage, add 24" of flaps, that still leaves 16" on each panel for ailerons. Should be more than enough. And I really don't remember the 4* having tapered ailerons, but you are there looking at it.

One place I strongly advise against saving weight is the use of a single aileron servo with remote linkage to operate them. If you have them driven with torque rods from a single servo they're OK, but the linkage will NOT give you consistent neutral, you'll be fiddling with the roll all the time. Either use two aileron servos or forget the flaps. My advice.

You can use a single servo for the flaps, but then you can't mix them in as flaperons. But you can still have "Crow."

Additionally, if you make the flap servo mount wide enough for two servos you can go back later and add another servo if you decide to try flaperons. and still have the "Quad flap" option.

Regards the Super Duellist.

Haven't heard of anyone starting to build, I think they are all like me. Trying to finish current projects. I have just a little more to finish a Twin-Air 45, the Twin-Air 15 is about half way, and the Duellist 2/15 is coming right along.

Then I have another Duellist 2/40 that's going to get the Mk II mods, and a Bridi F7F, and... Haven't finished my RCM 40 yet either. All it needs is the tips finished, join the wing, and hang the aileron servo. Not to mention a Duellist 2/40 wing for which the fuselage has gone missing. Don't look at me that way! I didn't do it! Got this wing from another fellow, he's the one who "Lost" the fuselage!

I will put the Super Duellist on the bench next, wont wait for the other Duellist or the F7F to start it. When the two TAs and the Duellist 2/15 come off the bench the SD goes on.

And I really thought you wanted in on the SD too. A lot of people who expressed great interest didn't send any money, I've had PMs and email from several trying to get in, but they "Just aint no more." Until the kits come out, anyway. Maybe.

So keep us informed about the 4*Barbie.

Bill.

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

Hey, keep it quiet. My wife, age 55, collects those dolls. She has a Barbie room with pink walls, pink carpeting, white trim and white shelves to display her collection. I have the garage, of course.

Trust me, a collector Barbie can cost more than a Saito 100! Let's not give her any ideas about airplanes. That's my area.

Burrito Bandito

Bill,
As always, your thoughts are well reasoned and have caused me to pause and evaluate my options. Thanks for the heads up. I am traveling all week, and only got the kit opened Sunday night for a quick look, but I do believe they are tappered.

Regards, Duellist's....I think you are referring to another gentleman with "Scale" in his handle. I recognized from the beginning that me having a Duellist at this point in my flying abilities would only result in earthen core samples being taken at our field. I have asked your advice several times though on a Twin Otter for electric though........I will try to keep everyone informed of the build. Seems that you and I are the only ones talking about it though.

Ed......A Whole Room full of Barbies! Can me and my daughter drop by to look for a pilot? Bet we could find just the right one to put under the canopy.

John

Burrito Bandito

Ed,

Bill tells me that your wife would shoot me if I came near her barbies! Err....guess that means cutting the head off is out of the question. Hehehehehe.

Seriously though......Could your better half tell me if there ever was an aviator Barbie. I'm thinking leather flying cap and white scarf type, not an airliner captain. If there was something like that, maybe we could find one on ebay or something. But not for $550. I'd rather buy a computer radio or something. Any information she can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Sitting in Portland on business. Wish I was back at my bench, I really want to get started.

Bill, I did go and check it out. The ailerons are tappered, but not terribly. I'm thinking now about 7" of flap using the torque rod and then using dual aileron servo's to allow flaperon mixing if desired. Full flaps and flaperons, should fly it backwards in a breeze........

Burrito Bandito

I meant 17" of flaps.....oops

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

John:

That's still not a whole lot of flap area.

Bear in mind the ailerons, out on the wings, have a lot of leverage.

I'd go for 20" at least, 10" on each panel. But I think I'd have better results with 24" total.

Perhaps Ed can share his thoughts?

Bill.

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

There is an old rule of thumb for airplane design for ailerons which says to use 10%-12% of the wing area for ailerons. Since you are going to cut out flaps from the strip ailerons, why not add a little to the width of the aileron. They are tapered so if you straightened them out, you'd add some area. A lot of it depends on how you fly and what you want to do with the plane. I tend to like a fast roll rate so I try to keep the aileron area larger, but you may not need the extra area.

As for flap size, most of my experience with flaps has been on high wing planes, Stick types and such. On these planes, flaps are very responsive to power. The prop blast is blowing directly on the flap so you are getting harrier-like downward reaction-thrust from the engine. On a couple of low wing warbirds I have flown, I did not notice nearly as much reaction; very little actually. I would say a third to a half of the wing span.

Another thing you can do is to go with shorter flaps and widen the chord. 10" flaps with a 3" chord would be big.

One thing I have done for experimentation is to add to control surfaces with poster board. Fold it over and make an extension, then duct tape it on and give it a try. It's cheap, easy and fun to play with the different sizes.

I second the motion on not using nyrods for aileron control. Servos are too cheap not to use 2 for ailerons. You always get slop in the long nyrod linkages. I don't know about the rest of you, but ailerons not centering drives me crazy.

