RE: Not one single kit!
 

What I don't understandis why Kits cost the same and in many cases more than ARF's.
Isn't a kit the same as an ARF before its built? You don't have the cost of labor of building the kit, so I would thing it would be cheaper....

I am new to this hobby and have to admit that my first plane is an ARF. I bought the ARF so I would have something to get into the air
<font class="Apple-style-span" face="verdana">immediatly. I am currently building a kit and having a lot of fun doing it. I have a old CAP 232 kit on the shelf
so I have something to start on as soon as I finish my current kit. I probably will not buy another ARF.
I think that it will mean much more to me to show off and fly the model that I built.
My club as several amazing builders that build kits and also build scratch. I hope to have half the skill that these guys do some day.
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RE: Not one single kit!
 

I must be lucky - or better yet associated with a great LHS. My LHS has 10-12 kits in stock at all times. They include trainers (LT-25 and LT-40), scale kits (P-51, Cessna), fun flying kits (Sig Wonder and Extra), and even a kit for electric flyers (Sig Four Star 20). Mfg include Top Flite, BUSA, and SIG. Granted there are less kit builders but they are still out there buying if the LHS's will stock them.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Threads like this start fairly often. As much as many who read this forum hate to admit it, the demand for kits is terrible.

Mike's hobby shop in Carrollton has some kits on the shelf. Most are the same ones that were on the shelf when I first went there 10 years ago. Four of the ones that are gone were bought by my brother and me. Plano RC is the same. Lou has kits but the same ones have been on the shelf for many years. Neither shop replaces the kits they sell any more because it ties their money up for years.

I like building at times but my rate of one plane every 2 to 5 years is not going to do a lot to support the kit industry.

Most of the people in our club have been in the hobby for 25 plus years. Only a few are still builders. They say their interest has changed and they choose to spend their former building time doing other things.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Flying an ARF is like having a one night stand. No love, shallow, empty. Pretty much sums up our society in general really. One of the many facets of our current failings as a nation, that illustrate the end of this empire.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Your kidding.....right? How many one night stands have you had? :)

RE: Not one single kit!
 

<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial","sans-serif"; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><font size="2">I too used to build kits, with kids, job, and other responsibilities I do not have the time to build a kit (unless I do not
mind taking years, however I do plan on building a kit with my son when the time comes).  To be truthful I do not want to wait years before I am able to fly a new plane.  It is an evolutionary change in the mindset and desires of the masses.  Supply and demand dictate what a manufacturer will produce, the majority of flyers obviously want these ARFs.  I think the pride has, in most cases, gone to the flying ability rather than building. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to universally bash the majority, calling them lazy, I feel is rude and uncalled for.  To do otherwise diminishes the sport/hobby.  

Just my thoughts. 

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RE: Not one single kit!
 

OK, I see the thread has gone the way of the tired old ARF vs Kit, nothing new there either. A kit is full of real wood of usually very good quality. Most of the better kits come with hardware that does not require replacement and will not bend, come loose or break. After building a kit the builder will notice right away it weighs more then the same plane in an ARF. That's because there is real wood and a lot of it in a kit. The builder uses real glue and epoxy during the build. This too adds weight. Some ARFs are better then others but for the most part there isn't much wood in one. I have seen them use something that lookewd like hardened card board instead of wood. They use a hot glue gun to put them together and often forget to even use that. The way I fly an aft will last me about one good season before the air frame is worn out. If I build it myself and I don't do something real stupid like hitting the ground real hard a kit or scratch built plane will be with me for decades.
For most weekend sport pilots that fly once in a while an ARF is just fine. They just don't last very long in my case.
Because this is a building forumyou will notice most builders have become upset with the fact hobby shops no longer stock kits and kit manufactures have gone under or switched to selling there planes as ARFs.
There is nothing wrong with an ARF for most people but builders look down there noses at ARFs, builders take a lot of pride in what they do, often too much pride.
Building isn't about the money, it's about the quality of the finished product.
You see, you can either go out and buy that hunk of crap or build yourself a quality product, if you can locate a kit or build from plans.:D;)

RE: Not one single kit!
 

If kits were mass produced, with the same labor rates as used for ARFs, then yes, they may be a little cheaper. Maybe. Don't forget that with kits, you need to include full size plans (large sheets of paper), and detailed assembly booklets that are much more than what's needed for an ARF. Also, after building a kit, you will have a lot of extra material left over from the balsa & ply sheets. Excesses can be limited much more efficiently with mass produced ARFs, which gives them a raw material cost advantage over kits. Finally, ARFs do not start out as "unbuilt" kits as we might normally think - all of their parts & pieces are designed & optimized to be used for mass production tooling. So... limited production rates, higher labor costs, and higher material rates all combine to make kits as, or more expensive than an equivalent ARF.

Welcome to the hobby!

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I am a boss for a company and have a 8 year old son ,i dont have alot of time either but it only takes a couple hours a week to build a plane . My last build took a year but i got it done and the boy helped me. He is now going to the dark side with helis but i will make time to wrench on it with him. I dont like going to my field or to water funflys and seeing 20 people flying the same arf plane ,gets boring for me and the boy. He helps sand and even cut out parts on my scratch build ,all it takes is a very little time every week my friend. joe

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I 'll gladly keep on buying and building BARF's! I just don't the time, the patience or the room ( I have a tiny living room to build in, no nice workroom) to build. I've built a few small
electric kits in the past and even a 4*40 once, that took me a whole winter to build. Hated every minute of it. Now I like buying planes from people that already have flown them, complete with the servos and engines already installed. And its nice having the money to blow on this stuff!

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Compared to an honest loving relationship, this is perfectly analogous. As far as how many, more than I should have.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

FOr some great airplane kits go to www.classicrchobby.com or www.bridiairplanes.com. Lotsa oldies but goodies for those of us who dont subscribe to instant gratification. go have a look!

RE: Not one single kit!
 

oh yes, and i forgot to mention that they are made in the USA.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Classic is a new one for me but bridi kits i built 25 years ago while flying pattern. thanks for the new one. joe

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Hobbynr - those are some excellent links!<div>I've always wanted a Bridi model, so it's nice to see some of the classics still available...</div><div>
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RE: Not one single kit!
 

The worst part of all of this is almost all of the rc related items we buy are made in other countries. When I started in this hobby it was the opposite, almost all were made in the USA. Now only a handfull are left, Du-bro is one that comes to mind. Even the companies that are based in the usa now have thier models ass. overseas.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I built one of the Killer Kaos kits a number of years ago and was a super flying plane. It is old engineering from a build standpoint, but the wing is a fabulous design.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I agree that so much of modeling is lost with the ARF. The two companies that i mentioned have great kits and their business is expaanding. I have built several of the Bridi airplanes and several of the Classic RC hobby kits. Excellent plans and wood selection is superior. Classic RC Hobby even asks which additional American kits woulod you like to see. Also, nice people to deal with..

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I had been out of the hobby for 10 years, in those short ten years, so much has changed. We built only from kits or scratch builds. Now that I am back here is what I have found, and it's disappointing to say the least. The majority of ARF's are built in CHINA, and that has to stop if this country wants to get back on its feet again. It's just plain laziness, and there is no excuse for not finding the time to build. It's still the same 8 hour work week, if anything else it's how much $$$ a company can  make by out-sourcing models to rc sweat-shops. I am scratch building TWO Gee Bee R-1 racers, and modifying it in the process, and as the other person said, its a HOBBY, something to enjoy building and taking pride in. I take those crashed planes, rebuild them and fly them. When I look on RCU and see models from the $2000.00 - $15,000.00 its just plain NUTS !! Don't know about you, but I have better ways to put that money to better use then to fly a model. Yes, the LHS are suffering, but who is to blame, we are for buying that crap. the LHS are raising prices on the small stuff ($5.00 for four servo screws) to make up the difference. Maybe we need some mom and pop kit builders out there to put the third world country's to shame. Its even hard for me to scratch build because of the costs of small items needed to finish the model is outrageous. And, where are the kids ?? You dont see the kids at the flying field anymore because they cant afford to buy insurance, gas, or a decent model to fly. ALL you see are senior citizens showing off their toys to other senior citizens. Thats not what it's about, and it was a family thing. Comes back to one issue, stop buying CHINA, TAIWAN, HONG KONG, etc., buy balsa, a plan, glue, and build a model with your children, family and friends again. TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA PEOPLE !!

RE: Not one single kit!
 

It's not the Hobby that's changing the people.