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

Scale Dreamer,

The wife said there was an Aviator Barbie and my son, who collects action figures, remembers a Flying Aces & Snoopy Barbie so I looked them up.

http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bi...iator%20barbie

Hope this helps.

Burrito Bandito

Ed and Bill,

ED, Thanks for the links. Both look great, but at 35+ bucks I think I'll pass.

Here is an update. When I got back last night from out of town, I couldn't resist, so I just framed up the right wing panel. The thing is falling together. Tonight, I put in the servo mount for the aileron servo and sheeted forward of the main spar. Going to the lake for the fourth, so will not be able to work again until Sunday night or Monday night. I have decided to pass on the flaps. Since this would be my first plane with them, I got a little nervous about making an engineering mistake. Been wanting to do an RV-4, and it has flaps. Maybe later.

If I can figure out how to work this darn digicam, I'll post pics of progress at the begining of the week. Very happy thus far though.

Thank you both and Minnflyer for all of your input as I prepared for this project. The princess is very happy too.

Happy Fourth and please remember our veterans.

John

Lee Belew

My Feedback: (2)

Scale Dreamer
You may have already seen this from a guy in Belgium.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...0&forumid=59m.

I have a 6 year old daughter that I am building a Falcon III. I have been ovserving her level of concentration. and it is not there as yet. I hope by the time she is 8 yrs I can start teaching her to fly.

Note; I asked my 6 yr old if I could have one of her Barbie Dolls to use the head for a pilot. She told me to go buy my own Barbie. So I suppose that is another expense to the cost of the plane.

Scale Dreamer where in West Tenn are you from? I am originally from Huntingdon?

Good Luck
Lee Beleww

runover1

My Feedback: (10)

My 8 yr old loves Barbies too, but she is also learning how to fly now. It is great. Even she is addicted as she says, " My first plane will be dolphins, second will be barbies, 3rd... LOL

Burrito Bandito

Lee,

I did see the thread a while ago. Actually, that is what gave my daughter the idea. When she saw it, she HAD to have one! I'm in Memphis TN.

LOL runover, that's the way my girl looks at it. I may be into "theme" planes for a while if she keeps interested.

UPDATE: Still trying to figure out cam. Framed up fuselage last night after getting back from the lake.

John

runover1

My Feedback: (10)

Hey John,
Do you have a computer radio with a flaperon and spoileron option? My Airtronics RD6000 Super does. Does anybody know if this works great for using ailerons as flaps and if it helps for smooth landings? Please let me know, I would like to try this on my first low wing, and my try it fr my second high wing.

Burrito Bandito

Runover,

I don't have a computer radio yet, but I would like to get one when I need another radio. They are getting pretty competitive. The way I understand it, if you want your ailerons to act as flaperons, you need to have dual aileron servos. On this particular plane, (4*40) I was going to go this route, but in the end opted not to. I am going to have dual aileron servo's, but only for more positive response.

What is your first low wing going to be? If you have not looked at the 4*40, I would highly recommend it. If you go back toward the begining of this thread, you will see some information on the flaperon/flap topic as explained to me by William Robinson and Ed Mooreman. After taking everything into account, it is just not a needed feature on this particular aircraft. Also, try a topic search here on RCU and there will be loads of info for you to review.

Regards,
John

runover1

My Feedback: (10)

It is a Skylark 40 from Stangel Technologies. You can search either on ebay and see them. It is a pretty decent kit for the price. Other RCers have said it looks like the 4*40. I got a really good deal on my radio, then went and bought a Y harness for no reason. It tells me, now that I read the manual, I can configure spoilerons "on" and plug my left aileron into channel 2 and my right into channel 6. I can't wait to try it, and hopefully don't wreck it. Good luck with those pics. I am just now getting the hang of posting with pics.

Parkerm

My Feedback: (6)

It's a long thread and I didn't read all te posts but I modified a 4* 60 wing after flying it for 2 years. A real floater, hard to land, waggled like a limp....I knocked two bays out of each end of the wing and built a 6" tapered wing tip on the end. I was amazed out how well the wing "spilled" the ground effect off the tips and landed like on rails. If I had known it would be that much improvement I would have done it when I built it. It's one of my favorites now.

Burrito Bandito

Update:

Both wing halfs done with aileron servo trays. Fuse is pretty much done. Sheeting the turtle deck was not as messy as I thought it would be......just took some careful measurements, added a fudge factor and sanded away everything else. Spent most of the evening last night shaping the cowl plug. I think it will do nicely.

BTW, I read somewhere that there may be an issue with the wing hold-down area of the wing being weak. The area is hollow between the two ribs. There is trailing edge sheeting there and plans call for a ply doubler to go on the trailing edge. Should I go back, cut in and make that area solid? Or is this much ado about nothing?

Thoughts?

John

DrFun

My Feedback: (4)

Scale Dreamer,

How did you do with the cowl? can you post some pictures, I am building the 4*40 and don't want to do a cowl out of balsa so looking for alternatives.