The people are changing the hobby.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I don't understand the "no time" argument against kits. <div>
</div><div><span style="white-space:pre"> </span>People have been building kits for 60+ years. Of course there were no ARFT's, but people still did it.  </div><div>I'm 17 and have a very busy school schedule that does not really have no spare time. This includes 7-5:30 for school and transportation, on average an hour of homework and what commonly amounts to babysitting my brother while my parents work. I still find time to build. This building time does not include the weekends either; I fly on the weekends! </div><div>
</div><div><span style="white-space:pre"> </span>All it takes is an hour or so a night. With todays kits, you can easily assemble a laser cut fuselage or wing component in that time. The structure of even a complex model can be put together in a few weeks. From there on it is the same as assembling an ARTF. Give up an hour of TV a day. Involve a child or family member. </div><div>
</div><div><span style="white-space:pre"> </span>The skills are easy to pick up, and most are just common sense. Follow the instructions: You did it with your first ARTF, and chances are, that was a photocopied pamphlet written and edited by a Chinese fishing enthusiast, and then translated to our language by a non-English speaking Bulgarian. The photos were likely taken with a laptop webcam. </div><div>
</div><div>Compare this with the incredible booklets put together by Sig, Goldberg or one of the new laser cut kit manufacturers. Unless you have no access to the gift of sight or the use of hands, you have one of the best building mentors sitting right in front of you when you open the box. </div><div>
</div><div>Technically, I couldn't build a kit before I tried, and unless the doubters do, they will never be able to either. </div>

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Arf's are here to stay, it's where the money is because that's where the market is. Hobby shops and on line retailers are going to stock and sell what people want to buy, it's that simple.

Getting into the hobby today is cheaper than ever before. The hobby will evolve, electrics are taking over, guys can claim glow or gas will never die and they may be right but they are becoming the minority at a lot of clubs.

There are more people in the hobby right now than ever before.

The chances of having a successfully first flight are extremely high today versus yesteryear when a maiden was a white knuckle affair for most fliers.
It's getting rare now a days to see the first and last flight of the over built, over weight, war bird make it from the under speed take off to the snap roll to the resulting crash scattering everyone in the pits.

Now come on, everyone has seen this exact same thing happen at a field near you if you been in the hobby over a few years, or been to Joe Nall at least once. :D

There always seems to be at least one guy in every club that spends all his time building and no time flying and yet wonders why he crashes far more than those pesky Arf fliers do. [:o]

To those who blast those of us that no longer build kits, just what gives you the moral high ground to look down your nose at us? Just because you choose to build a kit or scratch build doesn't mean everyone has to. Some guys just don't have the required skills to do so. In fact most Arf's out there today are far better built than most builders can build.

You want to build from a kit, fine have a grand time.

Please refrain from bashing those that do not, you do not know whether we have the time or space to build or not so don't assume for an instant we're less of a modeler than you are.

Tim

RE: Not one single kit!
 

It is 1.5 hrs to the closest LHS from my town.  I have tons of time on my hands and a reguler income that aint bad.  I have been considering opening my own LHS and have looked into a few distributers.  I know I will not make any money at it but since I spend all my time building anyway, at least it will supply me with whatever I need at the moment.  Plus the 30 or so guys in my local club.  Of course, only about 3 of us build. 
The point I am getting to is when I checked with Great Planes their distributer website shows the requirments to buy wholesale from them.  1 of the requirments is that you have a building in a retail business district.  That kinda shows me a old world way of thinking.  Its kinda like brick and mortar video vs Redbox and Netflix.  I think they may have to rethink the requirments.  I have yet to actually speak to them as I have made no decisions yet.  But my intent is to rent a building in a much cheaper area than the local strip mall.  I already have another 2 businesses in the strip mall and a hobby shop could not pay the rent.  We need to rethink the LHS concept.
BTW, my LHS that is 1.5 hrs away.  They have an awesome selection of ARFs.  Zero kits.

RE: Not one single kit!
 

I love this thread!! Truth for a change[sm=thumbs_up.gif]

RE: Not one single kit!
 

Another good kit manufacturer is Alien Aircraft; there are a few reviews in Model Airplane News of their kits. They are not as expensive as AMR (nowhere near as big) but still good flying kits. Good choice if you are just getting into kits.